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    1. #281
      Join Date
      May 2011
      Location
      Northwest, MO
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      101
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      I believe that my front end would be considered a “Tweener” setup. Taking actual shock travel measurements at an event or by simulating event conditions is a priority once the weather is better. But for now I can only estimate based on videos, pictures, and jouncing the front end that my front shocks can compress and extend about 2.5” each way.

      I have a few holes for adjustment in my motion ratio, but the current setting is approximately a .578 ratio so I think that would mean almost 4.25” of compression travel at the wheel? That’s with the 4.1” stroke coilover (10.125” compressed & 14.225” extended) running a 10” tall 2.5” ID 450 lbs/in spring.

      I have the long stroke coilovers on the rear, but the axle bottoms out on the frame notch after just 2” of compression. That’s with the 6.9” stroke coilover (13.125” compressed & 20.025” extended) running a 12” tall 2.5” ID 150 lbs/in spring.

      I have managed to scrape the front cross member (4 ¼” static ride height) on a few occasions, and I had to slightly raise the ride height with the Scout II body compared to the truck body to keep from ripping my rocker panels off.

      I wish I had my own set of corner scales, but I do not so in the past I have had to rely on borrowing a set from a local racer for a small fee or using the ridetech booth at shows. The only time I have corner scaled the setup with the Scout body was using ridetech’s scales at a show. An accurate race weight with driver was 2,805 lbs, but the front to rear split was not accurate because the scales were not 100% level but slightly downhill. Based on this, I think 1,460 lbs on the front and 1,345 lbs on the rear are good ball park estimates. I hope to get more accurate numbers soon.



      I am also battling a somewhat high scrub radius due to running an 11” wide wheel with just 4.25” backspacing. Using the method in post #77 scrub radius measured 4 13/32”

      Finally, the S10 spindle steering arm geometry has always annoyed me because it’s front steer and the arm is actually angled forward toward the centerline of the front of the frame because the tie rod must clear a tire (for small diameter stock style wheels) or in my case the wheel itself. Moving the tie rod end outward any further will require shortening the steering arm at least an inch or two so that it can clear the rim lip and barrel, but I have not quite been able to determine whether this is feasible or not.
      Tyler Gibson

      There's nothing like building up an old automobile from scratch and wiping out one of these Detroit machines... That'll give you a set of emotions that will stay with you... Know what I mean? Those satisfactions are permanent...


    2. #282
      Join Date
      Oct 2011
      Location
      Philipsburg, Pa
      Posts
      528
      Country Flag: United States
      Hey Tyler.

      Side note: I know if you showed up at my oval track shop with your truck you'd be welcome to my scales anytime.

      ramey
      Technical Support
      UMI Performance, Inc.
      [email protected]
      814.343.6315

      Join us on Facebook!

    3. #283
      Join Date
      Nov 2012
      Location
      Sacramento, CA
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      1,918
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      Quote Originally Posted by AutoX_a_Truck? View Post
      Hi Ron, I sent you a PM, but I am not sure if it went through but I also see you are busy starting a business. I have ridetech Triple Adjustable Coilovers on my Scout II, which uses a modified S10 front suspension somewhat similar to a g-body. I have aftermarket control arms and other components, but obviously my S10 based setup is currently less than ideal compared to some of the other high dollar stuff out there. When building my hot rod most of the parts and design fell into place based on what was available or what fit. My Dad and I recently mapped out the front suspension, which revealed slight differences side to side, probably from factory tolerances and 30 years of abuse. Anyway, without further hijacking this great thread, I have had a heck of a time trying to eliminate push in the middle of corners, particularly tight autoX corners. This thread inspired me and gave me hope that I might be able to wring quite a bit more out of my budget setup.
      Glad you have "hope." If you want to discuss your numbers, set up & handling issues, start a new thread & PM me with a link.


    4. #284
      Join Date
      Aug 2012
      Location
      Peoria, AZ
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      1,758
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      During the tail end of last season's racing after the installation of Stage 2 of Ron's setup on my car, one thing that kept holding me back from really experiencing the true results from all of our work was having unequal or inadequate tires on my car. On the street I was running smaller (245/40/17s) brand new BFG Rivals on the front and wore out 275/40/17s Nitto 555s on the back and to try to equal things out and get a bit more traction on the autocross course I was running race used cast off 275/60/16 Hoosier A6s on all four corners.

      Racing with the Hoosiers allowed equal grip on all four corners and they stuck pretty well, but the size of them, especially being mounted on 16" wheels wasn't the most optimum solution either, plus towards the end of the season I'm certain they had been cycled a few too many times and were giving up grip as well.

      I was looking for a 200 TW tire to run on all four corners since I'll be racing in the Classic American Muscle class this year on street tires, but the options were limited because of my 17" rims and I wasn't too fond of the idea of replacing all of my wheels just to open up my tire choice.

      I finally decided to buy two more 17x9.5" wheels that match my current wheels and four Falken 615K 275/40/17s and I'll run all four of them for a square setup during my race days this upcoming season. Having the same wheel and size of tire on all four corners will help me keep their wear even by allowing rotation plus help with shock setup. Also, I still have my 8" rims with the almost new Rivals on them that I can mount on the front for street driving to help reduce the wear on my Falkens. This is the first time in over a year that I'll have a brand new set of matched tires with equal grip on all four corners of the car. I got the tires mounted up last Friday and installed over the weekend. I was able to get a little bit of road testing in and man, what a difference new tires make. I can't wait to get to a Test N Tune to really dial in the shock settings with the new gription on both ends of the car and really begin to feel what this car will now do.

      Here are some comparison shots of the old vs the new, first one shows the old Hoosier A6 on the right and the new Falken on the left.







      As you can see they are very similar in overall size, the actual tread width on the Falken is about a half inch wider than the Hoosier. The huge difference is in the sidewall height. I'm betting that these Falkens will grip just as well as the Hoosiers did at the end of last year. I know already that the street manners are a big improvement with them.

      Here are a few more pics of them installed on the car.







      Other projects also completed in the off season to address deficiencies found with the car last year include replacing all of the 28 year old wore out body bushings with new PolyGraphite bushings (and repairing two frame mount holes), repairing a leaky rear axle seal, replacing the power steering pump and adding a PS fluid cooler, and extending the front upper control arms bolts to allow for better front alignment specs to be reached. I also replaced all of the front brake components while upgrading the calipers to Afco 2.75" piston units and the pads to EBC YellowstuffR.

      The car is roadworthy once again and I still plan on four corner weighing the car to fine tune the coil over spring heights for proper weight balance and putting it on a digital alignment rack for one final fine tuning of the alignment before our first event April 6th. There is talk of an opportunity for a Test N Tune possibly in the next few weeks where I'll dial in the ridetech Triple Adjustable shock settings to work with the rest of the off season enhancements...then I am looking forward to a season of racing the car without having to deal with a different setup in the car at nearly every event. .

      I plan on working on the driver more this year than the car...I'll keep everyone posted on how that goes during the year.
      Lance
      1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car

    5. #285
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      Aug 2012
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      So all of the rest of my pertinent off season improvements are done now and in place so now it's time to fine tune the corner weights.

      Ron if you have time and check in on this thread, can give me (us) a quick overview of what I should be looking for and the best plan to achieve the results we need? I'll most likely be heading to a friend's shop and borrowing his scales and floor jack, so I'll weighing and making the adjustments there.

      I don't imagine that it will be a big deal, the car was pretty even side to side the last time I weighed it and I haven't changed much weight wise since.

      I'm assuming say the LF and RF are 1075# and 1025# respectively, I would tighten or raise the RF spring adjuster a bit, effectively putting more pressure on the spring and more weight on that tire? Where I'm a bit unclear is how the rear weights play into this equation (wedge)?

      Or is it more of a scenario of looking at all 4 corner weights and then figuring out which one to raise or lower to make both the front and rear balanced side to side?

      And how close to balanced side to side should I be looking to get it? With all four corners adjustable, will I be able to dial the weights in to a gnat's arse side to side no matter how unbalanced the car is to start out?

      Looking forward to your input on this when you have some free time.

      Thanks,
      Lance
      Lance
      1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car

    6. #286
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      Lance - it's probably better if you can adjust each of all four corners a little than to try to do it all at one corner. This results in smaller changes in geometry and available suspension travel if nothing else. You'll be increasing corner weight at two diagonally opposite corners and decreasing it at the other two.

      You can't alter the left side (or rear) percentage of total weight unless you physically move stuff around.


      Norm
      '08 GT coupe, 5M, suspension unstockish (the occasional track toy)
      '19 WRX, Turbo-H4/6M (the family sedan . . . seriously)
      Gone but not forgotten dep't:
      '01 Maxima 20AE 5M, '10 LGT 6M, '95 626, V6/5M; '79 Malibu, V8/4M-5M; '87 Maxima, V6/5M; '72 Pinto, I4/4M; '64 Dodge V8/3A

    7. #287
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      Nov 2012
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      Quote Originally Posted by SSLance View Post
      So all of the rest of my pertinent off season improvements are done now and in place so now it's time to fine tune the corner weights.

      Ron if you have time and check in on this thread, can give me (us) a quick overview of what I should be looking for and the best plan to achieve the results we need? I'll most likely be heading to a friend's shop and borrowing his scales and floor jack, so I'll weighing and making the adjustments there.

      I don't imagine that it will be a big deal, the car was pretty even side to side the last time I weighed it and I haven't changed much weight wise since.

      Looking forward to your input on this when you have some free time.

      Thanks,
      Lance


      Hi Lance,

      Glad to help …

      Let's start with getting the scales level & located properly to achieve accurate numbers. I use a what is called a scale platen to roll the cars on that has been leveled in every direction & locked down. Most guys don't have access to something like this, so let's talk about how to properly scale a car on the garage floor.

      Tip #1: Take your time & get this right. The info that comes out of this is only as good as the accuracy of the scaling.

      Tip #2: Yes, 1/8" is a big deal. I've seen garage floors off 1/2".

      Getting the scales ready ...

      a. Find spots on the garage floor to match the track width & wheel base of the car. IIRC yours is 108" wb … 58.9" front track width … and I don’t remember the rear track width but figure it out. Place the scales in a rectangle on the floor, dead center to those measurements.

      Using a laser pointer or long, straight, non-bowed, stiff piece of tubing, make sure the scale pads are square to each other. Use blue masking tape to outline the four sides of the scales ... in the exact location they need to be on the floor. Now, during the process, when you knock scales around, you can always go right back to the correct spots.

      b. All 4 scale pads need to be at the exact same height.
      Using a laser level or long, straight, non-bowed, stiff piece of tubing & a level (digital is preferred as it will be more accurate) ... determine which pad is highest. Then using 16"x16" vinyl floor tile squares (Home Depot?) ... and thin pieces of 16"x16" sheet metal of different thicknesses ... shim the low pads to match the height of the tallest pad.

      c. You want the pads themselves to be level too. So if the floor dips so much it causes a scale pad to sit at an angle, you may want to pick another spot, or put shims under the low end.

      You want to end up with the scales:
      * Centered for track width & wheelbase
      * Level & level to each other
      * Square to each other & outlined with tape

      Grease Plates:

      Anytime you jack & lower the front suspension, the tires will "bind" from rubber friction on the scales. This will sometime move the scales ... sometimes not. But it will always give you false ride height & scale numbers. So you need to prevent this "tire bind."

      Make four square pieces of thin sheet metal somewhere around 12"x12" to 15"x15". I use .040" thick aluminum, because we have it around the shop often. Put a fine, thin, even film of grease on one side of two plates. Lay another plate on top of the greased up plates ... and you have two sets of "grease plates."

      Lay these centered on top of the scales for the front tires.

      Now you can move the scales (shims & all) out of the way ... roll the car into place so the tires are centered in the tape squares ... jack one side (or one end) of the car up & place the scales in their tape boxes ... repeat on the other side (or other end).

      In the real world, the car never ends up centered and the scales and/or grease plates are out of their boxes. Jack & move stuff until the scales are in their boxes & all four tires are centered on the scales & grease plates.

      Prepping the car:
      a. Put the fuel level in it you plan to compete with.
      b. Air the tires up to the pressure you plan to compete with, or at least the same.
      c. Put weight in the driver seat to match the driver's weight with helmet & gear.
      d. Make sure the tires are dead true straight ahead. If you have toe-out, make sure both are evenly toed out.
      e. For now … unbolt one side of the sway bar linkage, on both front & rear bars, so they don’t affect our numbers.
      f. Mark a spot on the frame at all 4 corners where you will measure ride height … and measure ride height before you start. Write them down.

      Now, you can read the scales & see where you are. Write these numbers down, before you start making adjustments. I suggest you write down all your ride heights, adjustments & scale readings (with dates) from those changes and keep in a file folder. You'll need the info someday.

      Ok … before we make any adjustments … are the car's ride heights level side to side? If not, we need to fix this & the weights together. Never tweak on the adjusters to “hit a scale #” without keeping the ride heights correct. I prefer to get the ride heights even side to side … and the desired rake front to rear … then tune on the adjusters to achieve my scale numbers.

      Here’s how …assuming your ride heights are even side to side:
      • If you need to add cross weight (make the LR & RF heavier) adjust the spring adjusters to raise the LR & RF … and to lower the RR & LF … by the same amounts.
      • In other words if you turned the spring adjusters to raise the LR & RF by 1 full turn … turn the spring adjusters to lower the RR & LF by same 1 full turn.
      • This will keep the ride heights “pretty close”.
      • When you get down to the gnat’s eye, you’ll need to tweak them individually … but not by much.
      • We almost always keep the ride heights level side to side for road course & autocross competition. There are exceptions, but not worth discussing here.



      Quote Originally Posted by SSLance View Post
      I'm assuming say the LF and RF are 1075# and 1025# respectively, I would tighten or raise the RF spring adjuster a bit, effectively putting more pressure on the spring and more weight on that tire? Where I'm a bit unclear is how the rear weights play into this equation (wedge)?

      Or is it more of a scenario of looking at all 4 corner weights and then figuring out which one to raise or lower to make both the front and rear balanced side to side?

      And how close to balanced side to side should I be looking to get it? With all four corners adjustable, will I be able to dial the weights in to a gnat's arse side to side no matter how unbalanced the car is to start out?

      We only care about the numbers with the driver ... unless it's going to be a drone.

      So for discussion sake, let’s say the scales read ...

      LF 1075# RF 1025#
      LR 900# RR 900#

      Results:
      3900# Total weight
      53.85% Front Weight Bias
      50.64% Left Side Weight Bias
      49.36% Cross weight or “wedge”
      * As a “standard” tuners add up the weights of the LR & RF for a percentage.


      This is where tuners differ. Some will adjust the spring adjusters to achieve 50.0% cross weight.

      That would look like this:
      LF 1062# RF 1038#
      LR 913# RR 887#
      * Remember, check your corner ride heights.

      Results:
      3900# Total weight
      53.85% Front Weight Bias
      50.64% Left Side Weight Bias
      50.00% Cross weight or “wedge”

      The problem with this strategy is the heavier left side weight will make the car roll less & have more grip on left hand corners & roll more & have less grip on right hand corners. An ideal solution would be to physically move weight from the left side of the car to the right side of the car.

      Because ultimately an autocross or road course track car will perform best if the side-to-side weight bias is 50/50 … and the cross weight is 50/50. But for many street cars, that is not practical. The best “compromise” solution that will produce the best handling (if the left side is heavier) is to run less cross weight than 50%.

      I’d love to tell you the formula is XYZ. But in reality, every car is a bit different. I do however have a proven rule of thumb. And that is the cross weight & left side weight need to add up to 100.0%. So if the car’s left side weight (with driver) is 50.64% … then we need to reduce the cross weight from 50.0% to 49.36%.

      Hey wait a minute … that’s where we started in this example. Yup … the 50.64% Left Side Weight Bias & 49.36% Cross weight kind of balance each other out. It’s just an experienced starting point. Because you have other factors in your car that may make it have more grip one direction & less grip the other.

      So driving it hard in autocross competition & tuning it are what I suggest to achieve optimum balance for your car. More cross weight (heavier loaded LR & RF) will add grip turning left & free the car turning right. Less cross weight (heavier loaded RR & LF) will add grip turning right & free the car turning left.

      You … and everyone with adjustable spring heights … have the ability to fine tune this and achieve the best balance.

      After you scale it, post your numbers & let’s discuss it.


    8. #288
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      Nov 2012
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      Sacramento, CA
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      Quote Originally Posted by Norm Peterson View Post
      Lance - it's probably better if you can adjust each of all four corners a little than to try to do it all at one corner. This results in smaller changes in geometry and available suspension travel if nothing else. You'll be increasing corner weight at two diagonally opposite corners and decreasing it at the other two.

      You can't alter the left side (or rear) percentage of total weight unless you physically move stuff around.


      Norm
      Agreed.

      .

    9. #289
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      Peoria, AZ
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      Thanks Ron, that gives me a better understanding of what I'm gunning for here.

      So cross weight or wedge is always LR + RF / total weight and the goal is to get the cross weight % plus the left side weight % to add up to 100%.

      We have a private autocross test n tune scheduled for next Monday the 17th on an asphalt parking lot where we'll have a full course set up with timing equipment and all day to make runs, make changes, and see the effects on the times.

      We then have a test n tune at MCC where we run our normal events on April 5th the day before our first official event on the 6th.

      Hopefully I can get it weighed and primarily adjusted this week before the first tuning session, then test for left vs right turn grip there. I've got the ride heights set exactly where we like them and the fronts and rears are even side to side already. Hopefully it doesn't take too much adjustment from there.

      Do the shock settings matter when weighing? Should I have them set at the race settings or is it okay to weigh it with them set on the street settings? Since I'm borrowing the scale setup (and will most likely do it at my friend's shop) I'm hoping to get it done as quickly as possible to keep the hindrance level to a minimum for him. Busy time of the year here for sure with everyone trying to get their race cars ready for the season.
      Lance
      1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car

    10. #290
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      Quote Originally Posted by SSLance View Post
      Thanks Ron, that gives me a better understanding of what I'm gunning for here.

      So cross weight or wedge is always LR + RF / total weight and the goal is to get the cross weight % plus the left side weight % to add up to 100%.

      We have a private autocross test n tune scheduled for next Monday the 17th on an asphalt parking lot where we'll have a full course set up with timing equipment and all day to make runs, make changes, and see the effects on the times.

      We then have a test n tune at MCC where we run our normal events on April 5th the day before our first official event on the 6th.

      Hopefully I can get it weighed and primarily adjusted this week before the first tuning session, then test for left vs right turn grip there. I've got the ride heights set exactly where we like them and the fronts and rears are even side to side already. Hopefully it doesn't take too much adjustment from there.

      Do the shock settings matter when weighing? Should I have them set at the race settings or is it okay to weigh it with them set on the street settings? Since I'm borrowing the scale setup (and will most likely do it at my friend's shop) I'm hoping to get it done as quickly as possible to keep the hindrance level to a minimum for him. Busy time of the year here for sure with everyone trying to get their race cars ready for the season.
      The shocks usually have no affect on the scaling, unless you have them on full stiff rebound. If you have them on your "race setting" ... you may want to set the settings to soft & put them back when you're done.

    11. #291
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      Hey everyone,

      I have to take a break on this thread for the next few weeks while I catch up on projects.


      I'll check in occasionally, so PM me if you have something urgent that can't wait.

      Otherwise, I'll be back on here April 1st.




    12. #292
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      Aug 2012
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      Well, the first event of the year is under my belt and the offseason improvements on the car helped tremendously. My initial goal was to have the car run as fast on the new Falken Street tires as it did on the Hoosier A6 slicks I ran on last year and that goal was easily met. There are so many things that these new tires do better but mainly it's just in the feel of the car. Way less sidewall really improves the reaction time of the tires and makes it easier to drive.

      Ron's help in picking out an upgrade to the brake package worked good as well. Last year I fought rear tire wheel hop under hard braking all year long, last weekend not a hint of that...ever. I had to learn how to completely re-adjust my braking zones, extending them deeper and deeper as the brakes were working so well I was scrubbing way too much speed off before and into the roll thru zone. The driver really has to work on his timing now to make the car faster and faster, but we are getting there. Love the EBC YellowStuffR pads on the front, once they get a little heat in them they really whoa the car down great and they don't seem to be as abrupt as the Porterfields I ran last year letting the driver be smoother on initial braking. They don't dust up nearly as much as the Porterfields either and work great for street driving too.

      The body bushing upgrade...I'm certain it is helping, but I can't really say exactly where. I know this, the car is completely predictable in left hand turns as well as right handers, there is very little difference in feel between the two. The chassis being firmly connected to the body and in an overall stiffer state probably contributes to the consistency of the feel more than anything else.

      I made 13 runs at the test n tune on Saturday and 4 runs in Event #1 on Sunday and I only made 2 changes to the rebound on the rear ridetech shocks from the settings I ended with last year and one change to the rebound on the fronts. With Ron's help I'm really starting to get how just a slight change in the shocks changes how they react on the track. Seems like to me right now I just need to put all of the timing together to make the car handle at it's optimum...braking at the very last possible moment, only braking enough to set the nose but not scrubbing too much speed off in the roll thru zone, and waiting until I start to unwind the steering wheel before getting back on the gas again. If you don't do all of this in the proper time frame, one thing can mess up the other.

      For instance, picking up the throttle while the front tires are still turned will make the car push...then you have to wait for them to grip before you can go again. Or slowing down too much in the roll thru will let the front shocks start to rebound before you are thru the crucial mid part of the corner.

      The driver is really starting to learn that in order for the car to work best, all of the above has to be timed well. That is what I'm working on this year.

      BTW, in case you haven't seen my other thread we picked up a class win in Event 1 nipping the second place car by 0.128 seconds. Here's the video of my four runs in Event 1





      Lance
      1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car

    13. #293
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      Watching the way you're moving around in the seat in that video (3rd run in particular), the OE 3-point belts aren't nearly enough any more. The easy answer is a harness and a roll bar, but a chest strap you can make up from an old seat belt is a viable sort of midway solution for autocross (where there's little likelihood of ending up shiny side down).

      I wouldn't wear a chest strap on the street or on a road course, but I cut mine long enough to wear it as a supplemental lap belt on the track that helps keep the OE 3-point from going slack, and I offer the same supplemental restraint to my instructors. They haven't turned the offer down.


      Norm
      '08 GT coupe, 5M, suspension unstockish (the occasional track toy)
      '19 WRX, Turbo-H4/6M (the family sedan . . . seriously)
      Gone but not forgotten dep't:
      '01 Maxima 20AE 5M, '10 LGT 6M, '95 626, V6/5M; '79 Malibu, V8/4M-5M; '87 Maxima, V6/5M; '72 Pinto, I4/4M; '64 Dodge V8/3A

    14. #294
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      Yeah, I know Norm... Really struggling with what to do in that regard.

      Sunday was also the first time I really noticed a bit of difficulty getting my hands into the right position on the steering wheel. There were several spots on that course where I had to cross them over to make the turns I needed, I actually started planning ahead before the elements and moving my hands around on the wheels so they'd be in a better spot during the element.

      Faster steering box and a smaller wheel might have moved up the wish list a bit as well.
      Lance
      1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car

    15. #295
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      You can also get mechanical "steering quickeners" at the various circle track supply houses . . .


      Norm
      '08 GT coupe, 5M, suspension unstockish (the occasional track toy)
      '19 WRX, Turbo-H4/6M (the family sedan . . . seriously)
      Gone but not forgotten dep't:
      '01 Maxima 20AE 5M, '10 LGT 6M, '95 626, V6/5M; '79 Malibu, V8/4M-5M; '87 Maxima, V6/5M; '72 Pinto, I4/4M; '64 Dodge V8/3A

    16. #296
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      Tell me more about this "Chest Strap"... Do you have any pictures of one in use?
      Lance
      1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car

    17. #297
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      Easy enough to get a couple of pictures when you're retired

      The sewing is crude, but there isn't a whole lot of load to be carried (and it might be better if the supplemental restraint gave way a bit anyhow). There are two such stitched blocks as I overlapped the belting a few inches. The second area can be seen under my right arm in the first picture. That's actually made up from one of the front 3-point belts that came out of the Malibu, which in turn were replacement belts for that car. Flame will seal the cut ends and keep the belt material from unraveling.


      Norm
      Attached Images Attached Images    
      '08 GT coupe, 5M, suspension unstockish (the occasional track toy)
      '19 WRX, Turbo-H4/6M (the family sedan . . . seriously)
      Gone but not forgotten dep't:
      '01 Maxima 20AE 5M, '10 LGT 6M, '95 626, V6/5M; '79 Malibu, V8/4M-5M; '87 Maxima, V6/5M; '72 Pinto, I4/4M; '64 Dodge V8/3A

    18. #298
      Join Date
      Aug 2012
      Location
      Peoria, AZ
      Posts
      1,758
      Country Flag: United States
      Thanks Norm...I hope to be in those shoes as well sooner than later.


      What do you do, just wrap that around your chest and the seat back and cinch it down before your run?
      Lance
      1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car

    19. #299
      Join Date
      Nov 2002
      Location
      state of confusion
      Posts
      1,499
      Country Flag: United States
      That's about it, other than it being the last thing you do before pulling into line. You might not be able to reach everything with it clicked, and you do want it to help keep the OE shoulder strap from sliding at all.


      Norm
      '08 GT coupe, 5M, suspension unstockish (the occasional track toy)
      '19 WRX, Turbo-H4/6M (the family sedan . . . seriously)
      Gone but not forgotten dep't:
      '01 Maxima 20AE 5M, '10 LGT 6M, '95 626, V6/5M; '79 Malibu, V8/4M-5M; '87 Maxima, V6/5M; '72 Pinto, I4/4M; '64 Dodge V8/3A

    20. #300
      Join Date
      Aug 2012
      Location
      Peoria, AZ
      Posts
      1,758
      Country Flag: United States
      Racing in the rain

      A recap of what I learned both in car setup and driving style for racing on a damp or completely soaked, standing water race track this weekend past.

      For those that don’t normally autocross with the SCCA, a typical race event give you just 4 (or sometimes 5) chances to score your fastest time on a course that you have never driven on before. You run in heats and when it is time for your heat group to run, you head out to the start in order of how you are in grid and in our case anyway, there is typically about 10 minutes of downtime back in grid before it’s time for you to head out to your next run. What this basically means is you better have your car ready to go before your first run and any adjustments that you make to the car need to be done quickly in between runs. And lastly, you only get a handful of chances to get both the car…and usually more importantly the driver…ready for your runs.

      This was my first time are really trying to be competitive on what looked like was going to be a wet racetrack. I talked with Ron Sutton a couple of times beforehand about what to expect and possibly what changes to make to the shocks to compensate for the wet track. Our game plan was this…for a damp but not fully soaked or actually rain falling track, adjust all of the valves on all of the shocks half way between my race setup and fully soft. If it was actually raining and track was covered with standing water, go full soft on everything.

      The suspension on my car is designed to let the car pitch and roll to a predetermined spot where the tire contact patch and weight distribution is optimized for the element the car is going into. We spent a LOT of time getting the shocks and spring rates (along with the rest of the suspension geometry) set and adjusted to maximize this, which on a dry course is firmly planting all four tires on every element we hit and it works real REAL well.

      The thought process was that on the wet track, there would be less overall grip therefore the shocks would need to be softer to allow the car to still pitch and roll fully to the predetermined spot.

      I was set to run in heat 2 Sunday. We had rain off and on all morning long while getting ready, then the sky parted and the wind picked up and started drying off the track for heat 1 drivers. They all got 3-4 runs on a slightly damp to almost completely dry track before it started sprinkling again…their 5th runs were on a mostly wet track. Then it stopped raining again. There was a delay switching over to heat 2 drivers and frankly we were all stalling as long as we could hoping the wind would keep drying the track off for us. When we headed out for our first runs, the track was damp, but it had not rained in a while. Not knowing what to expect, I put my typical race setup on all 4 shocks and made a run. I was surprised at the grip available…the tires stuck pretty well and I felt I left a lot of time on the table. I was happy. Then…while in grid…it started sprinkling again. When the windshield was completely wet, I jumped out and adjusted the shocks to halfway between my race setup and full soft and made my first run in the rain.

      Front
      Low speed rebound -8/-14 (this means I took 8 clicks out to go from -6 to -14 clicks from full stiff)
      Low speed compression -4/-19
      High speed compression -6/-21

      Rear
      Low speed rebound -10/-14
      Low speed compression -4/-19
      High speed compression -24

      The car felt horrible to put it bluntly, by the second element I knew I was in trouble but wasn’t sure exactly how bad yet…then I divebombed into the lefthander before the slalom and just slid the front tires under braking to almost the grass before I got it turned into the slalom. It had NEVER done anything like this before. Then into the slalom on the second cone the car rolled so much that it hit the bumpstops pretty hard and disrupted the car again. At this point I had to back off and just try to keep the car on the track for the rest of the run. Hindsight…I went way too far softening the shocks up which let the suspension travel right past the predetermined optimized spots. There was just still more grip there than we thought there might be. I guess you don’t know until you try. These ridetech shocks have SO much adjustability in them that I have to learn to take smaller swings at changes on them. Changing a valve 8 or 10 clicks is a dramatic change to them, not to be taken lightly.

      On a side note here, last year there was a lot of concern when some driver’s shock’s settings were messed with during an event and the drivers were very upset with the danger the perpetrator put the drivers in. I didn't really grasp at the time just how dangerous this was…I now fully do. When you head into an element at full speed expecting your car to do the same thing that it always has…and it doesn’t…it is VERY dangerous and I have a new perspective on this now.

      Back in grid, fully disgusted with everything, the rain, the car, the day…I decided to put the shocks back to my race setup which I knew felt pretty decent on my first run in the damp. Then it began to really rain. It got increasing worse on my next 3 runs, but I got better. I was figuring out how to drive the car in the rain and it was doing pretty good. I didn't adjust on the shocks anymore because frankly, I didn't want to get out of the car and get soaked. I knew a class win was unreachable at this point as Patrick had already put a great time down in the dry in heat 1 so it was all just about fun driving in the rain and learning.

      On my 5th run, Jeff who was gridded next to me got in for a ride and we put down a lap almost 2 seconds faster than any of my previous wet laps. This leads me to another observation.

      Remember the predetermined spots that we have the suspension set up to hit on elements? Well, my current ride height has the car sitting level with nobody in it. When I get in the driver seat the driver’s side goes down a ½ inch front and rear. This changes all of the travel and predetermined spots to hit. Ultimately the car should sit level with me in the passenger seat and all geometry settings set off of that initial ride height. By the time I figured this out, I didn’t have the time to reset everything and I typically have a rider with me on a lot of runs anyway…so I left it be.

      Having run two full weekends now with a lot of time in the car on this setup, I will say that my fastest times on every course have come with a passenger in the car with me…usually almost a full second faster than my best runs in the car by myself. This is because the weight in the passenger seat sets the car level at ride height and it hits all of the predetermined spots correctly on each element on the course. When an already big fat heavy car can go even faster with an additional 150-200 pounds in the passenger seat, it drives home the fact of just how important getting the geometry correct is to making a car run faster times. I’ll be correcting this in the future but in the meantime I don’t seem to have trouble finding willing passengers to add ballast as everyone that rides in the car is grinning or flat out laughing by the end of our runs.

      Loving the car, loving the setup and can’t wait until May 4th for our next event to race it again.

      Here is the video of Sunday’s runs…

      Lance
      1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car

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