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    1. #1
      Join Date
      Sep 2002
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      So. Cal
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      RSX Piston Meltdown

      From fuel injection Section - Rick's Tank's at the Race Track

      Quote Originally Posted by PhillipM View Post
      What compression ratio were you running at? 103 degrees and 91 octane are all we have in Arizona!
      302cu, 9.5cr, 10-12 psi Twin Turbo intercooled, 750hp @ 7500rpm. (2.5hp/cu)

      My EGT's would hit 1400-1500 as I kept my foot into it.




      The only way to lower my EGT's was by increasing timing. I would guess I'm transferring the heat into the cyl.(double edge sword, melt the turbo or melt the pistons)

      I will bring CR down to around 8.5. I started at 7.5 (dished piston) and that was way too low. (lazy) 9.5 drove and performed great, but I think is too high for sustained road racing. We'll shoot for the middle.

      Ron DeRaad
      68 Camaro RSx
      Darton Sleeved LS9 - 434ci (4.155x4.00)
      AFR LSX245 Heads (12:1cr)
      660hp/588tq


    2. #2
      Join Date
      Apr 2006
      Location
      Huntington Beach, CA
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      2,415
      Country Flag: United States
      Ouch. Are you able to throw a new set of pistons it it or are you going to disassemble and refresh the whole thing?
      Please Subscribe to the AutoXandTrack YouTube Channel

      Autocross and track blog about running autocross and track events with pro touring cars

    3. #3
      Join Date
      Sep 2002
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      So. Cal
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      Quote Originally Posted by Chad-1stGen View Post
      Ouch. Are you able to throw a new set of pistons it it or are you going to disassemble and refresh the whole thing?
      I will be disassembling and check everything with a fine tooth comb.

      After pulling off the drivers side head, it got into #8 cyl as well.

      Block looks ok, but my biggest concern at this moment is the heads. Started melting and some of the piston stuck to them. I'm hoping I can mill off .005-.010" and clean-up.
      Ron DeRaad
      68 Camaro RSx
      Darton Sleeved LS9 - 434ci (4.155x4.00)
      AFR LSX245 Heads (12:1cr)
      660hp/588tq

    4. #4
      Join Date
      Jun 2001
      Location
      Newbury Park, CA
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      5,821
      Country Flag: United States
      What fuel to you run Ron?
      VaporWorx. We Give You Gas http://www.vaporworx.com

    5. #5
      Join Date
      Sep 2006
      Location
      Henderson,NV
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      Ouch, looks like we are both in the same boat. Mine is torn down to the bare block as of yesterday. I like this part of it probably the best.
      Todd

    6. #6
      Join Date
      Feb 2002
      Location
      Springfield, MO
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      that blows. Did it damage the cyl's?
      1500 is hot, but it should be able to take it for short bursts shouldn't it? I know mine has taken that a bunch and even 1400 for long drives.....read LONG! Like one leg of the power tour long! (Had a bad timing issue)
      Looks more like the rings butt ended and popped the top, kinda like detonation.
      Jimmy

      69 Camaro Twin Turbo'd
      58 Nomad 348 Baby Rat

      http://www.fquick.com/shmoov69


    7. #7
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      Sep 2002
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      So. Cal
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      Quote Originally Posted by CarlC View Post
      What fuel to you run Ron?

      I run Mobil 91 oct.
      Ron DeRaad
      68 Camaro RSx
      Darton Sleeved LS9 - 434ci (4.155x4.00)
      AFR LSX245 Heads (12:1cr)
      660hp/588tq

    8. #8
      Join Date
      Sep 2002
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      So. Cal
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      Quote Originally Posted by Vegas69 View Post
      Ouch, looks like we are both in the same boat. Mine is torn down to the bare block as of yesterday. I like this part of it probably the best.
      What happened to your's?
      Ron DeRaad
      68 Camaro RSx
      Darton Sleeved LS9 - 434ci (4.155x4.00)
      AFR LSX245 Heads (12:1cr)
      660hp/588tq

    9. #9
      Join Date
      Sep 2006
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      Henderson,NV
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      2,870
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      Engine builder matched the wrong distributor gear with the cam. Ate up the bronze gear and all that debris went through the motor. 1500 miles later still getting particles. Bearings have debris embedded and pitted. Time for some upgrades.
      Todd

    10. #10
      Join Date
      Sep 2002
      Location
      So. Cal
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      Quote Originally Posted by shmoov69 View Post
      that blows. Did it damage the cyl's?
      1500 is hot, but it should be able to take it for short bursts shouldn't it? I know mine has taken that a bunch and even 1400 for long drives.....read LONG! Like one leg of the power tour long! (Had a bad timing issue)
      Looks more like the rings butt ended and popped the top, kinda like detonation.
      I think I'm good on the block. Don't see any damage.

      I've run a good while on this motor with 1400-1500 deg short runs. It probably would have lasted forever on the street. I think I amplified my problem when I increased my timing from 25 to 27 at WOT. Decreased my EGT's by 100 deg when I did this. (as it does during cuise mode when I increased) Even though I didn't hear detonation, I'm sure it was there. Boosted compression ratio is 13-14:1. Probably should have added 100 oct for the track day.

      Do you know what your timing did when you had the high EGT's? (retard?)

      I need to find out if these statments are true--would explain allot and fall in line with what I'm seeing.

      Retard timing= reduces cylinder temps but increases EGT's
      Advance timing= increases cylinder temp but reduces EGT's
      Ron DeRaad
      68 Camaro RSx
      Darton Sleeved LS9 - 434ci (4.155x4.00)
      AFR LSX245 Heads (12:1cr)
      660hp/588tq

    11. #11
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      Sep 2002
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      Quote Originally Posted by Vegas69 View Post
      Engine builder matched the wrong distributor gear with the cam. Ate up the bronze gear and all that debris went through the motor. 1500 miles later still getting particles. Bearings have debris embedded and pitted. Time for some upgrades.
      Damn--that bites!! He's gonna help with rebuild costs..yes?
      Ron DeRaad
      68 Camaro RSx
      Darton Sleeved LS9 - 434ci (4.155x4.00)
      AFR LSX245 Heads (12:1cr)
      660hp/588tq

    12. #12
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      Jun 2001
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      Newbury Park, CA
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      I agree with you Ron on the non-audible detonation. With that kind of power/CI ratio, boost pressure, and pump gas.....

      Sorry, I don't have any good Ford parts.
      VaporWorx. We Give You Gas http://www.vaporworx.com

    13. #13
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      Sep 2002
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      Quote Originally Posted by RSX302 View Post

      Retard timing= reduces cylinder temps but increases EGT's
      Advance timing= increases cylinder temp but reduces EGT's

      I read an article last night brousing the web that stated "doing nothing else but Retarding timing will increase EGT's"

      Stands to reason if you increase timing, you will reduce EGT's.

      So, burn up the turbo or burn the pistons--take your pick. If you run tube headers, only the coating will suffer.
      Ron DeRaad
      68 Camaro RSx
      Darton Sleeved LS9 - 434ci (4.155x4.00)
      AFR LSX245 Heads (12:1cr)
      660hp/588tq

    14. #14
      Join Date
      Feb 2002
      Location
      Springfield, MO
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      Well, my egt's were high forever until I got a 6AL-2 box this spring. The best thing for the car by far! Before I had the timing advance locked at 24 with a 6A box. That made the cruise temps 1300+ normal. The time on the PT that it got so high was when it started in TX and it was running goofy so I checked the timing and it was off the mark. Bad! So I reset it and it drove to MO and ended up changing the P/S lines that night because the heat of 1400+ for about 5-6 hours cooked the lines. I also changed the pumpkin that night to a "beside the shed in a bucket" 2.70 gear that a friend had on the quick. I thought it was the gear ratio since I just changed it to a 3.70 that I had laying around because my 3.00 did not work that I had just changed earlier due to a bad locker that I got from someone on here.....but that is another story entirely, sorry I got off track there, ADD ya know! Lol
      anyhoo, I thought the engine RPM was the problem so I changed that and was on our way the next AM and made it only about 3 hours away and lost an oil line to the turbos, at that piont I gave up and called for help and trailered it home. I let it sit for several weeks while I was discusted. I tell you all this story to say that when I got to work on it and get the engine washed off from the oil, I happened to look at the balancer and it just didn't look right so I reached down to wiggle it and it wiggled! Turns out that the balancer bolt came out and had ate up the front of the crank and the balancer. So, the timing "adjustment" that I made in TX only slowed the timing enough to cause the super high EGTs. Got a steel crank after that tho! Lol.

      But yes, slower timing will cause higher EGTs and faster timing will cool the EGTs.....to a point and then it will go the other way.

      Wow, 27* at wot seems a bit high to me on pump gas, but maybe Fords like more? Mine will only do 24-25 max at wot on pump gas before it gets into rattle.
      Jimmy

      69 Camaro Twin Turbo'd
      58 Nomad 348 Baby Rat

      http://www.fquick.com/shmoov69


    15. #15
      Join Date
      Feb 2002
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      Springfield, MO
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      Oh, I don't understand about burning up the turbos from fast timing. What am I missing here?
      Jimmy

      69 Camaro Twin Turbo'd
      58 Nomad 348 Baby Rat

      http://www.fquick.com/shmoov69


    16. #16
      Join Date
      Sep 2002
      Location
      So. Cal
      Posts
      1,179
      Quote Originally Posted by shmoov69 View Post
      Well, my egt's were high forever until I got a 6AL-2 box this spring. The best thing for the car by far! Before I had the timing advance locked at 24 with a 6A box. That made the cruise temps 1300+ normal. The time on the PT that it got so high was when it started in TX and it was running goofy so I checked the timing and it was off the mark. Bad! So I reset it and it drove to MO and ended up changing the P/S lines that night because the heat of 1400+ for about 5-6 hours cooked the lines. I also changed the pumpkin that night to a "beside the shed in a bucket" 2.70 gear that a friend had on the quick. I thought it was the gear ratio since I just changed it to a 3.70 that I had laying around because my 3.00 did not work that I had just changed earlier due to a bad locker that I got from someone on here.....but that is another story entirely, sorry I got off track there, ADD ya know! Lol
      anyhoo, I thought the engine RPM was the problem so I changed that and was on our way the next AM and made it only about 3 hours away and lost an oil line to the turbos, at that piont I gave up and called for help and trailered it home. I let it sit for several weeks while I was discusted. I tell you all this story to say that when I got to work on it and get the engine washed off from the oil, I happened to look at the balancer and it just didn't look right so I reached down to wiggle it and it wiggled! Turns out that the balancer bolt came out and had ate up the front of the crank and the balancer. So, the timing "adjustment" that I made in TX only slowed the timing enough to cause the super high EGTs. Got a steel crank after that tho! Lol.

      But yes, slower timing will cause higher EGTs and faster timing will cool the EGTs.....to a point and then it will go the other way.

      Wow, 27* at wot seems a bit high to me on pump gas, but maybe Fords like more? Mine will only do 24-25 max at wot on pump gas before it gets into rattle.
      Ok cool thanks..that fits to what I was thinking.

      I originally had 25* at WOT and the EGT's would hit 1500-1550 on longer pulls. I though that this would burn up the turbos if I left it this way. I tried 26* and 27* and the EGT's came down with no sign of rattle or power loss. EGT's came down to 1400 at WOT. I was happier with that, but I guess I put more heat into the cylinder and killed the pistons in the process. I should have used 100oct for more protection.

      I will rebuild with around 8.8:1 so I can stay on pump gas and hopefully keep the egt's at bay.
      Ron DeRaad
      68 Camaro RSx
      Darton Sleeved LS9 - 434ci (4.155x4.00)
      AFR LSX245 Heads (12:1cr)
      660hp/588tq

    17. #17
      Join Date
      Feb 2002
      Location
      Springfield, MO
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      I Wonder what the EGTs are on an F1 car? I know that the turbos glow on a dyno when they runn them.
      I wonder how hard it would be to "burn up" a turbo? Short of oil starvation that is. Granted, I do understand that their turbos are prolly a bit better than ours! Lol!
      Jimmy

      69 Camaro Twin Turbo'd
      58 Nomad 348 Baby Rat

      http://www.fquick.com/shmoov69


    18. #18
      Join Date
      Aug 2004
      Location
      Rustburg, Virginia
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      Quote Originally Posted by shmoov69 View Post
      I Wonder what the EGTs are on an F1 car? I know that the turbos glow on a dyno when they runn them.
      I wonder how hard it would be to "burn up" a turbo? Short of oil starvation that is. Granted, I do understand that their turbos are prolly a bit better than ours! Lol!
      Wonder what rpms those bearings see in the F1 turbos...the engines themselves are whipping along upwards of 14K...
      1970 RS/SS350 139K on the clock:
      89 TPI motor w/ 1pc rear seal coupled to a Viper T56 via Mcleod's modular bellhousing w/ hydraulic T/O bearing from the Viper, 12 bolt rear w/ 3.73 gearing, SC&C upper control arms, factory lowers with Delalums, C5 brakes at all four corners, Front Wheels 17x8's with Sumi 255/40/17 and Rear Wheels 17x9's with Sumi 275/40/17.
      Brief description of the work done so far can be found here: http://www.nastyz28.com/forum/showthread.php?t=112454


    19. #19
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      Jul 2003
      Location
      Anaheim Hills, CA
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      Quote Originally Posted by RSX302 View Post
      I will be disassembling and check everything with a fine tooth comb.

      After pulling off the drivers side head, it got into #8 cyl as well.

      Block looks ok, but my biggest concern at this moment is the heads. Started melting and some of the piston stuck to them. I'm hoping I can mill off .005-.010" and clean-up.
      I was going to offer to help, but then I remembered it was a ford engine.. lol

      Hope you get it all sorted out easily.. I'm getting ready to pull Penny's engine for a new one two (bigger one)
      "A ship in port is safe, but that's not what ships are built for."

      1968 Track Rat Camaro:
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGHJ5c1yLIo&t=2s

      1971 Chevelle Wagon with a few mods:
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBVPR3sRgyU

    20. #20
      Join Date
      Sep 2002
      Location
      So. Cal
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      Newer F1 engines don't use turbos anymore. They are amazing still.
      Ron DeRaad
      68 Camaro RSx
      Darton Sleeved LS9 - 434ci (4.155x4.00)
      AFR LSX245 Heads (12:1cr)
      660hp/588tq

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