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    1. #41
      Join Date
      Dec 2008
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      Blanchard, Ok
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      111
      Country Flag: United States
      Quote Originally Posted by badazz81z28 View Post
      "It takes a lot of work to make a "muscle car" handle as well as a stock Honda Civic"


      WTF? What Civic have you been driving? I have driven a civic...BS.
      Gotta agree with you. Honda Civics are the Bic lighters of modern cars. They are inexpensive, purpose built, gas saver, commuter cars. They have extremely simple suspensions built to handle gentle driving. I put some 5 leaf mid-eye leaf springs, new coils up front, subframe connectors, sway bars, and KYB shocks on my 68 Mustang and it corners better than any stock Honda Civic. That's a fairly standard, easy (done in an afternoon) modification. If go DSE or Hotchkis or something along those lines, the Civic is toast.

      Brad Bickers
      '67 Camaro, Blueprint 383/ 700r4


    2. #42
      Join Date
      May 2010
      Location
      New Zealand
      Posts
      198
      Country Flag: New Zealand
      Quote Originally Posted by skooli View Post
      Gotta agree with you. Honda Civics are the Bic lighters of modern cars. They are inexpensive, purpose built, gas saver, commuter cars. They have extremely simple suspensions built to handle gentle driving. I put some 5 leaf mid-eye leaf springs, new coils up front, subframe connectors, sway bars, and KYB shocks on my 68 Mustang and it corners better than any stock Honda Civic. That's a fairly standard, easy (done in an afternoon) modification. If go DSE or Hotchkis or something along those lines, the Civic is toast.
      Depends what sort of stock Honda Civic you're talking about!

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      No sound deadening, lightweight glass, Recaro Seats....sounds a lot like the 2014 Z/28 Camaro...only this was 15 odd years ago

      As much as I hate to admit it, I would be over the moon if my project handles as good as one of these ^^^, and that's with a C6 based front and 3 link rear. Having driven one, on a track, on RA1's, I can qualify the statement.

      Thankfully acceleration is another story altogether
      Chris

      68 El Camino - Street Track Drag - in progress..

      Toyota Station Wagon - only thing that actually runs....

    3. #43
      Join Date
      Dec 2011
      Location
      santa rosa calif
      Posts
      71
      Country Flag: United States
      forget the newer gtr's they are a rich man's toy 90 grand and every time you go to the track you get a set amount of time in the track position on the ecu they you have to take it to nissan for a 2000.00 tune and fluid change .don't get me wrong a x friend has one they are damn fast over 520hp in his but the 140 k he has invested in his is gone forever .

      most american classics will never loose what you put into them is they arn't molested to much

      also remember weight = horsepower so that 200 lbs beergut does make the car look slower i love the show but damn guys it you can't turm the wheel cause the guts in the way move the seatbrackets

    4. #44
      Join Date
      Dec 2004
      Location
      HILLBILLY HOLLYWOOD, TENNESSEE!!!
      Posts
      2,041
      I Vintage raced a 66 Shelby GT 350 for 7 years. The cars best lap time at Road Atlanta with me driving was 1.44. The car weighed 3300 lbs with my big ass in the car. 347 Cheater stroker motor that dynoed a little less than 450 HP, Expensive Goodyear tire the whole shooting match trick suspension that was "somewhat" vintage. The car would run almost 165 MPH bumping the rev limited down the back straight based upon our gearing and redline.

      My 69 Datsun 510 weighed 2150 lbs with my big ass in the car. The car had a 2 litre engine that dynoed 238 HP (Bad Ass) for 2.0 litre vintage Datsun. The car was over 30 MPH SLOWER than than my Shelby down the back straight at Road Atlanta. The cars best lap time at Road Atlanta with me driving was 1.44. BOTH cars ran the same lap time with the same driver at the same track.

      The Datsun would STOP & TURN. What a novel idea. Yes the Shelby had the HP, the sound and it was fun to drive in Group 6 with all the other Balls to the Wall Corvettes, Shelby's, Porsche's, Jaguars and the like. The Datsun 510 was far MORE FUN to race and a much better race car. So much so that I sold the Shelby a car my friend Mark and I built from scratch!

      The cars were a totally different driving experience. They both ran the same lap times with the same driver and one car was over 30 MPH SLOWER than the other car. It's not about total HP its more important to be able to STOP AND TURN! Two TOTALLY DIFFERENT DRIVING cars with the same driver turning the same lap time at the same track. As a side note the Datsun was also a LOT CHEAPER to maintain & race. It gets old fast paying $1200 a set for tires for the Shelby that you hope will last the weekend when other guys use 2-3 sets a weekend. The Datsun Toyo race tires would last all race season!

      I also sold the Datsun over a year ago. WHEN I buy another Vintage Race car rest assured it will not be a big ole American Trans Am type race car. It will probably be another Japanese two time winning Trans Am car (1971-1972). A Datsun 510!

      Small & quiet does NOT mean it's not FAST!
      Mike

      Remember, "Drive Fast, Turn Heads, Break Hearts!"

      www.musclecardeals.com

    5. #45
      Join Date
      Dec 2008
      Location
      Blanchard, Ok
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      111
      Country Flag: United States
      Also if anyone has ridden motocross, you know racing is more driver than machine. You won't dive into a corner faster than you are comfortable. When you do the results are counterproductive like spinning out or running off the track. So at times the slower vehicle is actually easier to turn faster lap times. And in the case of some of the cars on the show, I think they may have more motor than their brakes and suspension are set up for.
      Brad Bickers
      '67 Camaro, Blueprint 383/ 700r4

    6. #46
      Join Date
      Aug 2008
      Posts
      137
      Country Flag: United States
      Quote Originally Posted by XLexusTech View Post
      Yes they are... that WRX... would have wiped the floor with 90% of those cars given equal footing... ( i don't believe 700 HP R&D car with a pro driver is a fair comparison)

      How about this put Ken Block is a WRX with stock suspension and a little clutch and turbo tweaking... He would smoke 100% of the PT cars including any pro Driver...

      Dont get me wrong, these are apples and oranges.. what we do with these Antiques is really amazing... it just doesn't measure up to what Big auto has done in the same 40+ years... we can get close... but it just doesn't compare... IMHO
      Sadly this is pretty fair information...If you look at OUSCI the GT-R and the lightly modified EVO finished TOP 5 vs Pro-touring cars that have tons of work and well over $100K in them. A used Evo with $10-15 K in suspension, brakes, tires and motor/tuning would be really really hard to handle with equal drivers. Sucks but light weight and AWD with just a little power is REALLY REALLY competitive.

    7. #47
      Join Date
      Oct 2011
      Location
      Peru, IN
      Posts
      118
      Quote Originally Posted by Finch View Post
      Question is which one makes better TV, Just fast enough or never see the two cars in the same frame from the drop of the green?

      Maybe by the end of the series that question will be answered,,,until then I am not telling
      Exactly! My suggestion is to eliminate the roadcourse and add something simililar to the speed stop challenge, but do it side by side. This would a) keep both cars in the frame and b) eliminate the chance of the cars running into/hindering the other's performance.

      Or maybe revise the format somewhat and have them pick the competition and have them compete at 3 different skills. Speed/stop, Roadcourse, Drag Race.

      Building a GN to carve corners and travel long distances. *inprogress* Ridetech Coil-Over Tru-Turn Suspension, custom paint by child's tricycle handle, Baer Brakes, 6152turbo, 2800stall, Lonnie Diers Transmission, factory installed T-Top water leak, Casper custom harness, hanging on for dear life vacuum line setup, homebrew ported heads, Translator2, AEM TruBoost control, Good looks by GM, oil and gas by fossils, slightly understanding wife mod, Praise Jesus it runs installation, and Baer Brakes for the 'whoa.' R.I.P. Powermaster 1987-2004.

    8. #48
      Join Date
      Jan 2006
      Posts
      1,748
      Country Flag: United States
      Quote Originally Posted by Finch View Post
      Question is which one makes better TV, Just fast enough or never see the two cars in the same frame from the drop of the green?

      Maybe by the end of the series that question will be answered,,,until then I am not telling
      Ok so since the show is over (hopefully just for the season), are you telling now Brian??
      GeoffP
      68 Camaro - LS1/T-56

    9. #49
      Join Date
      Aug 2007
      Location
      Roanoke (FortWorth) Texas
      Posts
      786
      Quote Originally Posted by bishir View Post
      Exactly! My suggestion is to eliminate the roadcourse and add something simililar to the speed stop challenge, but do it side by side. This would a) keep both cars in the frame and b) eliminate the chance of the cars running into/hindering the other's performance.

      Or maybe revise the format somewhat and have them pick the competition and have them compete at 3 different skills. Speed/stop, Roadcourse, Drag Race.
      Pro Solo

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zANaacY50yE

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzzRSRgtr1o
      Chris

      Total Cost Involved - Ridetech - Fatman - Total Control Products - Gateway Performance - MaverickMan Carbon

    10. #50
      Join Date
      May 2008
      Location
      Toronto
      Posts
      213
      Country Flag: Canada
      It's TV, not a real competition.
      It has to be fun for viewers not necessarily participants.
      Wheel to wheel is way more exciting to watch than timed runs.

    11. #51
      Join Date
      Dec 2006
      Location
      oshawa ontario
      Posts
      1,607
      Country Flag: Canada
      Wheel to wheel also introduces racecraft into the equation, which adds pressure and another dimension to deal with for the competitors. I find timed events fun to do but boring to watch.
      Nascar 69 Chevelle project, 1999 Hutch Pagan Nascar chassis, 69 Chevelle body,700hp, Penske's, slicks, roadrace track day https://www.pro-touring.com/showthre...le-Cup-project
      89 Iroc 406 Fitech 5 spd
      01 chevy 2500HD 4x4 8.1 Allison
      31 Scarab 2 x 454

    12. #52
      Join Date
      Apr 2013
      Posts
      27
      Country Flag: United States
      Quote Originally Posted by skooli View Post
      Gotta agree with you. Honda Civics are the Bic lighters of modern cars. They are inexpensive, purpose built, gas saver, commuter cars. They have extremely simple suspensions built to handle gentle driving. I put some 5 leaf mid-eye leaf springs, new coils up front, subframe connectors, sway bars, and KYB shocks on my 68 Mustang and it corners better than any stock Honda Civic. That's a fairly standard, easy (done in an afternoon) modification. If go DSE or Hotchkis or something along those lines, the Civic is toast.
      hondas are no good, my 73 camaro was much faster than an entire integra club thru a canyon known for racing. I will be buying the full hotchkis setup for it soon, but there is no way a solid axle on leaf springs is going to handle as well as my 2006 nissan 350z with IRS, coils and some crazy multi arm suspension.
      the cars in this show however are back halfed custom coil overed cars. the year one car, or the dse cars have to be more expensive to build than to buy a new gtr. i would like to see more newer american muscle cars like 2000+ camaros and gto's. those would be better comparisons to a bmw or mitsubishi. There has to someone out there with a new mustang willing to race for them. also where are the corvettes? a built c5 could be a good race for a gtr.

    13. #53
      Join Date
      Jun 2010
      Location
      Deployed
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      3,280
      Country Flag: United States
      Quote Originally Posted by Jok3r View Post
      hondas are no good, my 73 camaro was much faster than an entire integra club thru a canyon known for racing. I will be buying the full hotchkis setup for it soon, but there is no way a solid axle on leaf springs is going to handle as well as my 2006 nissan 350z with IRS, coils and some crazy multi arm suspension.
      .the cars in this show however are back halfed custom coil overed cars. the year one car, or the dse cars have to be more expensive to build than to buy a new gtr i would like to see more newer american muscle cars like 2000+ camaros and gto's. those would be better comparisons to a bmw or mitsubishi. There has to someone out there with a new mustang willing to race for them. also where are the corvettes? a built c5 could be a good race for a gtr.
      The Yearone car...Maybe, but I highly doubt that Brian's or Kyle's Camaros cost more to build than a brand new GTR. If I had to guess....$50K-$60K. They probably have more into them over the years with engine/transmission swaps...upgrades etc...But to build a car the way they have it now? I would say $50K

      Camaro $3-5K
      DSE Front $10K
      DSE Rear $10K
      LS7 $15K
      Magnum $3K
      Misc $15K
      1970 Camaro/DSE build


      Are you driver enough? Maybe....come on blue!
      https://www.pro-touring.com/threads/...71#post1147371

    14. #54
      Join Date
      Dec 2005
      Location
      Birmingham, AL
      Posts
      3,356
      Country Flag: United States
      Quote Originally Posted by badazz81z28 View Post
      The Yearone car...Maybe, but I highly doubt that Brian's or Kyle's Camaros cost more to build than a brand new GTR. If I had to guess....$50K-$60K. They probably have more into them over the years with engine/transmission swaps...upgrades etc...But to build a car the way they have it now? I would say $50K

      Camaro $3-5K
      DSE Front $10K
      DSE Rear $10K
      LS7 $15K
      Magnum $3K
      Misc $15K
      I know your numbers are rough estimates, but you are sitting at 65k plus before safety and wheel, tires and brake components. Not to mention paint. Some of that would be covered by your miscellaneous category, but not all of it.
      Stephen

    15. #55
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      Mar 2013
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      2
      Country Flag: United States

      R they really that Fast?

      I don't think you guys understand how easy it is to make "enough" power with these light weight cars. I have several friends with 10sec EVOs making 500+Hp they don't get on road courses to the best of my knowledge because that's just not big in my area. The GT-R is a race car. It runs with the big dogs (lamborghini goulardo porsche GT3, ferrari F430) right out of the box. As for hondas not handling, they are always at the top of the list in world touring. i have a good friend with a 2011 civic Si with a supercharger making 411Hp at the wheels and still averages 41mpg. All those used bmws and audis just need an ecu intake and exhaust and they can add an extra 100hp easy. I have a Saab 9-5 that made well over 350hp with hardly anything done to it but it now sits with a bad crank because well... that's what they are known for. Power to weight is the key in any form of racing. With light the weight you don't need the power. But many of these imports have the power with light weight.

    16. #56
      Join Date
      Dec 2006
      Location
      oshawa ontario
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      1,607
      Country Flag: Canada
      Quote Originally Posted by AE fabrication View Post
      I don't think you guys understand how easy it is to make "enough" power with these light weight cars. I have several friends with 10sec EVOs making 500+Hp they don't get on road courses to the best of my knowledge because that's just not big in my area. The GT-R is a race car. It runs with the big dogs (lamborghini goulardo porsche GT3, ferrari F430) right out of the box. As for hondas not handling, they are always at the top of the list in world touring. i have a good friend with a 2011 civic Si with a supercharger making 411Hp at the wheels and still averages 41mpg. All those used bmws and audis just need an ecu intake and exhaust and they can add an extra 100hp easy. I have a Saab 9-5 that made well over 350hp with hardly anything done to it but it now sits with a bad crank because well... that's what they are known for. Power to weight is the key in any form of racing. With light the weight you don't need the power. But many of these imports have the power with light weight.
      I guess they should have brought them out to R U Faster, if they dont its just talk.
      Nascar 69 Chevelle project, 1999 Hutch Pagan Nascar chassis, 69 Chevelle body,700hp, Penske's, slicks, roadrace track day https://www.pro-touring.com/showthre...le-Cup-project
      89 Iroc 406 Fitech 5 spd
      01 chevy 2500HD 4x4 8.1 Allison
      31 Scarab 2 x 454

    17. #57
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      Jan 2006
      Location
      Cornettsville, ky
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      874
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      the problem i was seeing i think it was miata or a wrx one the muscle car they had against it was only a 100-200 lbs heavier but double the power and the car barley beat it or lost. even if the mc handled worse. it would have to have to be the equivalent of a box truck for it to not walk all over the import. a z skyline supra even a wrx i can see being a exceptional car on a road course. alot of these cars like the civic for example are not but the muscle cars are spanked by them even. ive driven a civic, a celica, eclipse etcc.... and i was not impressed in the curves at all. my 3/4 ton truck did as good as some of these on some twisty roads. the z car is the only import (thats considered a tuner car) ive had a chance to drive that i was impressed by alot. if the show had a abody gm that was properly tuned with the proper control arms and so forth we would see a difference or one of the irs muscle cars rather than the leaf spring cars.

    18. #58
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      Dec 2006
      Location
      oshawa ontario
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      1,607
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      Quote Originally Posted by nekkidhillbilly View Post
      the problem i was seeing i think it was miata or a wrx one the muscle car they had against it was only a 100-200 lbs heavier but double the power and the car barley beat it or lost. even if the mc handled worse. it would have to have to be the equivalent of a box truck for it to not walk all over the import.
      The whole track is not even a mile in length. That is the perfect scenario for a lightweight low powered car to do well against a high powered heavy car. Run the event on my hometown Mosport Park (its actually the fastest track the ALMS series races on) with an uphill 3/4 mile long straight with a 4th gear turn at the end and see what those big power musclecars will do to those imports.




      Heres a pic of my Iroc at a track day at Mosport. That Corvette ahead of me was in my group. The car looked very stock to me. My car has a good running 305 tpi 5 spd in it, about the same power as a stock 5.0 Mustang. Out of the 2nd and third gear corners on the track that Vette would pull away pretty good but I could make it up late braking and sliding the car through the next corner.

      However, you come on to that 3/4 mi long straight in the bottom of second gear and he would pull away smartly at that point but not REAL bad (like what you saw the MCs do on the show) but by the time I hit 4th gear he was fading off into the distance VERY quickly and into 5th he was a little dot way the h ell up there!!. Given the chance to stretch its legs that car kicked my azz BAD! So the moral is you see the MCs spank the imports pretty good power wise on a little wee track like that, they would run away and hide on a real track. At least on the straights.

      I dont know much about Vettes...anyone know how much power that thing would have. Im pretty sure it was an automatic.
      Nascar 69 Chevelle project, 1999 Hutch Pagan Nascar chassis, 69 Chevelle body,700hp, Penske's, slicks, roadrace track day https://www.pro-touring.com/showthre...le-Cup-project
      89 Iroc 406 Fitech 5 spd
      01 chevy 2500HD 4x4 8.1 Allison
      31 Scarab 2 x 454

    19. #59
      Join Date
      Nov 2012
      Location
      louisville kentucky
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      55
      Country Flag: United States
      Abs and traction control helps

    20. #60
      Join Date
      Dec 2012
      Posts
      227
      However, you come on to that 3/4 mi long straight in the bottom of second gear and he would pull away smartly at that point but not REAL bad (like what you saw the MCs do on the show) but by the time I hit 4th gear he was fading off into the distance VERY quickly and into 5th he was a little dot way the h ell up there!!. Given the chance to stretch its legs that car kicked my azz BAD! So the moral is you see the MCs spank the imports pretty good power wise on a little wee track like that, they would run away and hide on a real track. At least on the straights.

      I dont know much about Vettes...anyone know how much power that thing would have. Im pretty sure it was an automatic.
      That's a C5 Corvette. Box-stock they had about 345 hp and pulled about 1G.... of course a lot of them have been warmed over. I used to spend a lot of time driving a '99 with about 390hp, and it pulled pretty hard.

      (Sorry for the hijack)
      Last edited by David Pozzi; 04-28-2013 at 08:39 AM.

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