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  1. #1
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    Feb 2008
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    148

    PPM/ Proforged tall ball joints for 1st gen Camaro - Chevelle

    http://www.s10forum.com/forum/f178/p...3/#post6048706

    im sure lots of you have heard of and know powerperformance and their balljoints. they are considering R&D and production of tall balljoints for us, and as of now are gauging interest/demand level.

    Quote Originally Posted by Power Performance
    We've received some requests for a "tall" version of our upper S10 ball joints.

    We just green lighted production on the 1st gen Camaro / A-body "tall" upper ball joints. I'm considering doing the S10 ones too, but have concerns that there isn't enough demand for them.

    So...how many people would be interested in this?




  2. #2
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    Mar 2006
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    NW Burbs, IL
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    Link to their site/product?

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
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    148
    well this is their 'feeler' on whether or not they want to produce them for us or not.
    http://www.powerperformancemotorsports.com/main.sc
    this is their main site

  4. #4
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    Sep 2001
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    Accord, NY
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    They're asking about S10 interest?
    69 Camaro convertible, 410, M22, 8-pt cage therapy program. SOLD.
    68 camaro - SOLD
    67 Bel Air - New street project with perfect floors, frame and trunk!

  5. #5
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    Mar 2006
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    NW Burbs, IL
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Dorion View Post
    They're asking about S10 interest?
    Yes. They also mentions that A-body BJ's are in production:

    "We just green lighted production on the 1st gen Camaro / A-body "tall" upper ball joints. I'm considering doing the S10 ones too, but have concerns that there isn't enough demand for them."

    Is there a link to the A-body stuff?

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
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    148
    ill send him a message with those questions.

    since ive never had a g-body i wouldnt know, but the balljoints from s10 and gbody are a direct swap correct?

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
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    Newark DE
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    Quote Originally Posted by greencactus3 View Post
    but the balljoints from s10 and gbody are a direct swap correct?
    Yes. The UCA, LCA, spindles and ball joints are all the same. The front bushing in the LCA has a larger inside diameter for the S trucks.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
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    148
    Quote Originally Posted by bochnak View Post
    Yes. They also mentions that A-body BJ's are in production:

    "We just green lighted production on the 1st gen Camaro / A-body "tall" upper ball joints. I'm considering doing the S10 ones too, but have concerns that there isn't enough demand for them."

    Is there a link to the A-body stuff?
    got a response
    Quote Originally Posted by PowerPerformance
    They are on the path to production. I think they will be ready for sale June 1 - I wish it could be sooner, but we are swamped.

  9. #9
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    Mar 2006
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    No mention of price at this point?

  10. #10
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    Nov 2006
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    112
    I would be interested, if don't compromise strength and durabilty. Wouldn't mind a set on my DD. The chevelle gets all the pricey brand name parts, and the DD can get generic brand. Put me on the list, Ill take a set for the GMC.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
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    there's some new info over at S10forum.com...

    http://www.s10forum.com/forum/f178/p...w-open-404441/

  12. #12
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    Mar 2006
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrSuspension View Post
    there's some new info over at S10forum.com...

    http://www.s10forum.com/forum/f178/p...w-open-404441/
    Thanks. Posted it over at the chevelle forum also:

    http://www.chevelles.com/forums/show...82#post2387282

  13. #13
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    Oct 2007
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    Newark DE
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    Great, right after I get the Howe's.

  14. #14
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    Jul 2002
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    Mesquite, TX
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    Query, though:

    Why would one want to go with these rather than the Howe tall balljoints? I know the Howes cost a little more, but are "rebuildable", right?

  15. #15
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    Mar 2006
    Location
    NW Burbs, IL
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    283
    Quote Originally Posted by derekf View Post
    Query, though:

    Why would one want to go with these rather than the Howe tall balljoints? I know the Howes cost a little more, but are "rebuildable", right?
    How much does it cost to rebuild a Howe? Can one do it themselves?

  16. #16
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    Oct 2007
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    Newark DE
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    Quote Originally Posted by derekf View Post
    Query, though:

    Why would one want to go with these rather than the Howe tall balljoints? I know the Howes cost a little more, but are "rebuildable", right?
    Depending what wears out the PP ball joints might be cheaper then the rebuild parts plus they are forged so they should be stronger.
    Howe parts
    http://www.howeracing.com/c-510-howe...ll-joints.aspx
    Rebuild instructions (PDF)
    http://www.howeracing.com/Adobe/BallJointsPrecision.pdf

  17. #17
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    Sep 2004
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    PA.
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    I have a box full of the PP balljoints on the workbench right now,including some they haven`t listed yet. Despite the EXTREME DUTY moniker they`re really stock replacement type ball joints just 1/2" taller. Mind you I`m not saying they`re EXTREME DOODIE at all either. The quality looks just fine but I haven`t seen anything yet from the parts themselves or heard anything from the manufacturer that makes them qualitatively better than stock. They do use a forged upper housing vs. the stamped stock one but I`ve never seen or even heard of an upper housing failure so I`m not sure why they chose to change that particular area. Forging vs. machined from billet steel is only one very small factor and by no means makes one stronger than another unless you know the alloys used, heat treat used and they`re of exactly the same design otherwise, which these certainly are not.
    I`ve asked to see some comparitive testing vs. OE parts to see how the additional height affects durability on these basically OE format ball joints. The tests that they`ve shown me so far at least look fine but were done in a vacume (no control parts to compare them to). Personally I`d like to see much better than stock numbers because the factory engineers at GM never imagined the severe performance use we put these cars through today.
    The Howe balljoints are on a whole different level than OE parts (as they should be), better alloys, better heat treat,better construction, better quality control etc. and have been used so extensively by motorsports and even the military that their outstanding durability is a matter or record thus we feel very comfortable using them in tall pin high performance applications. For those who care they`re also made entirely in the good ol USA.
    Howe ball joints are rebuildable for race cars that crash at high speeds. Impacts that destroy stock ball joints outright usually just require a simple pin change (take a few seconds and yes, you can do it yourself) for the Howes. In actual racing use up to an including Sprint Cup they generally outlast premium stock ball joints 5:1. You will never have to rebuild them in your street car, unless you use it as a taxicab. We have a set with near 100,000 hard miles on them with no measurable wear in them yet.
    Like any new part these new PP balljoints will have to prove themselves. I`m giving them careful consideration as a possible budget alternative to the Howes for street driven cars looking for modest performance gains (since we`d only have one height to work with,at least for now). They may well find a niche there. I want to see some more data and do some testing of our own on some final production parts but so far I`m still considering them as a possibility. I`m a firm believer that parachutes and minds are the same, both work best when they`re open. Mark SC&C
    Last edited by Marcus SC&C; 06-11-2009 at 07:37 AM.
    Mark Savitske
    www.SCandC.com
    610-381-6100
    [email protected]
    Author of:
    How to Make Your Muscle Car Handle

  18. #18
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    Aug 2008
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    new braunfels, tx
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    marcus, did you ever get any additional information from the power performance guy? have you installed these on one of your cars, driven on them, and beat the hell out of them?

  19. #19
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    Jan 2009
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    My name is Zack Kanter and I own Power Performance Motorsports. Moderators: I won't be posting up any pricing or links to our website, I just want to put some information out there before the rumor mill gets going. I hope that this is within the rules of the forum.

    We've been working on these "tall" ball joints for 7 months and we have finally finished the first production run.I wanted to share some of the R&D that has gone into them - we're pretty proud of the finished product, but I know P-T can be a tough crowd and we are going to have to prove ourselves!

    Our ball joints are made using forged SAE4130 ball studs with high-polished ball heads. The studs are situated inside a forged, SAE1045 greasable housing. The housing are e-coated black - the coating is virtually impermeable to rust and is capable of passing a 240 hour salt spray test. We seal the unit with our signature, ring-retained, accordion-style boot. The boot design is crucial for the longevity of the ball joint - the traditional, clamp-on style boot is prone to tearing or pulling out of the clamp, which causes rapid wear once the joint is exposed to the elements.



    We're no stranger to heavy duty applications. While we're relatively new to the musclecar market, we have a fairly big following in the offroad as well as lowered truck market. We also supply ball joints, idler arms, tie rod ends, and center links to many of the "big name" musclecar suspension companies out there. Here is an example of one of our customers "exercising" our ball joints (note: I don't recommend anyone doing this. It voids the warranty for sure :D):



    After listening to the demands out there, we were told that a 0.5" extended length upper and lower ball joint for the Chevelles/Camaros/Novas would be optimal, so we started investigating some designs. Now, we've made the standard size A/F/X upper and lower ball joints for many years and sold many thousands of them with no problem, so I have a lot of confidence in the housing design. We use a forged housing for maximum stud pullout strength. Power Performance focused most of the effort on validating the stud design - whenever you're going to add length into a stud, you want to make sure that the stud is still going to be strong enough.

    As a benchmark, we went out and purchased a set of boxed MoogŪ Problem SolverŪ ball joints and a set of what we call the "GS" (gold standard) 0.5" extended length ball joints that are popular on this forum. We performed two tests - stud pullout and stud impact. A stud pullout test measures the amount of force required to pull the stud out of the housing (higher number is better). A stud impact test is performed by screwing the stud into a wall and dropping a 110 lb weight from 5 feet onto the ball head. The angle of deviation is then measured (a lower number is better, as it means the stud is stronger).

    A note about the tests - these are not independent, 3rd party tests. While I am very confident in the results, I am going to avoid naming the competitor's parts because they aren't independently verified. That being said, I would be happy to submit samples of our products for independent testing if any other manufacturer wants to go head to head.

    The results are as follows:

    Stud Pullout Testing - Peak Force

    Upper
    MoogŪ: 18,284 lbs
    GS brand: 16,812 lbs* <---this test was performed on a second-gen Camaro version, as we didn't have a first-gen version available at the time of test
    PPM: 18,481 lbs
    NOTE: Each of these 3 ball joints VASTLY exceed the ~10,000 lb stud pullout rating of the original GM stamped upper ball joint

    Lower
    MoogŪ: 19,686 lbs
    GS brand: 16,929 lbs
    PPM: 19,649 lbs


    (the "GS" ball joint is shown, post-pullout test. It failed in the expected area - a crack in the housing)

    Stud Impact Testing - Degrees of Deviation

    Upper
    MoogŪ: 36 degrees
    GS brand: 23 degrees
    PPM: 23 degrees

    Lower
    MoogŪ: 20 degrees
    GS brand: 13 degrees
    PPM: 15 degrees


    (the Stud Impact Test machine)


    (studs are shown post-impact test)

    As you can see, the Power Performance and the "GS" ball stud are quite a bit stronger than the MoogŪ part. The really interesting thing is that the MoogŪ part is standard length - if it were 0.5" longer, it would be even weaker! We accomplish the massive additional strength through special heat treat processes, higher quality steel, and a fundamentally better stud design.

    The final thing we focused on was a low friction design. We investigated several designs out there and found that "low friction" designs on the market use a reduced rate spring in the ball joint to reduce friction. Well, you're essentially buying a half-worn ball joint because a weak spring will take half the time to wear out of spec.

    Instead, we polished the ball stud after machining for smooth, low-friction operation. A before-and-after photo can be seen below.



    I hope that this addresses some questions about our products. After 7 months of investigating the "other" designs out there, I have a lot of respect for the "gold standard" ball joint. It is a very nice piece - the only bad thing I can say about it is the price!

    The main advantage of the "GS" ball joint is the ability to easily swap in different length ball studs. If you plan on playing around with many different length combinations, our ball joints are not for you. If you want to use a 0.5" extended length upper or lower ball joint, then our's are exactly what you need.

    Power Performance has a 1,000,000 mile warranty against manufacturer's defects - and we receive virtually 0 warranty claims each year.

    We look forward to answering any questions or concerns that you all may have. Below are some product photos for you to review:












  20. #20
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
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    Huntington Beach, CA
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    Are tall lower ball joints cumulative with the uppers for camber gain or is that to lower the vehicle?

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