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  1. #1
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    NASA-SE Open Vintage Class

    If possible I'd like the admin to consider this for a sticky in the race section.


    Attached is our Mission Statement and Rules for a new Vintage class in NASA-SE.
    We are spreading the word for this new class and putting out a call to builders and owners of older race cars that do not want to adhere to period correct rules but need a class in which to compete against like year cars.
    The PT crowd is just such a group.



    Mission Statement

    NASA-SE is opening a new race class beginning in 2010, this class is called Open Vintage and is an open class.

    It is meant to give racers of older cars a class in which to compete against like year and similar technology based cars.
    Vehicles allowed are 1975 and older, foreign or domestic production based cars.

    It is the intent of this class to promote the spirit of competition for Vintage car racers as was the case when these cars were the technology leaders of their time.

    It is also the intent of the rules to allow modifications to the cars so owners and drivers are not confined by strict period correct build rules. This is to allow personalization as well as to control cost by allowing more common and easier to acquire parts.

    The class is broken down into five power to weight ratio classes, V1- V5. The upper and lower are for extremes as most cars should fall into the V2, V3, and V4 classes.
    This race class will compete in the Thunder race group.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------



    2010 NASA-SE Open Vintage Class Rules


    1. General Rules and Safety
    All cars, drivers, and entrants will be subject to the NASA Club Codes and Regulations.
    Specifically the Technical Requirements, Required Safety Equipment, Vehicle Safety
    Inspection, Vehicle Legality Inspection, and General Competition Vehicle Rules sections
    (NASA CCR Sections 12-18). These sections cover rules for safety equipment,
    including full roll cages, window nets, belts, extinguishers, as well as appearance and
    other items. All cars must have a NASA vehicle log book and all drivers must have a
    current NASA competition license.


    2. Car Eligibility
    Any 1975 or older production vehicle of any manufacture, foreign or domestic meeting NASA CCR standards for competition is eligible for Vintage Class competition.
    Competitors wishing an exemption to the above list can contact the NASA-SE regional
    Director or Vintage Class official.
    Upon issuance of exemption, a signed allowance must be attached to the log book.


    3. Classification
    There are 5 classes for Vintage: V-1, V-2, V-3, V-4 and V5
    All cars will be classed on a power to weight ratio. A vehicle's classification and minimum
    allowable weight (as the car would exit the track with the driver) will be determined by
    dividing the vehicles weight by the vehicle's power.

    "Power," as used here, will be determined from a minimum of three consecutive chassis dyno pulls, and shall be defined as:
    a) The horsepower value at the drive wheels from the single run with the highest horsepower reading (for cars with higher horsepower than ft/lbs torque); or
    b) The average of horsepower and torque from the single run with the highest average of those values (for cars with higher torque than horsepower):

    The following table shall be used to determine each car’s class based on the calculations using the above methods.

    V-5 __ 6.49 – Lower
    V-4 __ 6.50 – 8.49
    V-3 __ 8.50 – 10.49
    V-2 __10.50 – 12.49
    V-1 __12.50 - Higher


    4. Car Modifications
    Any modification to the car is allowed subject to the following restrictions.
    For all Vintage class cars, the engine and the chassis must be of the same marquee. (e.g. a Porsche may use any Porsche engine, GM in any GM, Ford in any Ford,) it does not need to be year correct. (e.g. modern LS engine in a 1968 GM is acceptable) For the purposes of these rules, the engine is defined as the block, aftermarket heads are allowed. Aluminum blocks are allowed. Aftermarket blocks must be based off OEM designs. (e.g. factory bore spacing)
    Swapping engines between different chassis made by the samemanufacturer is allowed, but swapping engines of a marquee different than the chassismanufacturer is specifically not allowed. (e.g. A Nissan engine in a Datsun is acceptable, a GM engine in a Datsun is not)

    Tube frame cars will be bumped into the next higher class. “Tube frame” is defined as any car that does not retain the manufacturer’s stock unit body or chassis, or is a purpose built or factory built tube framed car.
    Modification of suspension components and drive train mounting points alone does not constitute a tube frame. (e.g. tubular front A-arms does not constitute a tube frame)

    Any DOT or non DOT Tire and Rim package is acceptable. Tires must not extend beyond the body side line. Body side flares are allowed.

    Any Brake Package is allowed, OEM or Aftermarket.

    Fiberglass replacement body panels are allowed. (e.g. Hoods, trunk lids, bumpers, fenders and doors.)

    5. Engine Power Testing/Protest Procedure
    Competitors must produce a dynamometer certification from the last 12 months and
    dynamometer certification form upon demand and should keep copies of both with their
    vehicle logbook. Yearly re-certification is required.
    Any competitor without a dynamometer certification will be placed into V-5 until they can produce a certification. A competitor must re-certify their car if any changes have been made since the last certification run. Competitors may use any brand of dyno for certification.
    To allow a small safety margin for dyno variance, a forgiveness of 4WHP will be given
    to cars with WHP greater than WTQ and a -4 factor will be applied to the formula for
    cars using the averaging method for WTQ greater than WHP. However, if a car does not
    meet the minimum weight listed on the certification sheet, the forgiveness cannot be used
    to arrive at a compliant number.

    Protest procedures will be handled per the NASA CCR with the exception that a protest
    requiring a dyno run must be accompanied by a bond from the protestor in the amount of
    the cost of a dyno run. The losing party of the protest will be required to pay for the run,
    so if the protest is upheld the protestor shall have their funds returned and the protestee
    will be required to pay for the run.


    6. Car Markings
    6.1. Vintage Car Classification Identification
    All cars shall display the Vintage logo on both sides of the car and on the rear. The logo must be in a contrasting color than the vehicle’s color scheme and should be a minimum of 3” high.
    The logo can be incorporated with other markings (e.g. number plate) so long as the class logo remains easily identifiable.


    6.2. Car Numbers
    All cars shall display their car number in accordance with the CCR.

    7. Scoring
    Scoring shall be done per the NASA CCR. The SE Regional Director may elect to allow
    competitors to drop a certain percentage of events and will alert competitors to the drop
    amount prior to the beginning of the season.

    8. Punitive action
    Should a Vintage class car be found non-rules compliant a sliding scale from minor to major will be used by the Series and Race director to assess penalties. A major infraction can result in suspension from Vintage class competition. (e.g. incorrect dyno certification)

    All race points fall under the NASA-SE division as this is not a Nationally Sanctioned Class.



  2. #2
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    ho,

    Can you describe how a competition with one of these cars would work?

    Got any video or pictures from similar classes from last year?

    thanks,

    jp
    John Parsons



    II Much Fabrication's Blog -- New products, Fabrication sequences, etc.

    II Much Fabrication's Current Build -- LS9-powered 69 Camaro

  3. #3
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    Also, before we'd consider making it a sticky, you'll need to change your signature to include your name. See this thread for more information.
    John Parsons



    II Much Fabrication's Blog -- New products, Fabrication sequences, etc.

    II Much Fabrication's Current Build -- LS9-powered 69 Camaro

  4. #4
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    Not sure what your question is about running these cars.

    This is a competition race class. Cars must be built to NASA CCR rules for class racing. CCR Comp requirements start at page 47 http://www.nasaproracing.com/rules/ccr.pdf

    We run this class in the Thunder race group which has anywhere from 40-60 cars depending on the track and event. 40 minute races. Quite a few classes within the race group, from American Iron to GTS.

    The reason for posting this on the PT site is the types of car builds and technology used in PT is not legal for most vintage class racing yet many people have expressed interest in racing the older cars using modern technology. However, most sanctioning bodies for older race cars require period correct builds. This Open Vintage class allows you to use the modern technology.

  5. #5
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    the non removable double bars on the drivers side are going to be a pain in the butt for guys that want to have street driven cars as well. I cant imagine trying to climb in and out every time.

    single bar removeable is fine- but double non removeable is a pain.
    HPDE is the greatest thing since sliced bread.
    So much to learn......so much $$ to do so lol


  6. #6
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    Very Nice, I have been thinking of away to make this happen and it looks like your headed full steam in the right direction. If there is anything I could do to help please let me know. I ran NASA Time Trials for 3 years and know a few people To talk to for Nor Cal NASA. I think you might have to go through Greg Greenbaum, he's in the south and I believe the lead director for time trials north and south. Anyhow, anything I could do to help, let me know. Keep in mind NCRC might be another option although I did not see Infineon on their schedule this year, they due go to Laguna, Buttonwillow, and Thunderhill.

    Gaetano Cosentino
    Dont Drive Faster Than Your Angels Can Fly

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by wicked68 View Post
    the non removable double bars on the drivers side are going to be a pain in the butt for guys that want to have street driven cars as well. I cant imagine trying to climb in and out every time.

    single bar removeable is fine- but double non removeable is a pain.
    If you also want to street drive your car I'd suggest running it in NASA DE or Time Trialing and not the race group.

    I honestly don't think I've seen a single street legal car in the race groups. I'm sure there might be some that could be with a little work, but most of the race group cars are race only.

    This car is an example of a guy that had an awesome street car, but couldn't exploit it's potential on the street, yet is was not legal for vintage racing due to his modern performance parts modifications.
    So he ran it in DE last year and is now moving into full competition with it this year in this new class with some safety modifications.


  8. #8
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    OK, so we're talking about 40-60 cars on the track at the same time, passing just like you see on TV. I think I understand what you're talking about, but a video or some photos of what you're talking about would be helpful.

    I think most members who take their car to the track think in terms of HPDEs... not racing. I'm just trying to clarify all that (not for me... for the readers of the stickied thread).

    thanks!

    jp
    John Parsons



    II Much Fabrication's Blog -- New products, Fabrication sequences, etc.

    II Much Fabrication's Current Build -- LS9-powered 69 Camaro

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by parsonsj View Post
    OK, so we're talking about 40-60 cars on the track at the same time, passing just like you see on TV. I think I understand what you're talking about, but a video or some photos of what you're talking about would be helpful.

    I think most members who take their car to the track think in terms of HPDEs... not racing. I'm just trying to clarify all that (not for me... for the readers of the stickied thread).

    thanks!

    jp
    I was hoping it was going to be more of a Time Trial thing. I dont feel like trading paint for position!!

    Gaetano Cosentino
    Dont Drive Faster Than Your Angels Can Fly

  10. #10
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    Another thing that I have just noticed is that you are on the east coast. Will you be talking to anybody on the west coast. Also, I dont believe NASA has an SE or DE class on the west coast. Either way, if your not going to do anything for the west coast, can you help me with logistics such as a proposal I can use to give to the NASA director out here?

    Gaetano Cosentino
    Dont Drive Faster Than Your Angels Can Fly

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by ho428 View Post
    If you also want to street drive your car I'd suggest running it in NASA DE or Time Trialing and not the race group.

    I honestly don't think I've seen a single street legal car in the race groups. I'm sure there might be some that could be with a little work, but most of the race group cars are race only.

    This car is an example of a guy that had an awesome street car, but couldn't exploit it's potential on the street, yet is was not legal for vintage racing due to his modern performance parts modifications.
    So he ran it in DE last year and is now moving into full competition with it this year in this new class with some safety modifications.


    got it. do you need a race license to do time trialing and de events? I assume not - can you also do those events without a double door bar and window net? I have everything else.
    HPDE is the greatest thing since sliced bread.
    So much to learn......so much $$ to do so lol


  12. #12
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    DE and TT require only a Helmet, good seat belts and your car be in good mechanical condition.
    You must start out in DE-1 though. This will get you classroom sessions and an in car instructor to ride along with you to get you started.
    After running DE-1 they will sign you off for DE-2 which is solo. DE 1-2 is passing only on the straights with a point by from the car you are passing, or you point by the faster car behind you.

    You can then move into DE-3 which is passing anywhere with a point by. After that you can get signed into TT if you want which is passing anywhere, point by advised. Some people just stay in DE though.
    DE's are the safest sessions you can run, TT gets a bit more aggressive due to the high speed high performance cars out there trying for that perfect fast lap. You get awards in TT, not in DE.

    Car to car contact is extremely rare in DE and TT. In fact it's pretty rare in the race groups.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by ho428 View Post
    DE and TT require only a Helmet, good seat belts and your car be in good mechanical condition.
    You must start out in DE-1 though. This will get you classroom sessions and an in car instructor to ride along with you to get you started.
    After running DE-1 they will sign you off for DE-2 which is solo. DE 1-2 is passing only on the straights with a point by from the car you are passing, or you point by the faster car behind you.

    You can then move into DE-3 which is passing anywhere with a point by. After that you can get signed into TT if you want which is passing anywhere, point by advised. Some people just stay in DE though.
    DE's are the safest sessions you can run, TT gets a bit more aggressive due to the high speed high performance cars out there trying for that perfect fast lap. You get awards in TT, not in DE.

    Car to car contact is extremely rare in DE and TT. In fact it's pretty rare in the race groups.
    if you hvae already been through skip barber 3 day racing course can you skip de1 ? seems like a waste of time to go back.
    HPDE is the greatest thing since sliced bread.
    So much to learn......so much $$ to do so lol


  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by wicked68 View Post
    if you hvae already been through skip barber 3 day racing course can you skip de1 ? seems like a waste of time to go back.

    DE 1 and 2 are generally run at the same time and get just as much track time as DE 3 and 4 (you get a talking to and then go on track. They don't have you perform downshifting drills etc). It is worth it to have the instructor with you just for the sake of learning the track more quickly. Before they let you run DE3, you'll need to have proved to someone with some authority that you can be trusted with the relaxed passing rules. Just sign up for HPDE 1 and see how it goes.
    Brett H.

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    1991 Mazda Miata
    2005 Ford Mustang GT

    1987 Ford Mustang GT - Sold 06-29-2014
    1988 Oldsmobile Cutlass Ciera - RIP 9-17-2011
    1992 Chevrolet Corvette - Sold 10-12-2017

  15. #15
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    WOW.. I need to get full steam on my Satelite Project. This is EXACTLY what I want to do. I guess I better order a rulebook.
    Dan W
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    1962 Dodge Dart 440

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by wicked68 View Post
    if you hvae already been through skip barber 3 day racing course can you skip de1 ? seems like a waste of time to go back.
    There was one guy I heard about that used to have a comp license in some other sanction but let it lapse a few years so he signed up for NASA DE-1. By the 3rd track session they'd already signed him through DE-3 and into TT for the rest of the weekend.

    If you don't have a valid comp license but did the Barber gig I'm pretty sure they'll move you up very quickly.

  17. #17
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    I've stuck the thread for a while. I think NASA has a lot to offer us PT guys.

    Thanks Gordon.

    jp
    John Parsons



    II Much Fabrication's Blog -- New products, Fabrication sequences, etc.

    II Much Fabrication's Current Build -- LS9-powered 69 Camaro

  18. #18
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    I've been through 5 days of Ron Fellows at Spring Mountain, so I hope I move quickly too. But I'll take my medicine... I want some independent verification of my "skillz".

    jp
    John Parsons



    II Much Fabrication's Blog -- New products, Fabrication sequences, etc.

    II Much Fabrication's Current Build -- LS9-powered 69 Camaro

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by rrunner68 View Post
    WOW.. I need to get full steam on my Satelite Project. This is EXACTLY what I want to do. I guess I better order a rulebook.
    Same here...I need to get the Camaro project rolling...this mowing grass stuff is going to have to wait! lol j/k
    Wayne Smith
    '70 Camaro - 406 - Street/Strip being converted to Pro-Touring (best 1/4 run - 11.05 @ 121, 1.50 60' - NA)
    '47 Chevy truck - 250 L6 / 5 spd - Resto Rod/Work Truck in the works

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by ho428 View Post
    There was one guy I heard about that used to have a comp license in some other sanction but let it lapse a few years so he signed up for NASA DE-1. By the 3rd track session they'd already signed him through DE-3 and into TT for the rest of the weekend.

    If you don't have a valid comp license but did the Barber gig I'm pretty sure they'll move you up very quickly.
    That's a very good point as well. During my last track day, a guy in my run group was moved from DE2 to DE3 midday. All he had to do was request it and then during his next session, an instructor drove a chase car to watch how he handled things.

    I still recommend signing up for DE1 and then if you need to move up, just ask. The instruction is still very valuable.
    Brett H.

    1979 Pontiac Firebird Trans Am
    1991 Mazda Miata
    2005 Ford Mustang GT

    1987 Ford Mustang GT - Sold 06-29-2014
    1988 Oldsmobile Cutlass Ciera - RIP 9-17-2011
    1992 Chevrolet Corvette - Sold 10-12-2017

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