Auto for Autocross/Track Days

[Simmo]

I have to make a call on transmission choice fairly soon and have a dilemma.

I've always had manuals for any type of performance driving, but I've now got a bung left foot and a t56 may not be a viable option (depending on how my recovery goes in the next 12 odd months). I need help from those who run/have run the following:-

I've checked out TCI's 6x trans and like what I read, all aside from the apparent lack of a positive downshift and the cost. A paddle shifted 4L80 may be the next best thing. Is anyone running one of these options in autocross/track type situations? How does it perform? Downshift? Shift response?



If someone has come across any options to retain the t56 but do away with the foot-operated clutch I'd also like to hear from you, I found one push button option at $8500, not really viable!

The Elky will be a bit of a do it all machine - street, autox, track and drag. The auto being an awesome option from the latter, it'll need to perform in the other diciplines as well though! I aim for about 450rwhp initailly, but may go FI later on so want future proofing for that too.

Any ideas?

[CA B4C]

I've autocrossed a third gen Camaro with a 700R4 for several years. I've found that a lighter torque converter will really make a difference. A lighter converter (higher stall speed) will also build more torque for better acceleration out of the tighter corners. Most of the autocrosses I've run were limited to about 60 mph. I put it second and left it alone. In an open tracking setting the only difference I found was down shifting later in the corner, just prior to throttle applicaiton, seemed to work best. Based on what you are trying to do, I think you'll be happy with an automatic.

For what is worth, I wouldn't get a paddle shifter or anything trick like that. Find a B&M rachet shifter you like and you'll be fine.

[rrunner68]

For what is worth, I wouldn't get a paddle shifter or anything trick like that. Find a B&M rachet shifter you like and you'll be fine.

I've melted a few of those shifter cables. Stuff gets hot if you are hot-lapping the car.

[SLO_Z28]

I've autocrossed a third gen Camaro with a 700R4 for several years. I've found that a lighter torque converter will really make a difference. A lighter converter (higher stall speed) will also build more torque for better acceleration out of the tighter corners. Most of the autocrosses I've run were limited to about 60 mph. I put it second and left it alone. In an open tracking setting the only difference I found was down shifting later in the corner, just prior to throttle applicaiton, seemed to work best. Based on what you are trying to do, I think you'll be happy with an automatic.

For what is worth, I wouldn't get a paddle shifter or anything trick like that. Find a B&M rachet shifter you like and you'll be fine.

^Dead on. Ive been very happy with an automatic for high performance use, and wouldn't even consider anything else for race use.

I've melted a few of those shifter cables. Stuff gets hot if you are hot-lapping the car.

Youre doing something wrong if thats happening!



On topic, the TCI 6x has an incredibly weak set up for all the high gears. The transmission shop that did my transmission has a 2005 mustang with a LSX454 and TCI6x, hes on his third one in as many events, keeps killing that split 6th gear because its so small.

[Bryce]

Think about turning and trying to shift a paddle shifter, unless you are 1/2 turn lock to lock steering then you might have some issues. I will be running a manual shift automatic for awhile until I decide I dont like it. Keeping it cool will be critical to how long the trans lasts. You might need to run a fan on your trans cooler due to the slower speeds on a autox.

[rrunner68]

Youre doing something wrong if thats happening!

Not really. The cables have a poor construction, and when they get hot enough with constant shifting, the outer bit gets soft, allowing the inner bands to expand and shift, then the inner cable has enough wiggle room to escape. Pretty common.
Mechanical linkage is preferred.

[68Formula]

Think about turning and trying to shift a paddle shifter, unless you are 1/2 turn lock to lock steering then you might have some issues. I will be running a manual shift automatic for awhile until I decide I dont like it. Keeping it cool will be critical to how long the trans lasts. You might need to run a fan on your trans cooler due to the slower speeds on a autox.

Drove a Ferrari and a Lambo with paddle shifters on a 1.3 mile road course. It was unbelievable. Of course, these are twin clutch manuals not automatics with a torque converter. But talk about fun! The paddle shifters move with the wheel, plus you usually doing down/up shifting right before or just as you're exiting a corner, so the wheel is not turned very far. Definitely a must upgrade if you're already electronically shifting an auto.

[laguna4efi]

Obviously we're a little biased but we're working very hard on making automatics much more acceptable for autocrossing and track days. Our paddle shifter does move with the wheel to make it easier to shift under hard cornering. I'll also tease you a little with two new products we're working on that make shifting autos quicker/easier and also providing engine braking in quite a few applications. Can't say anymore until we get to Hot Rod and Restoration show in March. Stay tuned....

[Poorhousenext]

Obviously we're a little biased but we're working very hard on making automatics much more acceptable for autocrossing and track days. Our paddle shifter does move with the wheel to make it easier to shift under hard cornering. I'll also tease you a little with two new products we're working on that make shifting autos quicker/easier and also providing engine braking in quite a few applications. Can't say anymore until we get to Hot Rod and Restoration show in March. Stay tuned....

I'll drop by your booth and check out the new products.

I accepted their invitation to bring my 64 up to Show.

[Simmo]

Obviously we're a little biased but we're working very hard on making automatics much more acceptable for autocrossing and track days. Our paddle shifter does move with the wheel to make it easier to shift under hard cornering. I'll also tease you a little with two new products we're working on that make shifting autos quicker/easier and also providing engine braking in quite a few applications. Can't say anymore until we get to Hot Rod and Restoration show in March. Stay tuned....

Thanks for the input guys,

I'm at loss as I do like the efficiency/ability to keep the motor in the range of the 6 speed. I'll have to explore other non-foot operated options here too...

Jay - is there anything up and coming in the 6 speed auto department? New trans? The 6x has just got too many stories of shi*ting itself which is no good if you are on the other side of the globe. As far as 6l80/90 goes is there still no sucessful ways to tune/build these to handle power? Have you got a youtube link or similar of your shifter in action? I have seen a couple from varying manufacturers but they dont appear to be very responsive at all, I'm guessing that will be down to the amatuer install. I just want to see how it performs when set up properly by you guys. If you could PM even a hint of whats coming up, I'll be painting the underside in the very near future so need to know if it will be cut up!

I guess a big + for the 4l80 is no floor mods but the parasitic loss sucks. Can this effect be lessened with a decent converter and new ratios? I would run a 65 but for future proofing for FI I think the 80 will be the way to go. I really want a six speed though...4l80 with GV OD!? I see the stuff from TCI and Hughes, who else has a rebuild or complete trans kit with paddle shifter that I should check out?

[laguna4efi]

Awesome, can't wait to see your ride Poorhousenext.

[laguna4efi]

Ok, there is some new 6 speed 4L80E based stuff coming but I really can't divulge anymore on it right now in fairness to who we're working with. No, I don't believe we're going to see a good 6L80/90 solution. It just wasn't designed to fit our demands quite honestly. I don't have a video of our shifter in action today, but that is on the list of things to do for 2012. I'm hoping we can get that done first quarter along with video of a Simple Shift install and typical calibration too. I can tell you response time will not be an issue for you. Slow response times are based on the parameters of the calibration and speed of the transmission solenoids, not the response time of the shift mechanism. I'm not afraid of the 4L65E or 4L70E myself. I have a 4L70E in my camaro and a paddle shifter is going in it as soon as I get it back from the chassis shop this week. Once I get that in if the weather holds out I'll try to shoot some (very amateur) video of it for you and send it along.

[Chadly B]

I've autocrossed a third gen Camaro with a 700R4 for several years. I've found that a lighter torque converter will really make a difference. A lighter converter (higher stall speed) will also build more torque for better acceleration out of the tighter corners. Most of the autocrosses I've run were limited to about 60 mph. I put it second and left it alone. In an open tracking setting the only difference I found was down shifting later in the corner, just prior to throttle applicaiton, seemed to work best. Based on what you are trying to do, I think you'll be happy with an automatic.

For what is worth, I wouldn't get a paddle shifter or anything trick like that. Find a B&M rachet shifter you like and you'll be fine.

So, approximately what size stall speed? I'm having a manual valve body TH350 built and would love to be able to autocross a V8 s10 with this tranny.....I was thinking in the 2500-3000 rpm range......

[CA B4C]

The converter I have stalls around 2200 rpm. I'm running a TPI with a soft cam, therefore not a very aggressive stall speed. The reduced weight of the smaller converter was the point I was trying to make. Like going from a steel flywheel to an aluminum flywheel. I think your estimate is in the right range. Your tranny builder can probably give you some good suggestions based on your engine combo, vehicle weight, and rear axle ratio. Best of luck with your project.

[Chadly B]

Thanks, I understand all of that a little more now.....

[chr2002ca]

Yah, the wait of the converter has been an issue for me also. I'm running a 200 4R with a lockup converter(2600 stall speed) and that mutha weighs 55lbs with fluid in it. Unbelievably heavy. I know the non-lockup converters are about 20lbs lighter, but the lock-up is great for highway driving and helps a lot with heat control. I'm going to be upgrading my engine soon and will need a new and stronger tranny to go along with it. If I stick with a 200 4R(love the size and gear ratios), I'll definitely be trying to figure out a lighter solution for the converter. Maybe a slightly lower stall speed also.

[The Stickman]

I ran my 200 4R last year and was surprised how well it performed as all I had run in the past was a manual. But I was told smaller converters and higher stall speeds than stock created more heat and for track events would be better left stock for that reason. So what's the real deal. Is it better for power and acceleration but creates more heat?

[Chadly B]

From what I've been told, if the convertor creates more heat, compensate with a bigger, better trans cooling system......now, that was just a discussion about running a higher stall convertor on the street, but I'd think the same would apply here.....

[Steve Chryssos]

When autocrossing, we pull up to the staging line with the mechanical floor shifter in second and launch in 1st. After leaving the line, we tap up into second gear using our paddle shifter, then hold second gear for the rest of the course. Three pedals or two, there is very little shifting involved in autocross, so an automatic works just as well as a manual plus you have the added benefit of torque multiplication with the converter.

We won a Year One autocross cup with the same car that ran 9.98 ET. Automatics are your best all around solution if drag racing is part of your game plan.
/Steevo

[Coursey]

So what updates have happened over the last 10 years with using autos on track?