Boxing a frame, questions?

[Syclone892]

So I am thinking strongly of trying to box the frame on my syclone

I feel like I am capable of doing it but want to get some ideas from people that have done it. The rear of the frames on these trucks are not boxed but from the back of the cab forward they are. I feel this will help the structure of the truck greatly, one thing I have noticed is when I lift the truck on the rack that the distance between the top of the bed and the back of the cab grows which means the frame is very weak right there.

My plan is to take the bed off and get a bunch of 4x4 blocks that I can stack up under the tires so I can get it 1-2 feet off the ground that way the frame is not twisted or anything. I would remove the brake lines and anything else that would be in the way. I can get some metal and make them fit and weld them in then. Things I wonder are, what thickness metal should I get, should I put the plate flat with the frame and weld it or slightly inside the frame to weld it? Should I leave a little gap so I can get more weld in it then also?

The last part I would like to ask is how good of a welder do you need to be to do something like this? I feel like I am a decent welder but I wouldn't say I'm the best I am basically self taught so I don't really know the exact "correct" way to weld. I would most likely be using my dads new autoset miller welder (can't remember model #) I would be using it with 110v as the place the truck is currently at doesn't have 220 hookups.

Thanks in advance for all the help you guys can give me I just hope someday I can do some awesome work like a lot of you guys on here are capable of

[ccm399]

Hey David,

While I have never boxed a frame on a Syclone personally I have a fair amount of chassis fab time under my belt. If it were me I would get as much of the weight off the frame as possible before I began, especially if just lifting the trunk on a lift tweaks the chassis that much. From there I would get material at least as thick as the current frame but if it were me I would use 1/8 to probably 3/16 max. As for the size I would cut the pieces the same size as the inside dimension of the current rails. I would not weld them inside at all though, I would line them up and tack them in place so there is a corner to fill some thing like:
W _____________
W _____________ - Original Frame Material
| |
| |
| |
^ Boxing Material

Weld where the W's are.

You will need to check your welders specs (if it is a multi voltage machine make sure you look at the 110 ratings) but I would think you should be ok. Go slow and MOST importantly make sure the metal is CLEAN!!! Use a wire wheel and a sanding wheel in a grinder to the the rust/paint of the rails. Also, do not run a long continuous bead of weld, you will distort the material and start and then your chassis will not be as square as you would like! Move around weld a couple inches at a time max. If you have all your pieces cut before welding you will have plenty of places to jump around to without creating too much heat build up. If you need to you can always take a break part way through to allow the material to cool. Actually depending on the welder model you might HAVE to take a break because of it's duty cycle.... but that's another topic all togehter. Speaking of square I would do some measuring before welding to make sure I am not boxing a twist or bend INTO the frame.

Hope this helps,

Chris

[Syclone892]

Hi Chris

Thanks for the response you have given me some ideas I needed and some new questions to ask

When you say take as much weight off the frame are you talking just a weight reduction in general? If thats the case then its about as far as I would get for a street vehicle. I think the main reason for the flex compared to a car is that the cab and box are not connected which creates a stress point on the frame compared to a car where its all one piece ya know.

I have heard the frame is roughly 1/4 thick, if that is the case would you still recommend 3/16 max size for the plate? I don't have easy access to the truck currently to measure the thickness.

I do understand how to fit the plate and were to weld it, I see where that would be better than slightly inside the frame.
As for the welder I believe its a miller autoset 211 not sure if you know much about it or could give some advice if that wouldn't be good enough using 110v.

I hear ya on cleaning for a good weld also, I do a bunch of welding at work but nothing structural mainly just brackets for strobe lights etc. I plan on making all the pieces then welding it all together. Since the truck is at my brothers house an hr away it will be easy to only weld so much and then let it cool and come back to it the next week.
How would you recommend I check the frame for straightness? I know there are certain alignment holes in frames for frame machines but I'm just wondering how close I could measure those to see if its square. That it one reason I would have the tires resting on blocks so it simulates the normal load on the frame also but the bed will be removed to gain proper access to weld the frame.

If you don't think that welder would be enough with the 110v I may have to just tack everything up like that then trailer the truck to work were I could use our big welder with 220v I believe that one is a panasonic gunslinger 260.
Oh also what size wire would you recommend for this? I believe we have the .035 size but am not 100% sure.

I have tackled quite a few projects thats the main reason I am contemplating tackling this one plus the added benefit of being the one to do the work to my own vehicle always feels good!

Thanks for the help I appreciate it greatly

[Syclone892]

I had another question I just thought of, whats your thoughts on adding some sort of x-brace and do you think it would need to be the same height as the frame or would smaller with some brackets on the ends to tie it to the frame be good? I most likely would have to redo the exhaust for something like that but was just curious. I do currently have a nice crossmember/ driveshaft loop that replaced on old crossmember that was very flimsy so maybe I would hold off on an x-brace.

[-CRUISER-]

I'd like to chime in here ! Everything CCM399 has said is true ! As for the 1/4" stock frame rail's I believe its closer to the 1/8" mark. I would also use 1/8" metal for the boxed sections for 2 reason... 1) it would be lighter and if welded like the pic above would be more than strong enough. 2) It would work better with the welder you have.

Jumping around is very good advice, I would usually get all nerd and chalk out were I'm gonna tack every 4 - 6 inches. 4" would be better for you and your 110 welder. Makes it easier to no where to start and stop. I think there is nothing wrong with the 110 welder for the task you have. I would lean more towards an .030 wire than an .035. Once again it will work better for your welder.

If you can sneak a X-brace in there I would do it ! The more bracing the better ! If you can try to run a decent size gusset where your brace meets the frame. This will help keep your frame rail from moving separately under load.

Hope this helps

[ccm399]

Hey David,

Let me clarify the weight deal. It sounds like you will be doing this with completely taking the truck apart, right? Basically what I was trying to get at was everything that is mounted to the frame can and probably is causing it to flex. So if you could get he weight of the engine and driveline out of the truck the the frame should be closer to straight.

The weight might not be a huge deal but I would at the very minimum make 100% sure whatever you are using to elevate the truck is level at all four locations. A transit would be PERFECT for this. Well, technically it does not have to be a true transit just a level will do. Something like this job site level CLICK ME If your heights are off when you start then you will for sure be bracing a twist into the frame. I would even go one step further and find four locations on the frame I could check to make double sure I was not welding on a twisted frame.

As for the frame thickness I am with Cruiser, I would guess 1/8 max. If it is 1/4 I would probably still use 3/16 you will get most the strength and have less weight to haul around and be easier on your welder. +1 on the .030 wire, that's what I run in my Miller 175 (its about 8 years old) but it is a 220 machine only. The 211 auto set is a great machine CLICK ME to find the specs. Looks like on 120v it is good for 90 amps @ 20% duty (2 minutes on 8 minutes off). You should be OK but you will need to let her rest as you will be running it pretty much full out on 120 volts. I know when I was building my English Wheel my 175 would need a rest from time to time welding the 1/4 tubing for the frame. Worked out OK though since I was trying to prevent heat buildup anyway. Also, DO NOT use an extension cord!!!!! That will KILL the output of the machine not to mention blow the breakers in your house quicker.

As for the X Brace. Do it! As for size I would need to look at the space you have to work with and then make a choice. In my mind 2x2 1/4 wall would help but not as much as I would like. The span will be more of an issue that the gusseting. However, it will need gussets for sure. Again, guessing I would like to see something like 2x3 1/8 wall or something like that. just a guess but a start. As Cruiser said anything to try to keep the frame rails from moving separately as they are loaded is a good thing. The triangle is your friend with this need!

[ccm399]

Oh man just as I clicked submit I though of a WAYYY cheaper way to check the level of the pads and/or frame....

A good old fashioned water level would do the trick! If you have never seen one of these basically you would need to go to Home Depot or Lowes and get about 20' of 1/4 clear PVC tubing LIKE THIS then fill it with water and plug the ends with a cork or glue or something. MAKE SURE THE ENDS DON'T LEAK!!!! Now hold the two ends up in the air with the remaining tubing laying on the ground. double check you do not have any air bubbles trapped anywhere then mark the water line with a sharp Sharpie. Boom instant water level. Now all you need to do is have someone hold one end with the line flush with the surface the tire will be sitting on and then adjust your end up or down until the water line meets the line you drew on the tube. Make sure your helpers end lines up to (it will if there was no leak) and that is the correct height for the other pad. Now repeat this process two more times.

It looks really weird to have all that tubing laying on the floor but trust me it works. I would prefer the job site level but for about $3 you can't beat it!

Chris

[Syclone892]

Thanks guys for the great advice

For the weight basically I was hoping to only remove the bed of the truck because the cab, engine etc would be a pain where the truck is at currently.
Basically my biggest problem right now is I don't have an awesome spot to work on the truck, I can do it at my brothers house in his garage but I have limited tools, I can do it at work but I have to push it in and out of the garage which is also on an uphill (not fun!)

So if I was able to remove the bed then put the truck up on some 4x4 blocks under the tires to simulate the normal load on the frame I was kind of hoping that would be good enough. I don't want to do anything part way though and if the that way wouldn't work and I needed to remove everything then that is what would have to be done!

Where is a good spot to buy the plates to weld in? I was looking at our local steel place and it seems like it may get pretty expensive just for the steel, should I try a chassis shop or maybe summit sells some universal plates?

I will defiantly try and do an x brace if possible, would it be best to weld it into place then box around it so its attached to the original frame and the boxed section or am I getting a little carried away

Cruiser you are like me as I do the same thing and mark where I am going to weld but for me I think its a little more ocd playing the role so it all looks uniform

I have seen those job site levels for a decent price now a days so it may be a useful tool to pick up. I was using my work welder today and that is .035 wire but I have a feeling my dads miller is probably smaller wire so I will check into what size he has. He hasnt even used this one yet so hopefully I can take it for its maiden voyage

The website in my sig has pics of the truck and some are from underneath so maybe you guys could get a little better idea of what I will be dealing with.
Caution though, I will admit there is a lot of stuff on the truck I am not proud of and is not in the finished form so don't judge me on the zip tie racing

This whole thing is stemming from me needing to redo the fuel system (getting rid of braided line) and if I box the frame it will be easier to mount the fuel pump and run the stainless hardlines. Typical project never ends kind of deal going on.

I have been reading up some on how to weld better and I did practice it at work on the new strobe bracket I made and I was impressed did probably the best looking welds I have ever done before, if only I could have cut them apart to see how solid they were!

Thanks you guys have given me a lot of things to think about and make sure I have in place before tackling this project in the next couple months (hey its cold around here )

[ccm399]

Go to your local steel supply house and ask to see their drops. You pay scrape prices (at least around here you do) and they normally have lots of great material you can use. You have to take what they have meaning if the sheet is 30x40 and you only need 30x20 you get to have a second piece.

As for the X brace I would tie it into the original frame and box around it. That would be best for sure. Probably not 100% needed but as long as you are there why not?

I think you will be OK with not completely disassembling the truck just be sure to check and re-check that everything it level and square.

Have fun...

[Jim B]

I saw an episode of Trucks TV where they performed almost exactly what you are talking about in some pretty good detail on a Ford Ranger/Mazda B2500. Most of the comments above agree with the show. You can either record it on your DVR the next time it comes up or buy a DVD. Here is a link: http://www.powerblocktv.com/site3/in...16&ep_sea=1001
- Jim

[jv982]

Here is the episode on spike: http://www.spike.com/full-episodes/0...eason-2-ep-218