Need a little help figuring something out

[SSLance]

Sounds like a cool car Greg, do you have a build thread or any pictures of it posted anywhere?



Regarding caster, I see no ill effects during street driving from the amount of caster I run...many newer cars run similar caster numbers straight from the factory. If you had manual steering with no power assist you may have some parking lot issues but other than that...I say caster away!!!

[Rat Stu]

Sounds like a cool car Greg, do you have a build thread or any pictures of it posted anywhere?

Regarding caster, I see no ill effects during street driving from the amount of caster I run...many newer cars run similar caster numbers straight from the factory. If you had manual steering with no power assist you may have some parking lot issues but other than that...I say caster away!!!

Thanks Lance it has been I fun project. No build thread or posts...it was a bit of a lone wolf / internet stalker build. I am just now starting to meet some people with similar interests.

[Rat Stu]

Sounds like a cool car Greg, do you have a build thread or any pictures of it posted anywhere?

Regarding caster, I see no ill effects during street driving from the amount of caster I run...many newer cars run similar caster numbers straight from the factory. If you had manual steering with no power assist you may have some parking lot issues but other than that...I say caster away!!!

I got plenty of steering assist..I still have the 18 or so inch original steering wheel on top of the power steering! I did put in a quick ratio box out of MCSS so I am not having to grab extra huge hand fulls of wheel in the corners.

Did you end up using different caster/camber setting for the street vs course? I would like to find a compromise that would be ok for each.

[SSLance]

I change almost nothing between street, autocross and road racing, little bit of shock adjustment sometimes and tire pressure adjustments is all.

[Ron Sutton]

This is being done way later than I had hoped to have done this, and on a iPad of all things, but wanted to give some feelings on Lance Hamiltion's Ron Sutton setup SS Monte Carlo "Barney"

I will start off by saying I have driven over 35 different cars in autocross, I've won nationals pro solo, match tour, and champ tour, but never the national championship, and this is only the second vehicle that was a frame instead of unibody, the other one being a late 70's ford pick up with a big block powered by propane.

I prefer racing on R comps, but have had my fair share of time on street tires and even some stock cars. The newer tires are starting to bridge the gap between street 200 two and r comps. The reason I'm mentioning tires first is because I feel the biggest thing holding Barney back from being faster are the falken tires. I know the sponsor a lot of stuff , I know they are the only wide tires below 18", I know they are cheaper, but if you really want to compete , car needs some 18" wheels and Bridgestone RE-71R or BFG rival S (still haven't driven on these yet). /end tire rant.

As for the car itself. It drove down the road like a dream, I love that it has a 6 speed, it looks amazing, has great tq and is a great balance of road tripper, show car, and race car. The softer spring rates helped the car from being skippy or darty on rough surfaces, and the car never felt like it would snap ones sending it into a slide. At first autocross run I was originally feeling the car would be "too soft" but was quickly surprised by how the car responsed through the slalom, it had roll but it still did exactly what I wanted and without drama.

The only maybe issue other than tires I had was we need to adjust the shocks a little to help on throttle off rotation, and I feel the rear diff might be too aggressive on its lock up giving the car some in need sliding where I should just smoothly go around.

Other than that Barney was great! I want to thank lance again for letting me borrow the car for the cam challenge, and thank Ron Sutton for helping with the setup and opening my eyes on making the big girl handle.

Glad you had fun in the big girl!

Lance's next step will be reducing the roll angle even more, making it run flatter & be more responsive.

P.S. Since you drove it, he has upgraded to 18" Forgeline wheels & Bridgestone RE-71R tires with great results.

[Ron Sutton]

Ron,
Another huge thank you for all of your time, effort and good will providing the wealth of knowledge in this thread.

My car is a 1960 Studebaker with a 79 malibu front clip. I just took it to my first track day ever last week. All the drivers were newbies so it is hard to judge my car's abilities but I was in the middle of the pack not far behind the camaros and vettes. I was very pleased since this is a budget build that I did myself while learning to weld and building my first motor.

Its not a dedicated track or AutoX car. I like driving it on the street..when I don't have it torn apart. So should I be shooting for similar caster numbers to Lance? I can currently get about 4.75 degrees while keeping the camber correct. I plan to align the LCA mounting holes this winter and I am wondering if I should move the lower bj forward at the same time. If the holes are close I may just use some of these new arms you are talking about.

Up front the car has inexpensive circle track tubular UCAs, 1/2 inch tall ball joints top and bottom, stock LCAs, QA1 single adjustable coilovers with 500# springs and a 7/8" rollbar. The camber curve may be too aggressive as I lowered the LCA mounting holes 1/2" also. The car weighs 3200# with me in it and the 400hp sbc. The rear is a Monte 7.5 inch unit that I mounted to the Studes leaf springs and non-adjustable shocks. I also added a track bar to keep the wheels from hitting the fenders.

I am also debating whether or not to buy the Performance Trends software to dig a bit deeper. I did allot of work on a RC calculator spreadsheet that I put together last winter but without having any end goals I found I was just obsessing over the numbers and never getting out to work on the car.

Thanks Again,
Greg

Hi Greg,

I can't tell you an absolute caster number to run ... on any single set up criteria as an absolute ... without you working out your entire setup. The problem with asking one guy for a caster number ... another for a camber number ... another for a spring rate ... another for toe setting ... another for sway bar rate ... etc, etc ... is the combination ends up being a mismatched hodge podge with handling result that range from poor to evil.

I would suggest you work out your set-up as a whole ... either on your own with a software like Performance Trends ... or with an experienced setup person.

As far as caster goes ... I can tell you ...
a. How much you need is affected by the spindle KPI, camber strategy, car's roll angle & level the car is driven at.
b. Old school setups ran a lot of camber ... 2.5° static plus ... and lots of camber gain ... and very little caster ... somewhere around 3°+/-.
c. When I work out "modern" setups ... I usually have the caster 2-3.5° higher than the KPI of the spindle ... with less camber.

Best wishes !

[Rat Stu]

Hi Greg,

I can't tell you an absolute caster number to run ... on any single set up criteria as an absolute ... without you working out your entire setup. The problem with asking one guy for a caster number ... another for a camber number ... another for a spring rate ... another for toe setting ... another for sway bar rate ... etc, etc ... is the combination ends up being a mismatched hodge podge with handling result that range from poor to evil.

I would suggest you work out your set-up as a whole ... either on your own with a software like Performance Trends ... or with an experienced setup person.

As far as caster goes ... I can tell you ...
a. How much you need is affected by the spindle KPI, camber strategy, car's roll angle & level the car is driven at.
b. Old school setups ran a lot of camber ... 2.5° static plus ... and lots of camber gain ... and very little caster ... somewhere around 3°+/-.
c. When I work out "modern" setups ... I usually have the caster 2-3.5° higher than the KPI of the spindle ... with less camber.

Best wishes !

very good advice Ron...

The missing piece for me is an overall direction. I have calculated of the roll centers, camber curves, weight distribution etc, but all it does for me is tell me where they are now. I have no idea what the end goal should be. I believe they are better that before but I have no idea what to do to make it closer to optimum.

Does the Performance Trends just give me more analysis of my existing setup or does it help with an overall strategy for moving forward? Or is an experienced setup person the only way I am going to figure that out?

Thanks again
Greg

[Ron Sutton]

very good advice Ron...

The missing piece for me is an overall direction. I have calculated of the roll centers, camber curves, weight distribution etc, but all it does for me is tell me where they are now. I have no idea what the end goal should be. I believe they are better that before but I have no idea what to do to make it closer to optimum.

Does the Performance Trends just give me more analysis of my existing setup or does it help with an overall strategy for moving forward? Or is an experienced setup person the only way I am going to figure that out?

Thanks again
Greg

Hey Greg,

Without sounding like a self promotion ... the best way for you to learn what you need ... would be to attend one of my workshops this year. I have a 5 year tour planned & every year my topic is different. The topic this year covers everything you need to know about dialing in optimum geometry for your car ... as well as how to work up your suspension set up (springs & bar rates) and your alignment (caster, camber, KPI, etc) for optimum contact patch dynamically on track. Then I cover the secrets to increasing grip. Lastly, we cover how to tune at the track for neutral handling & balance.

Not only do we cover every important aspect of suspension geometry, such as Ackerman, Anti-Dive, Roll Center Migration, Camber Dynamics, Caster Change, Jacking Effect, Tire Slip Angle, Motion Ratios, Bump Steer, Contact Patch Dynamics ... I share which ones matter ... why they matter to your performance ... what your targets should be ... and how to physically achieve them. This is all in plain car guy language & everyone "gets it."

The first 3 sold out in Indiana, Ohio & North Caroline. There are only two left are:
* Fort Worth, Texas on Thursday, Sept 29th (Day before big Goodguys event at Texas Motor Speedway)
* Las Vegas, Nevada on Wednesday, Nov 2nd (During SEMA & before optima Finale at Las Vegas Motor Speedway)

More Info: http://www.ronsutton-racetechnology.com/
Tickets: http://shop.ronsuttonracetechnology....pping/?ic=6106

[Rat Stu]

Hey Greg,

Without sounding like a self promotion ... the best way for you to learn what you need ... would be to attend one of my workshops this year. I have a 5 year tour planned & every year my topic is different. The topic this year covers everything you need to know about dialing in optimum geometry for your car ... as well as how to work up your suspension set up (springs & bar rates) and your alignment (caster, camber, KPI, etc) for optimum contact patch dynamically on track. Then I cover the secrets to increasing grip. Lastly, we cover how to tune at the track for neutral handling & balance.

Not only do we cover every important aspect of suspension geometry, such as Ackerman, Anti-Dive, Roll Center Migration, Camber Dynamics, Caster Change, Jacking Effect, Tire Slip Angle, Motion Ratios, Bump Steer, Contact Patch Dynamics ... I share which ones matter ... why they matter to your performance ... what your targets should be ... and how to physically achieve them. This is all in plain car guy language & everyone "gets it."

The first 3 sold out in Indiana, Ohio & North Caroline. There are only two left are:
* Fort Worth, Texas on Thursday, Sept 29th (Day before big Goodguys event at Texas Motor Speedway)
* Las Vegas, Nevada on Wednesday, Nov 2nd (During SEMA & before optima Finale at Las Vegas Motor Speedway)

More Info: http://www.ronsutton-racetechnology.com/
Tickets: http://shop.ronsuttonracetechnology....pping/?ic=6106

Come to the midwest (Minneapolis) and I'm all over it!!

[SSLance]

I live in Kansas City and I drove to Texas last year to attend Ron's seminar and I'm flying to Vegas this year to go again. It is by far the best part you can buy for your car...

[UMI Tech]

I had a chance to ride in Barney with Lance this past weekend. Here are my thoughts:

This car is a street car that just so happens to rip on track. To be honest it feels like you're on a Sunday drive if that drive happens to include stellar grip in nearly every situation. It's comfortable and quiet yet has the legs to run with 5th Gens, new Mustangs and the occasional C5. When circulating at Putnam Park you could tell the car was very capable and was right at home on track day.

The best part was Lance asking me to drive the car back to the hotel to save him some trailer loading time. Barney feels almost like a bone stock Monte Carlo SS except for none of the squishy bad habits these cars have. I wouldn't be afraid to hop on Power Tour or One Lap in this thing.

Lance and Ron Sutton hit this one out of the park.

ramey

PS it has some UMI on it - had to throw that in there.

[SSLance]

Thank you for the kind words Ramey, that means a lot to me. Always fun to hang with you, Ryan, Craig, Roger and Jerry at the track...never a dull moment for sure. Here's a little clip of the video I took while Ramey was riding with me on track. Not only were we broadcasting on facebook live during the session, but after Ramey was describing a better tactic for me to use in the upcoming hairpin turn...he decided to answer an incoming phone call while we were out on track! It was freaking hilarious!!



This video was taken during the 3rd session in the rain, so we were only running 6 or 7 tenths at most...but it was still fun to stretch Barney's legs with Ramey in the car.

This video was taken during the 2nd session when I ran my best laps. The first lap is a 1:23.672, 2nd is a 1:24.875 and my high speed was 122 mph. I'm still learning the new setup under the car along with the new tires and especially when to take full advantage of them during a run session.




This video shows my best couple of laps in the 4th and final session. I ran very similar times, middle 1:23s but the car was low on fuel and fuel starving on the straights (you can see and hear it nose over about the start finish line) limiting me to about 115 mph top speed. That just shows how much faster I was getting through the turns in that session.





The next day we autocrossed... The day was cut short by weather, only 3 dry laps in. Here was my best which put me right at mid-pack something I'm pretty proud of considering the competition.



The car still needs some help, there are some big plans for the future...I just need to get some other priorities lined out and finished first before we start on Stage 6 or 7...wherever we are now. Huge thanks to Ron Sutton for helping me get it this far, can't wait to see where it goes next.

[Ron Sutton]

I had a chance to ride in Barney with Lance this past weekend. Here are my thoughts:

This car is a street car that just so happens to rip on track. To be honest it feels like you're on a Sunday drive if that drive happens to include stellar grip in nearly every situation. It's comfortable and quiet yet has the legs to run with 5th Gens, new Mustangs and the occasional C5. When circulating at Putnam Park you could tell the car was very capable and was right at home on track day.

The best part was Lance asking me to drive the car back to the hotel to save him some trailer loading time. Barney feels almost like a bone stock Monte Carlo SS except for none of the squishy bad habits these cars have. I wouldn't be afraid to hop on Power Tour or One Lap in this thing.

Lance and Ron Sutton hit this one out of the park.

ramey

PS it has some UMI on it - had to throw that in there.

Thanks for the kudos Ramey. I always tell everyone that asks about Lance's Monte Carlos SS ... that the car isn't trick, race car-ish or cutting edge. Just everything has been made "right" in that car. Geometry, spring & bar rates, shocks. To me, Lance's Monte is a true "Pro-Touring" car you can drive all you want ... and still be pretty sporty on the autocross track.

Glad you & Lance got to hang out. Would have been fun to join you but I had another group of fun people & fast cars to hang out with this past week at Thunderhill. Good times.

[RookieRacer]

Lance, save me from re reading this thread again (it was enjoyable the first 2 times) to find this answer; would you be so kind as to say what the spring rates were when stock and what they ended up being.

[sik87gn]

Looking forward to seeing Stage 6 or 7 and learning a few more tricks for my car!

[SSLance]

Lance, save me from re reading this thread again (it was enjoyable the first 2 times) to find this answer; would you be so kind as to say what the spring rates were when stock and what they ended up being.

Okay...but it'll just be a guess. :D Pretty sure the stock front spring rate is in the 525-550# range and the rear is 125#. When Ron and I started I had the DSE front and rear springs in which were 575# and 175# I believe.

I've had 600# front springs in the car since going with coilovers and have had anywhere between 175# to 600# rears springs in the car (600# currently).

[Norm Peterson]

I doubt that the stock front springs were anywhere near 525. The Moog replacement spring catalog lists #5606 for the front, which is 420 lb/in. Rear spring number was #6321 (118 lb/in) or could be #5379 (121 lb/in). The rates of GM's original part numbers might be a few percent different, but I doubt it'd amount to over 20 lb/in difference up front or 10 lb/in out back.


Norm

[RookieRacer]

Thanks to both of you. I was curious because one of your early autoX video showed lots of body roll and wallowing and later ones looked more "race car" and I was wondering how much spring/bar that took.

[SSLance]

Norm would know better than I, I'd go with his numbers. Don't forget, I also put a massive front sway bar on it... 1.5" OD, 3/8s" wall tube, and to be honest...it needs even more sway bar. Stay tuned for later stages... :D

[Ron Sutton]

Okay...but it'll just be a guess. :D Pretty sure the stock front spring rate is in the 525-550# range and the rear is 125#. When Ron and I started I had the DSE front and rear springs in which were 575# and 175# I believe.

I've had 600# front springs in the car since going with coilovers and have had anywhere between 175# to 600# rears springs in the car (600# currently).

Lance, you know there are brains melting when you say you have 600# springs in the rear.

Just to share ... why don't you outline the rear spring rate you were running before the 600# rear springs ... then explain the handling differences?

Ron