Need a little help figuring something out

[Norm Peterson]

Do you think that any of the with-passenger improvement is due to a subconscious tendency to drive a little smoother specifically because there's somebody else in the car?


Norm

[SSLance]

No, if anything I drive a bit more aggressive with someone in the car with me.

I might get a bit tight if I have veteran in the car with me, trying to not screw up in front of the teacher...but with everyone else I typically just let'er rip.

I do tend to take earlier runs solo and passengers in later runs which is probably a bit of a factor. The car just handles differently with someone in that seat though, in a good way. I'll get that fixed at some point. I'm certain it will be faster handling properly with a couple hundred less pounds in the car.

[dutch55]

Lance,

Do you have any still photos of the car cornering at the limit taken straight at the front of the car? I am interested in measuring the roll angle with a protractor.

[SSLance]

The Safety Stewards will not let the photographers set up in direct line with a cars coming out of a corner (which is a good thing).

This one is about as close as I have seen with the new setup under it.

[Ron Sutton]

I'm back on the forum guys, so if anyone has questions ... post'em up !

[SSLance]

Lance,

Do you have any still photos of the car cornering at the limit taken straight at the front of the car? I am interested in measuring the roll angle with a protractor.

Had another one taken at yesterday's event that is pretty much straight on from the front.

[Ron Sutton]

The Safety Stewards will not let the photographers set up in direct line with a cars coming out of a corner (which is a good thing).

This one is about as close as I have seen with the new setup under it.

I know you're just focused on your driving currently. But the car still looks like it needs less camber & more caster ... or less roll angle ... as we discussed with harder sway bar bushings & solid end links.

Also, I suggest you get the sides balanced both on scales & geometry. It will provide a more consistent driving experience to learn with.

[SquareV8]

OK. Got a rack and pinion question. Being I am new to building a car, I need all the help I can get. How will I know what the turning radius of my car will be with a Mustang II power rack and pinion? How will I keep tye tires/wheels from rubbing on my frame with this setup? I was used to regular steering boxes with steering stops, I know my questions sound stupid, but I have to ask.

[Ron Sutton]

OK. Got a rack and pinion question. Being I am new to building a car, I need all the help I can get. How will I know what the turning radius of my car will be with a Mustang II power rack and pinion? How will I keep tye tires/wheels from rubbing on my frame with this setup? I was used to regular steering boxes with steering stops, I know my questions sound stupid, but I have to ask.

Not stupid at all. I don't want us to hi-jack Lance's thread, so let's keep this short. There are a LOT of ways of "figuring" it out. But the simplest way with the car in the shop is to steer the wheel/tire combo ... from centered & straight ... until the tire hits the frame (or just before) ... each direction ... and measure the angles, along with how many inches the tie rod end moved out from center. Then measure your rack travel. If the rack travel is equal or more, then you'll have the same turning radius. If the rack travel is shorter, you'll want to test that tie-rod end travel and see if you're OK with that steering radius. 25° is fine for track cars. Autocross guys like upwards of 30°.

[SquareV8]

Thanks for the info Ron.

What is the best tool/way to measure the angle and rack travel for the home builder?

[SquareV8]

OK.nother dumb question. My project car should weigh between 2500 and 2800 pounds. It has a 94.5" wheelbase. I am running Mustang II front suspension, narrowed 9" Ford triangulated 4 bar, sbc 350/330 horse and a 700R4 trannie. Power steering or manual? I have disc on the front and drum on the rear. Power brakes or manual? I need all the advice I can get

[oldtinsmith]

Wow Lance! Great post! After reading this and talking to you, I decided you were right! I just signed up! Thanks my friend!

Doug

[SSLance]

I just had a very interesting weekend with my car. Saturday I attended a SCCA Starting Line Autocross school taught by Jenny Williams, Heyward Wagner, John Hunter and Craig Wilcox...all very experienced autocrossers and instructors. The school was patterned after the Evolution Performance driving schools and featured an oval setup which converted into a figure 8, a slalom setup, and then the afternoon session was making runs on an autocross course.

The students were split up into 2 groups and 2 instructors were assigned to each group. The instructor would get in the passenger seat, tell us what to do with live instructions, then get in the driver's seat and SHOW us what to do in our cars, then get back in the passenger seat and instruct us some more. Lots of repetition over and over and over again to learn what they were teaching and put it into play.

It rained... My time on the oval was dry, but as our group moved to the slalom it started to rain. The class kept going because we autocross in the rain, why not learn in the rain. We then broke for lunch (I had to make a quick run to get some gas if that gives you any indication how much we ran during the morning). Then as we started the afternoon session on the autocross course, it REALLY started to rain. At one point the lightening got too close so they pulled the workers off of the course, one of the instructors got in his car and went to the back stretch watched for cones and would flash his lights at the start for the next car to go. Here is a picture I took while sitting in my car waiting for my turn at the course.



Yes, that is a car coming off the course in that weather!!!

If you want to learn how to make your car grip to it's maximum level, what better way to do it than in rain like that!!

It did let up some by the time I ran but it was still very wet. Here were my last two runs on the course after my instructor Heyward had gotten out of the car to go on to the next student.



I was taught Saturday exactly how to make transfer the weight where it needed to be to make the car stick. Period...

It was eye opening to say the least. I never touched a shock, tire pressure, worried about my line...nothing. All we worked on was transferring weight to make the car work.

The car performed great. 3 of the 4 instructors all got time in the car, 2 of them drove it in different conditions...and they all were very impressed with how well it worked. Heyward said to me "This car just works". Big thanks to Ron Sutton for that...

At Sunday's race, it was time to put all that learning into motion. My first two runs were off a bit, on my second run John Hunter got in the passenger seat with for the first time (the instructors came back on Sunday to the event on their own time, had a little race competition between themselves and also rode with a bunch of racers to help them as well, how cool is that?). After the run he told 1 or 2 things I could do to tighten things up. My next run I shaved over 2 seconds off my time...from a 51.70 to a 49.6! Again, never touched the car once. All driver...

Here's the run I picked the 2 seconds up on.



I ended up 23rd in Raw time out of 113 drivers...

http://www.kcrscca.org/results/solo/...event5_raw.htm

What I learned this weekend was more important though...if the driver transfers the weight properly, this car just flat out works, rain or shine.

Big shout out to Ron Sutton for the help with the setup and to the SCCA Starting Line School Program, they put on a fantastic school in the very worst conditions possible...and taught 24 of us SO MUCH about getting the most out of our cars on the course.

[oldtinsmith]

Very cool videos Lance! I watched them and thought about how FUN that must be!

Doug

[Ron Sutton]

Nice Job Lance !

Second in class & 23rd in Raw time out of 113 other cars & drivers. That is a SWEET list of cars you beat with your ... wait for it ... 85 Monte Carlo. Awesome job !

[oldtinsmith]

Lance,
Every time I watch your videos, I find myself with a big grin and thinking how much fun that's got to be! Now, I want to throw a question at you (please don't duck because I'd like your opinion!).
As you know, I've got a bare El Camino frame in my shop. I've keep looking at the posts (#168 & #171) about correcting the LCA geometry (the buckets or receivers for the LCA's). Ron mentioned that the car needed to be at its final rake angle before correcting the LCA axis to horizontal (or slightly nose down toward the front). ... Do you think, or know, if the LCA axis could be achieved with the frame off the car (and it being for a high performance street car? Thanks,,,,and continue having fun driving your SS!

Doug

[SSLance]

Man, I'm not sure Doug. I guess it could be if you knew exactly what the ride height was going to be at all 4 corners and you figured out some sort of jig to hold the frame in that exact location securely while making any changes necessary. I'm not sure how you could determine what changes to do to the LCA pivot points without getting a baseline first though...and it seems to me that the car would have to be at least partially assembled to do that.

My frame had an issue with the LCA pivots being different from left side to right side when measured with the car in full trim at ride height. I'm certain that most cars have some sort of this same issue, the degree will vary from car to car though. While correcting that issue that was affecting my handling...we just took it a step further and really made it better since we were already knee deep into fixing the original problem.

And trust me, I'm having a ball driving this car now...

[oldtinsmith]

Lance,
I can understand your reply in post #317. What I can't see (you know me, I can't see the forest for the trees! LOL) is correcting the LCA mounting bucket geometry to the ride height and rake of your body on frame measurements and after all that, you installed adjustable (to change weight balance at each wheel, ride height and or rake) coilover shocks w/ springs. My plan was to make a fixture to hold the frame level and square before grinding and welding the factory seams and boxing the frame channels. I certainly want things done right the first time (if possible) and not having to do things a second or third time!... Oh, I think I saw a post somewhere that you changed the body bushings on your Monte and you used Polygraphite. Is that correct, and if so, any comments?

Doug

[SSLance]

You may be able to do what you want to do on the bare frame first, I'm just not sure how you'd pick a starting point. Maybe you can get there by taking measurements on your existing frame on the car and transferring them over to the new frame. That's pretty far above my pay grade though. I think you'll need the measurements of all of the pivot points of the front suspension in order to optimize them all.

Because we had done all of that on my existing setup, we knew the ride height we were going to run once it was all done. The adjustable spring perches (and later coil over springs) were used to get the car to the ride height we wanted from the start.

[Ron Sutton]

Lance,
I can understand your reply in post #317. What I can't see (you know me, I can't see the forest for the trees! LOL) is correcting the LCA mounting bucket geometry to the ride height and rake of your body on frame measurements and after all that, you installed adjustable (to change weight balance at each wheel, ride height and or rake) coilover shocks w/ springs. My plan was to make a fixture to hold the frame level and square before grinding and welding the factory seams and boxing the frame channels. I certainly want things done right the first time (if possible) and not having to do things a second or third time!... Oh, I think I saw a post somewhere that you changed the body bushings on your Monte and you used Polygraphite. Is that correct, and if so, any comments?

Doug

Hi Doug !

As long as you have adjustable ride heights via coil overs or spring adjusters ... and know what height & rake you want the chassis to ride at ... then you can absolutely do this with the body off the frame.

Just for giggles ... if you decide you want the ride height to be 5" in the front (say at the outer tip of the frame dog leg behind the front tire) ... and 5.5" rear (at the dog leg in front of the rear tire) then just cut some blocks to hold the frame at that height.

The only tricky thing is your floor is not level. So where ever you plan to place the "ride height blocks" ... mark the floor and use a level to figure out how much those spots vary & cut your blocks accordingly, so the frame is truly level side to side & the front-to-rear rake is accurate & consistent side to side.

P.S. Don't use my numbers. They're just so we could discuss it. Pick your own ride height numbers.