UPDATE 4/28/05 My engine is ALIVE!!!!! It runs again!!!!!

[68protouring454]

adam the 3 rockers in the middle on the drivers side head are dry, the others look ok, and the passneger side looks ok, i wonder what ius going on to make just those dry??
jake

[slck6t9]

Adam sorry about the engine but are those your girlfriends jeans stuffed under the manifold? HA HA

[ProdigyCustoms]

Weird why it is getting some wet, but not others. The cam is a touch bigger then I guessed from pics, at 500+ lift, One thing I would seriously consider would be at least some roller tip rockers, or some true rollers. You may simply be pushing the stock arms with spring pressure and lift travel.
Whatever though, the oiling is a real issue. I seriously doubt your builder installed oil limiters, but you could ask. Limiters are usually for rollers.
Also, your a little small in the cam and heads for 500HP. Head flow alone would limit you to lower 400HP numbers. You'll need to work those heads big time (or step up to aftermarkets) and maybe up the cam a tick to see 500HP.

[Mark Antrim]

I went to the garage to get my catalogs and this is what I see. The crank is a cast steel eagle crank which matches the rods. the pistons are a flat top 2 valve relief. Cant see what you casting number for your heads so if they were 64cc chamber heads it would be 10.9:1, If they were 76cc chambers it would be 9.6:1. The valve guides are just a cast iron replacement guide. As far as the springs they are for that cam and are a dual spring setup.
I dont like the three rockers being dry. I agree that the heads are going to limit you on horsepower. Even with porting them, it might not still make 500 hp. Let me know if I can help with anything. Not trying to sell my self but I run a machine shop. I'll look over you info you have already given and see if there is anything I might be overlooking.
Do you have any more adjustment on the rockers? It lookes like they might have bottomed out or are close.

Mark Antrim

[yody]

no way you making 500 HP with those heads!! you probably have about 9.6-1, otherwise you would be pinging like crazy! Time to pull motor(and clean that engine compartment!) and disassemble it, something is not right. There are too many variables here, you need to bite the bullit and pull it, at the same time you could slap on some aftermarket heads and get a bunch more horse, your cam is pretty healthy cam with 240/246 @.050 duration. I think it matches your combo well(except for your heads) sounds like you have a decent engine, you need to pull it apart and ask us questions and post pictures along the way. Good luck, you can probably have this motor out, fixed and in within a few weeks.

[ProdigyCustoms]

I am guessing they are 041 castings with the triangle on the face of the head? Unless they have milled big time, these guys are right on the compression, although they can easily be milled to 64cc or less to make your 11:1.

[ProdigyCustoms]

Did you miss the post earlier when he he said cash was tight? I doubt he will be doing anything more then needed.

[chicane67]

~So Matt, you "Hate Trick Flow" because of what?? ......because you tried to stuff a broomstick camshaft into an engine with real spring pressure and you didnt account for that??

~Now thats funny.

Adam~ 400 hp sounds about right for that cam and peripherals. You are not going to get 500hp with .510 at the valve..... and I dont care if you ran 318* total duration, but your builder was correct by not installing something you didnt need camshaft wise.

Do me a favor and pull the number 3 and 5 plugs out and tell me what you see. Heck, if you can, take pictures...

[yody]

"......because you tried to stuff a broomstick camshaft into an engine "
that is plain hilarious! but on another note you sure are harsh lately, but i am getting a kick out of it! he probably doesn't like trickflow because he had the twisted wedge heads that were flawed. I didn't see the post about adam being on a budget, i still say he pulls the motor. that is the only way to do it, don't waste time trying to dodge it.

[Matt@RFR]

Nope. I hate Trick Flow because when I built that motor, I was 15. I called them and told them my age, my inability to pick the correct valve springs, and asked for help getting a set of springs for my heads to be used with my .49x lift cam. When I got the springs in the mail, I called again asking if they were sure these were the right springs, because they looked awfully stout to me; They said they'd be fine. They had me measure the relaxed height, coil diameter and diameter of the springs to make sure I didn't get shipped the right part number but wrong springs (which I appreciated). I even went so far as to ask them if there was a good way to break the cam in with these springs, and they said no.

I had the heads assembled for me and then (with the help of a long time engine builder) put the engine together.

Fast forward 20,000 miles. I finally complain to the guy that helped me assemble the motor that I have a couple valves ticking and I can't get rid of it, no matter how many times I run the valves (hyd flat tappet, by the way). It's at this point that we tore the thing down and found three lobes gone and a couple others on their way, along with a very nicely "clearenced" oil pump and main/rod/cam bearings.

My friendly local machine shop checked the valve springs (now it's been a long time, but these numbers are pretty close to what they measured): On the seat was close to 280psi and open was something like 700psi. Roller springs. Oopsie!

So now, we drop the heads off at the machine shop again to have them put different springs in them while we rebuild the motor. Machine shop calls the next day saying that ALL the guides have between .010-.015 clearance. (After 20,000 miles?????) I say change 'em. They say ok. They call back and say that they can't press the guides out. They even sent them to another machine shop and they couldn't press 'em out either. wtf. By the time I had someone machine the guides out, press new ones in, do a valve job and assemble, I could've bought a brand new set of heads....and they would've done the same thing in another 20,000 miles. I understand that the first version of the twisted wedge heads had the rocker arm geometry wrong and would eat guides. Again, wtf.

So I'm back on the phone with Trick Flow. I told them what happened, and all I wanted to do was make them aware of the situation so it didn't happen again. I was told, "Well, you shouldn't have run those springs, click" No kidding? Gee, thanks for the tech support.



So there ya have it, that's why I hate Trick Flow. Thanks for ASSuming though, it's appreciated.

[68protouring454]

you just need to read the whole thread to see that he may not be able to get it running till next spring, seems like you get too excited and miss posts on threads, cause you have one thought on your mind, that one thought i have no idea what it is
jake

[CAMAROBOY69]

Guys I know I dont have 500 hp lol You read my reply out of context. When I first told my engine guy to set me up for 500 hp he got most of the way thru the build up and THEN he said I needed aluminum heads and different cam to get to 500hp. I KNOW I have about 400+ hp,. Thats what I already said. I already plan on AFR heads or some aluminum heads but thats a different topic for when I have money. ;)
The rocker arms supposed to be longer than stock because of the cam.
Yeah I am flat broke with no sign of any money coming till income tax season.
Ill pull the plugs and lifters some time soon and let you know what I see. After that I guess I will start tearing the heads apart. Damn that sucks.
This is what I would consider for next year to get to the power tour and to Woodward:
1. If I don't have money: I will pull the engine out of my white truck and put it into the Camaro to get me around. I dont have to go fast to have fun with the car. ---or---
2. If I somehow get some money then I will get new aluminum heads and everything I need to get my 400hp stroker up to 500hp.
EDIT: As for the compression. My car does not like anything under 92octane.
EDIT: Anyone interrested in these heads if I sell them? Mabey another topic for that. Hmm not sure
Edit: What is the third spring that I see in each valve? I see 3 springs.

[Matt@RFR]

Adam, that third "spring" is actually a dampner. No tech beyond that, sorry.

[chicane67]

Yodi~ Yea, every now and then I get a little snappy with the humor.

Matt~ What a fiasco that was. I wasnt picking on you, I was just getting a little 'poke in the ribs' on ya. My assumption was all in the name of good (albiet granular) humor. But I did however, especially like the part where (you) they stated:

.......I even went so far as to ask them if there was a good way to break the cam in with these springs, and they said no.

No? Then why would you sell them? Or at least advise to run it in with tender springs first........

Even after you requested a spring for a 0.49x lift cam.......and you recieved a spring that the seat was close to 280psi and open was something like 700psi........that is a dam good reason to be a hater. I feel your pain, now that I know the story. Those springs would make a broomstick out of anything this side of steel billet.


Adam~ Yup. Any problem like this sucks. A good thing is all of the upgrades you will be able to do !!! The bad thing is........no moola to get it back into shape as soon as you want it !! I hate patience.......but this is part of the learning curve. Just take your time during the teardown, and look at everything very carefully. You can learn a-lot from a/the teardown and you might possibly find the culprit to its failure.

The dampner spring is to eliminate the spring bounce at high rpm when using higher spring pressures. It pretty much tries to keep the valve on the seat when the valve closes, so that it does not bounce off of the seat, when the valve slams closed because of high spring pressure.

[CAMAROBOY69]

Upon request here are pics of the engine with the driver side head off. I just dont understand. I dont see any damage to the pistons, lifters, or the heads. Im lost. What do you see wrong? Anything else you want pics of? The engine is so new I can still see the hone marks!

[gEtyOpAPiOn]

is it me or the valves look like they not seated right ?

[CAMAROBOY69]

I guess no one has any idea at all so I will put it back together.

[CAMAROBOY69]

is it me or the valves look like they not seated right ?

I just got home and after a second look I think you are right! All 4 exhaust valves look like this on this head.

[68protouring454]

put a flashlight on stem side of valves in exhaust port and see if you can see light, those should have at least a 3 angle valve job done to them, also might be worth installing with old gasket and take a compression test, should be up around 170 or so all the way around
jake

[ZZ430]

It's not unusual for the exhaust valves to stick up a little, they are thicker than the intakes.

Try filling the combustion chambers with solvent and see if they seal.