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  1. #1
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    Jul 2002
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    Total Seal Gapless Rings (from old site)

    ChevyIIMan
    Registered User
    Posts: 49
    (11/6/03 5:28 am)
    Reply Total Seal Gapless Rings
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    Anyone on here use them? I am thinking about using them when I freshen up my motor this winter. I dont have any plans for Nitrous or Boost on the motor.

    gmachinz
    Unregistered User
    (11/6/03 5:35 am)
    Reply signed, SEALED and delivered.
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    I do not use total seal rings because they do not allow for the heat expansion of the rings themselves so when they get hot, they crack. Also, they increase cylinder scuffing/wear and require a periodic inspection/replacement. I would leave them for strictly race motors-I don't think they are good for a street car. You'd have great idle characteristics/vacuum but the tradeoff is periodic replacement and/or cylinder honing.

    ChevyIIMan
    Registered User
    Posts: 51
    (11/11/03 12:38 am)
    Reply thanks
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    Yeah I read around and heard the same things. Although I may try their quick seat paste with some moly rings, my last rings took forever to seat.

    Here2RamU
    Registered User
    Posts: 8
    (11/14/03 2:33 pm)
    Reply But...
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    I thought the ends of the ring were basically flanged, allowing them to slide over one another? Wouldn't this allow for eat expansion? And how do they cause more wear?

    gmachinz
    Unregistered User
    (11/14/03 4:20 pm)
    Reply Total Seal not for me...
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    There appears to be a problem (my experience anyway) with the rail of the ring breaking-which compromises the integrity of that ring which in turn scratch up the cylinder walls. By design, rings tend to "flutter" in there machined piston grooves as the piston moves up and down in the cylinder. As they do this, they need to be able to flex or else they can break, with a traditional ring, the end gap provides this ability to a certain extent but the rail section in the total seal rings do not. I realize the claim Total Seal makes on their rings which are engine dynometer tested-not real world tested, and that they are excellent for "all applications" but I have not had the best of luck with them. They do perform as described in reference to blow-by elimination but for actual "load" conditions such as high RPM blasts, nitrous, etc. they have come up short for me. Also, think about this: the rail design is supposed to move or "slide" in and out of the low tension ring-now if you should have any piece of foreign debris get lodged in that crevice while the engine was running and it stays there after the engine has cooled....then on a cold start up if that ring has not "released" so to speak, then the damn ring itself will burr the cylinder wall like crazy. So all in all, I do not think they are for a street engine-at least that's my opinion on it. They may work for some but not for me.

    Here2RamU
    Registered User
    Posts: 11
    (11/15/03 12:47 am)
    Reply Thanks
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    I see, thanks for the info. Clears some stuff up.

    MyLS1isa455
    Registered User
    Posts: 3
    (11/28/03 12:17 am)
    Reply Gapless
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    I've run TS gapless in several engines with good and fair results. Never heard of them hurting cylinders, but they can cause wierd oil control problems. I picked up about 30 psi when I switched from Speed Pro file fit to TS slant cut top ring gapless (220 vs 190). My leak-down was less than 1% for all cylinders with the gapless. However, my last engine had a problem sucking oil into the intake runners and smoking at low speed. Afetr swapping intake gaskets, oil seals and valve guides I finally fixed it with a vacuum pump (pulls 12" of vacuum), but the pumps ain't cheap.

    The racers swear by them and the gapless will make more power but may force you to buy other parts ($$$). Most street/strip folks just use a quality file-fit classic ring.

    nitrovette
    Registered User
    Posts: 19
    (11/28/03 5:15 am)
    Reply Re: Gapless
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    I use to use them in all the circle track motors i built for 10 years,not once had a problem.Leak down after all season of racing was 0-1%.The bottom ring is your gapless ring and its shaped like an L with another small ring like one of your 3rd oil control rings that lock togther with it.I would send the guys out and do 3 -10 lap sessions up to 6000rpm then let cool down then 4th session open them up to 7600rpm for 20 or so laps and they would seat fine.Now ive only used them once on the street but never ran it long enough to see any results.Ive also had good luck with street motors with childs and albert duramolys.

    camcojb
    Registered User
    Posts: 600
    (11/28/03 8:11 am)
    Reply Re: Gapless
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    I've tried them in 4 different engine, n/a and blown. Every one had great leakdown numbers, every one used oil. The oil issues stopped me from ever using them again. I use C&A or Speed Pro Plasma Moly's since without issue.

    Jody
    MY CARS

    79ZED
    Registered User
    Posts: 15
    (12/3/03 5:25 pm)
    Reply Re: Total Seal Gapless Rings
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    Hmm...don't like the sound of this. I have a set of TS Gapless top rings for my 509 I'm in the process of assembling. Are we talking about the TS 2nd or top Gapless ring set?



    I know the info I received from TS was very specific about controlling oil past the valve seals/guides, and they also mentioned decreasing the PCV valve hose diameter by using a restrictor due to negative pressure in the crankcase at low speeds.

    John
    79Z28

    camcojb
    Registered User
    Posts: 620
    (12/3/03 5:44 pm)
    Reply Re: Total Seal Gapless Rings
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    John, mine were all the second ring gapless designs; can't speak of the top ring setup they have now, but I've heard the same stories on those. This was just brought up on the Chevelle site.

    Jody
    MY CARS

    Ackattack1
    Registered User
    Posts: 113
    (12/3/03 9:07 pm)
    Reply LS1
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    several LS1 guys have used them, and the rings have created bad oil consumption issues, so most people building LS1s avoid them.

    79ZED
    Registered User
    Posts: 16
    (12/4/03 11:40 am)
    Reply Re: LS1
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    Regarding the oil consumption issue, is it due to oil being pulled past the seals/guides, or is it due to excessive oil being pulled through the PCV valve? Those are two points that Total Seal mentions that must be addressed before installing the rings. I gather from discussion with TS, that though their is a general increase in engine vacuum with the rings, the peak vacuum per cylinder is higher still as the piston decends on the intake stroke. Did anyone use TS quick Seat when assembling?

    If I keep hearing these negative reviews, looks like I'd better switch the rings before I assemble the engine. Right now I'm just checking all the clearances. Hopefuly, I wont have to re-do the cylinder honing.

    John
    79Z28

    camcojb
    Registered User
    Posts: 625
    (12/4/03 11:50 am)
    Reply Re: LS1
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    I didn't run the pcv on the blown motors and the N/A ones I disconnected it hoping to stop the oil useage; didn't work. It could be pulling it past the guides/seals, but all these motors had completely fresh heads right out of the port shop with correct guide clearances and the best seals I could buy. In that case, how do you stop it? It's embarrassing to have a nice car that smokes. In every case I swapped to the Speed Pro Plasma Moly file-fits and immediately ended the problem....completely. It's such a pain to have to pull the engine and re-do it I just gave up on trying them. The hone procedure, etc. was all done by pro engine shops, not the corner machine shop. On a couple of the cases they spoke directly with Total Seal to get exactly what they wanted.

    Again, my experience has been with the 2nd ring gapless design.

    Jody
    MY CARS

    79ZED
    Registered User
    Posts: 17
    (12/4/03 5:22 pm)
    Reply Re: LS1
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    Thanks for filling me in Jody. Looks like I'll have to make a decision soon as to whether to use the TS Gapless tops or not. Total Seal recommends spring loaded Viton type seals on the guides, but I think the ones on my AFR 315 CNC are spring loaded rubber. WIll check with AFR and TS to see if they're compatible, and while I'm at it, I'll mention the problem you, and others, on this board and the Chevelle board have had with them. If I can't get satifactory answers I guess I'll have to take the block back to Richmond Engines here in Langley BC to re-hone the block for Speed Pros.

    Thanks again for your help.

    John
    79Z28

    MyLS1isa455
    Registered User
    Posts: 11
    (12/4/03 9:49 pm)
    Reply TS rings
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    I used the gapless top ring with the slant cut ends in my current motor. Also used the TS quick seat powder and my machine shop uses TS gapless rings exclusivly in every motor they build, but they mostly build drag race and offshore boat motors - all of which use a vacuum pump. I don't believe the oil is coming from the guides or seals. I think its a phenomenon of the gapless design that requires a bit of vacuum in the crankcase under the rings at all times to prevent oil from getting past the oil rings and accumulating between the top and second rings. What's wierd is that I've had engines with TS gapless rings that never used or burned any oil.

    If you don't pull your engine very often (not a race car) then you're probably better off using a quality file-fit conventional ring. Of course, if you've already filed the TS rings and can't return them - go ahead and give them a shot.

    carreranova
    Registered User
    Posts: 20
    (12/5/03 6:11 am)
    Reply TS rings and vacuum
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    We've used the TS rings on our road racer for 2 seasons, and they have worked very well for us. We use a vacuum pump and maintain about 10inhg in the crankcase. We use the low tension oil rings and install the rings with the QS powder, and we have had no problems with oil consumption. This application is for a high-altitude 2-bbl motor.

    camcojb
    Registered User
    Posts: 629
    (12/5/03 8:16 am)
    Reply Re: TS rings and vacuum
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    You know it's sounding like the trick is to run a vacuum pump. Unfortunately most cars don't have one, but at least they seem to work good with one. Thanks for the info.

    Jody
    MY CARS

    79ZED
    Registered User
    Posts: 18
    (12/5/03 11:28 am)
    Reply Re: TS rings and vacuum
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    I have the TS Gapless top, the machined tension rin on the bottom of the 1st ring groove has the angled gap. The block has been honed per TS recommendations ( the shop has done a few of these before as well) and I do have the TS Quick Seat to put on the cylinders prior to assembly. The rings are already gapped, so no taking them back.

    The weird thing about the recommendation for use of a vacuum pump is that TS recommends the use of a 1/16" restrictor on the air inlet hose for the PCV. You would think that would decrease vacuum in the crankcase (increase crankcase pressure), yet two of you recommend the use of the pump. Hmmm..very strange.

    Haven't called Total Seal yet, but will try today or Monday.

    Thanks again for the input!

    John
    79Z28

    79ZED
    Registered User
    Posts: 19
    (12/6/03 9:39 am)
    Reply Re: TS rings and vacuum
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    Sorry, my mistake on the restrictor for the PCV system. The restrictor goes on the inlet side, not the outlet side where the PCV valve is. The net result is a decrease in pressure / increase in vacuum in the engine crankcase. Now it makes perfect sense...doh!

    That would make for less oil burning / comsumption, but I'll still talk to Total Seal on Monday to make sure I don't have problems when I get the 509 on the road.

    John
    79Z28

    79ZED
    Registered User
    Posts: 20
    (12/11/03 8:47 pm)
    Reply Total Seal Gapless Rings - Update
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    I checked with Total Seal tech on the issue of valve stem seals. You must use Viton positive seal type, which means I have to swap out the AFR rubber ones. They also mentioned that the restrictor must be used in the PVC air inlet.

    We'll see how well everything seals when I get the 509 on the road!

    John
    79Z28

    ChevyIIMan
    Registered User
    Posts: 62
    (1/5/04 11:47 pm)
    Reply TS
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    Well Ive decided not to run them since I wont be running a vac pump. But I am going to use their QS paste on the new rings.