Chevy Rumble C5 article????

[jr2]

Chevy Rumble - C5 Article I don't know if this is where this belongs but it seemd like it.



Does anyone have any opinions on the article CR did on the 21st Century Street Machines C5 front clip?

[cpederslie]

You know my opinion...

[MrQuick]

hi guys, looks like a nice set up. That new company to me so I haven't heard anything.
Wayne Due has been doing that for as few years now.You guys are in Washington have you seen his work?

[brrymnvette]

never mind

[Payton King]

This shop is about 5 minutes from my office. As seen in another post...I am getting one of these frames this week. I can tell you I spent a lot of time at the shop asking questions and looking at the design before I made my decision. I could not tell by the above post whether you did not like the article or the product. If you do not like the product...from what are you forming your opinion?

Payton

[cpederslie]

Payton,
Let me first pre-face with "opinions are like a$$holes, everyone has one!"

IMHO - I don't like the looks of the product and I didn't care for the write-up. Now, let me preface my opinion with I haven't seen their product in person and I hope that it is better looking in person than it is in the pictures. But from the pictures, I don't care for the way the subframe is constructed, the Motor mount setup would scare me with any sort of HP between the rails and just the overall design isn't appealing TO ME! The Welds looked clumpy and like they needed to be ground down, Lower control arm mounting looked out of place, etc.

That covers the clip, now the article. I quit reading after the author gave credit to them as being the innovators of C5 suspension in a direct replacement front clip for the first gen camaro. C4 front clips have been around for some years and as soon as C5 was available so were the front clips.

But, as I say that's one man's opinion. Obviously if you have spent some time looking and spent some time at the shop looking at their fabrication skills and construction and like what you see then go with it. I have spent time at a similar shop and would select their product hands down over anyone elses regardless of price! Why? Because, construction is clean mandrel bent tubing and welds that look like they were done by machine, nothing you want to grind down or cover up.

[boodlefoof]

how can you see anything in those pics they're so small? Is there some way to enlarge them? I have tried but they get very pixelated...

[jr2]

You have to see the pics in the Chevy Rumble article. The site leaves quite a bit to the imagination.

[Edward Bednar]

We are relatively new to the scene in this particular part of the hot rod business but have been around for over 30 years in Nascar. The engineer and fabricator of this particular subframe has built cars for Dale Earnhardt ,not junior,Joe Ruttman, Tim Richmond, including the car that got Tim his first road course win, Cal Yarborough,Neil Bonnett,Ken Schrader, and Ricky Rudd. If you need references call Rick Hendrick cause thats where he last worked in R&D.We're also where Henrick sends some of his hot rod fabrication. If you want drag race references we got em up to 1800hp and we're certain that the motor mounts on this car will hold up to 1000hp based on experience. Any more than that and we can set you up right still.We are building hi performance products here and I know that photos don't allow you to see much in the way of detail but the welds laid down are as pretty a bead as you'll see and will pass inspection on any track. Let me know your e-mail address and I'll send you some examples in even more difficult materials. They don't allow you to grind a weld down when you're building 200mph vehicles. That's the best way to hide a poor weld. We do do show versions of the frame all that is time and labor.We are trying to produce real performance at a reasonable price.As far as mandrel bent rails we use them in our rear mini tub kit where critical tolerances are not as necessary and can be made up. A mandrel bent rail suffers from unpredictability of compression and stretch and affects its strength, its tolerances and its harmonics.This is why hydroforming was developed by my father's R&D team when he worked at GM. I got that lecture at the dinner table 20 years ago.We can't fit the economics of a high production run into this model so we build our frame on a jig with precisely mitered pieces and specific fabrication and welding sequences so when that frame is pulled off that jig it doesn't vary by more than thousandths. This produces a frame that runs true, straight, predictably and at 200mph. We don't have editorial rights and so sometimes things may be misinterpeted and mistated in an artcle so please at times read on.The web site is still under construction and will be so probably indefinitely.So bear with us these are not small undertakings.

[dennis68]

Where is the "snap" smiley when you need it.

[kracker]

Have ever seen a Due frame? thats fab and nice welds. And who ever told you boys about mandrel bending needs to look at a AM frame the rails are nuts on every time!

[68fusion]

Have a WD clip in front of me and a mag article of 21cent ...
To me it's the difference between neat and trick vs quick and dirty...
Since I live in NC(nascar land) ive seen these type subs or clips on late model stock cars... work fine very precise but not much to look at

Just a little too "boxy" for my taste...

As for the welds on WD stuff....SHEEZ ITS PURDY...

[dennis68]

Just a quick point, I don't do business with either company so I have nothing to add about either except that when it comes to welds.......pretty does not automatically equal strong. I would much rather have full penetration triple pass root welds than single pass pretty top welds anyday.

[MrQuick]

Hey Den wheres that "leg humpers" smiley when you need it?
I've seen a Wayne Due frame in person,very impressive. The 21 Century frame I would like to see, yes I haven't SO NO NEGATIVE CRITISISM HERE. From the article it looks like some problems were addressed, no engine set back necassary...nice. one note, a nice single pass is alot better than a hide all triple pass...pretty is nice cause it shows the pride put into the work.
thanks for chimimg in Ed,maybe you can post some pictures for the natives.

[jonny51]

http://www.lateral-g.net/forum/viewt...t=21st+century

[yody]

Yeah I like pretty welds too, not welds that have been covered up 3 times!!, also i would have to inspect hte three welds to see if it looked like they had done the correct process. WHo cares if your frame falls in half, as long as the welds are pretty I'm happy, its not like I am actually going to drive the car! But really I think it is good that other companies are coming out and doing different things, gives you a good selection to choose from. Maybe someone can test out the 21century frame?

[Payton King]

Obviously Ed beat me to the answers to a few of your question which is good seeing that it is his product. The suprising thing about reading all of the above post is that some people are stating opinions and preferences like they are facts and have never seen the product...besides a few pictures? I have been on this site since I started my car project over 3 years ago and have found everyone to be helpful and postive, but I am actually quite shocked of some of your reactions to a new product coming on the market. Most would be excited that someone is trying to further the pro-touring movement and come up with a quality product. I am guessing that not one person in the above post even own an aftermarket subframe nor do they have any experience in what they drive like or what is involved to get the suspension dynamics correct. "I have looked at one and they are dead on" that may be a misquote, but was that based on an observation or did you actually measure the frame and check the tolerances? What is your experience in the area of mandrel bent metal to refute Ed's claim? As far as the appearence, just how much do you see of a stock frame when the car is together? To me the thing that is missing for all of the pro-touring products is no hard data in which to form an opinion. I have never seen a before and after or even and after test...besides the Art Morrision 55, on any of the stuff. Global West, Wayne Due , Martz, etc. Driving impressions yes, no lap times, skid pad or slalom figures. Is one product better than the other? maybe, maybe not. It depends on what you are going for. If you want a show car you will be drawn to one product and if you want performance you will be drawn to another or maybe you are somewhere in between. I know Ed is in the process of getting some hard data on his system. I can promise that as soon as my car is together we will run a battery of test and I will post the results here for everyone to see...good or bad. If you want to see my car upclose, look for me on the power tour. I will be joining in Nashville. It will be the yellow 69 with the C6 wheel and tire package.

[Salt Racer]

...We don't have editorial rights and so sometimes things may be misinterpeted and mistated in an artcle...

That happens to me all the time whenever we do some tech article for rags. We now ask editors to send us their drafts before they go into press so we can proof read. That's something you can do if they ask you guys to do tech articles in the future.


Back to the original topic, I'll keep it short & simple.

Good craftsmanship/fab skill doesn't necessarily mean good engineering. Frankly, I really don't give a fock if the rails are mandrel bent or welded together, as long as weld is structurally sound and the frame is well engineered (light and rigid).

As far as suspension goes, from what I've seen and what I read, I'd say guys at 21st know what they're doing. Just as the frame itself, fancy parts don't necessarily guarantee good suspension kinematics. It's all in where pivot points are located, but I'd say they got their ***** together. About the only thing I'd change is outer tie rod, since all of those FVSA, SVSA, IC adjustments will require tie rod adjustments at the same time.

[Edward Bednar]

I want to make sure that everyone in the forum realizes I have not been critical of anyone else product,car, project, approach, or their welds.It's not my style. I simply wanted to to clear up some misconceptions the article seems to have created on our product.There are many different ways to skin a cat. I offer explanations so you will understand our philosophy and why we approach things the way we do. This doesn't make it right, it doesn't make someone else wrong, just different. Your right Salt Racer there are different steering arms for the different adjustments that can be made on the frame. we got it covered. We'll see you on the track. Payton is also correct in that we will do real world data acquisition on all the different renditions of this car and the others we plan to proceed with in the future.I will also let you guys know that there were a number of nights when I cruised Woodward, since it is where I grew up, in the height of muscle car era where I was looking at the tail lights of a car I thought was being driven to the salvage yard. Appearances can be deceiving. Thanks for all your interest. Ed

[jr2]

My original post was for reference. Yes it was a loaded question. I have purchased a Wayne Due C-5 chassis based upon major research. I purchased this many month’s ago but the funny thing was that while I was up at Due’s Chassis shop there was another C-5 clip ready to be shipped out. I say funny because the address was 21st Century Street Machines. Never heard of them before but I thought nothing of it at the time except that someone else was going to be as lucky as I. Now that I have read the article in Chevy Rumble and received many comments here in the PT Forums I am very interested in the fact that the C-5 clip I saw at Due’s was shipped to 21st Century? Now don’t take that totally wrong. It’s not a WD clip in the article but it does tickle the thought process??

I love my WD clip! The quality is second to none as far as I am concerned. I've grown up around custom fabrication, Hot Rods and everything in between in the family and I know what excellent craftsmanship is. I made the right choice. :icon996:

C-5 Clip # 1
C-5 Clip # 2
C-5 Clip # 3
C-5 Clip # 4
C-5 Clip # 5
C-5 Clip # 6

Pictures speak for themselves.

As far as competition.
"Imitation is the most sincere form of flattery"

IMO. And I'm entitled to it.