4l60E strength???

[69ptcamaro]

I am building a 69 camaro pro touring car that will sport a procharged 468 in the 750 horsepower range. I have been looking around at transmissions available and had convinced myself to go with a 400 with a gear vendors overdrive. I then saw a transmission on ebay from http://www.maddogtransmissions.com/ and I wanted to know if anyone has had any experience with one of their transmissions. He emailed and said his godfather 4l60e (see website) would have no trouble handling my 750 horsepower. The price is only like $1700. Is it possible to even build a 4l60 that will handle that much horsepower for that kind of money. Anybodies help is greatly appreciated. Robbie

[myclone]

Although he was warned a fellow drag racer bought a mad dog trans (<-- ) and stabbed it behind a turbo V6 making just over 640 ftlbs of tq in a 3400lb AWD vehicle....the trans scattered on the second pass. In the end the only thing "mad" was the purchaser

There are quite a few builders out there that I would trust before just about anything off of ebay and no matter who builds it I would question the long term durability of a 60E/700 that will see track duty in an application over 500hp. Baby it or show it minimal abuse and it'll live for a while but if you start feeding it 700hp regularly it'll scatter.

My recomendation is a 4L80E 4sp OD trans.

[6'9"Witha69]

Think BOWLER
http://www.bowlertransmissions.com/
The prices are high but the dependability is too.
I agree that in your desired HP range an 80e or 400 w GV is a better route.

[Steve68]

4l80e, the father in laws Sonoma 4cyl, has gone through one 60e already and it's a daily driver, never loaded, it's a 99 just turned 100K, and I had to do tranny work to it last weekend,

[69ptcamaro]

Thanks for the advice guys. I didn't see anyway for a 60e to handle 750 hp with a price tag of only $1525. I will check bowler and if that is a little steep for my pocketbook, I will go with the Gear Vendors and a TH-400. Thanks again Robbie

[myclone]

I didn't see anyway for a 60e to handle 750 hp with a price tag of only $1525.

FWIW Ive put that much money in just cryo treating in an attempt to get a 700/60E to live with elevated power levels so that should give you a pretty good idea of what you'd get for $1525 in a fleabay auction that doesnt even mention cryo treating...or 5 gear GM planets, bonded pistons, name brand/quality clutches, etc etc.

[Steve68]

I was going to look for one to put in the Nova with a LS1 with a ATI Procharger get some thing modern and get rid of the BBC, But I'll focus on a 4L80 version,

[PRRC]

We do a lot of business with Monster Trans.We are a dealer for them. Anything over 600 HP and 600 Ftpounds of torque the Od units just wont live long. I would suggest the the 400 with a gear vender.We can save you a little money ordering from us. Plus Free Shipping.
Tim

[Turbo Hen]

+ another one for the th400 + GV OD unit.......but the 4l80E would be just as good if not better IMHO.....simple build along with off the shelf parts & this transmission (4l80E) will live with 700HP all day long & laugh at it. Its pretty much a th400 w/ OD.

The 4l60/700R4's are just too much maintenance when it comes to HIGH HP applications.....sure they will work, but they WILL also break & a lot sooner than a 400/4l80

-Carm

[myclone]

Anything over 600 HP and 600 Ftpounds of torque the Od units just wont live long. I would suggest the the 400 with a gear vender.Tim

Tim Id have to respectfully disagree with that unless youre only talking about the 700/60E. The 4L80E is basically a TH400 with an OD gear set/clutches installed in the front and electronic control rather than hydraulic. Its been well proven that a bone stock 80E thats not worn out with a shift kit is just getting warmed up at about 600ftlbs and with minimal aftermarket parts an 80E will dine on 1k ftlbs+ quite happily.

While I'll readily admit that the up front cost of an 80E and the control to run it are a little hard to swallow for a lot of ppl unless you go full manual valve body it just seem like a lot of monkey work going on to hang an aftermarket OD off the back of a trans when there is a quite cabable single piece that will more than suffice. Nothing again the GV unit since I rarely hear anyone have anything bad to say about their pieces but it just doesnt make sense to me. A freshened TH400 costs ~$600 a quality TC will be ~$450 then $1k+ for the GV unit and youre pushing what itd cost to just throw an 80E in there (not to mention you get a lock up TC with the 80E which you wont have with the 400/GV set up). Dont forget that even with the most basic control (TCI for example) you have almost infinate control over the transmissions shift charactoristics with just a few key strokes of a lap top instead of laying under the car swapping servos, springs, and accumulators. Dunno about the rest of you guys but I like being able to have the trans shift like a caddy at light throttle but when I climb on the loud pedal the trans shifts like its trying to detach my retinas......and the hardest part is booting the lap top up.

Below is a pic of cryo'ed 4 gear GM planet out of a 700/60E for you carnage fans. Notice the chewed up teath on the pinion gears (the sun gear looked the same). This is (was) a brand new GM piece not aftermarket or off shore junk that was cryo'ed out of the box then subjected to ~five launches on street tires with 15lbs of boost in a AWD 3400lb vehicle making just under 500ftlbs. IMO the gears themself survived until the supports cracked allowing the gear train to skew which then knocked the teeth off (note the cracked supports between the upper and lower halves). Thats just one piece of many broken ones Ive pulled out of a 700/60E that was subjected to moderate tq levels and traction (its the only one I took a pic of too).


69ptcamaro,

You do what makes your pants happy. By all means if you want a TH400/GV unit then have at it since it will make for a bullet proof slush box but before you whip out the check book at least seek out someone with an 80E and the control that runs it to see what you think of it....you'd be suprised at how much fun an electronic slush box can be if you get to play with it for a little while.

[69ptcamaro]

I am actually in the process of building two camaros, the first one will be for sale. The second one is for me to keep. If the price is somewhat comparable, I would much rather go with the 80e if the strength is good. It sounds like it is. I think the car would sell a little bit better with the overdrive instead of using the gear vendors. I am sure it would sell best with the 6 speed, but I just don't want to get into that. Basically, I want to build a top notch car that will be bulletproof. If the 80e can be bulletproof for the 700-800 horsepower my car will be making, then that will be great for me. (unless it is twice as much as a gear vendors) What do you estimate it would cost for a reputable builder to build me the 80e+converter+control unit and anything else I would need. Thanks for all the insight. I really do appreciate it. Rob

[PRRC]

OK, By me. If the 4l80 will with stand more than 600 ft lbs.Thats good to know. Monster trans on the other hand will only guarantee there units to 600 HP or 600ft lbs of torque.
Tim

[myclone]

Basically, I want to build a top notch car that will be bulletproof.

Just about anyone who circulates among transmission ppl will tell you that while not absolutely indestructable the 80E is a pretty durable piece of hardware even in stock form. GM only uses them in 3/4 ton or heavier vehicles from ~1993 and up unless they put their brute trans the allison in...Im talking abused every day fleet trucks and/or delivery trucks here that get shown no mercy day in and day out. Tons of tow rig guys, rock crawlers, mud boggers, drag racers, etc have proven that an 80E even in stock or close to stock form will take tons of abuse mile after mile then cruise home in OD with the AC on.

You may or may not have heard of a guy who goes by "Parish" on the web but he's been running an 80E in his twin turbo LSx 4wd Silverado that weighs 5000+ lbs and last I heard was running 9s. He blew up 60E's one right after another that were "bullet proof" and finally switched to a junk yard 80E with a shift kit. His trans problem went away until he finally broke the junk yard trans but he had an 80E built and its been going strong ever since. Oh, by the way...that truck makes right at 1000ftlbs last I checked.

A search of youtube or google for "Parish" will turn up tons of videos/info or just google 4L80E and do some reading from other folks since Im just one guy preaching about it.

What do you estimate it would cost for a reputable builder to build me the 80e+converter+control unit and anything else I would need. Thanks for all the insight.

I build my own trans' but if you'll PM me I can put you in touch with the guy who tought me 90% of what I know who builds 80Es and he should be able to throw some prices at you since what I have in my set up doesnt count in labor costs. However, to give you an idea of what youre looking at below is some "off the top of my head" numbers for you to look at.

1. TCI control module (PCM) bought from GP Super Store (theyre a sponsor of this site)= ~$500.
2. 96 model 4L80E out of a 2wd 3/4 ton suburban scored from the local trader mag= $125 (very seldom do you find one that cheap but it happens).
3. Transgo HD2 shift kit=$100 off of ebay.
4. Short shift linkage shaft (you'll need this since the stock piece sticks out about a mile)=$25
5. Transtar rebuild kit (stock frictions but top notch quality)=$150
6. Coan billet lock up torque converter=$1000 (I splurged on the TC since I lock it up under WOT...you can find a cheaper unit thats still a quality piece for a little more than half that).

If I did my math correctly the above is $1900 plus an extra $100 for misc do dads that Im forgetting so Id say Im pretty close to to $2k in my set up give or take a couple hundred. I havent checked into prices of the GV units in years but the last time I looked they were ~$2200 or so which means by the time you build a TH400 and aquire a TC you'll still come out about the same price once youre done. Just keep in mind that the control you have over the 80E with a PCM and a laptop is priceless IMO when compared to dialing in a 400 by laying under the car swapping governors, springs, servos, and accumulators while trans fluid is dripping in your eye.

[69ptcamaro]

Does the trans need to be out of 96 3/4 ton? If not, what years/apps can be used? Also, how much does the trans tunnel have to be altered? I'm new to the resto-rod stuff. All I have done previously is the numbers matching stuff (muncies) so I have a lot to learn about the overdrive transmission and the pro-touring suspension. I think I can pretty much cross over my knowledge on most everything else. This board is a ton of help, that is for sure. Thanks

[Jayco_Automotive]

any 91 up 4l80e con be converted to use a modulator thus eliminating the electronic controls.. We use a transgo kit called 48-mod it can be seen on the www.transgo.com website it does the folowing:

48-MOD
4L80E 91-05
Vacuum Modulator Kit: For transplants, heavy duty, high performance. Use with 4L80E-HD2

[myclone]

Does the trans need to be out of 96 3/4 ton? If not, what years/apps can be used?

Any GM truck, van, delivery box truck, etc from 94-up can be a source for the 80E as well as motor homes and buses (the short buses...seriously). Basically any GM truck/SUV type chassis thats a 2500 series (3/4 ton) or heavier that is gas or diesel is a good candidate for finding an 80E. Any 1500 (1/2 ton) or lighter full size truck/SUV will have the 4L60/4L60E so dont bother wasting your time looking under those. No RWD passenger car or light truck (aka S10) came with an 4L80E from the factory either so dont bother looking at those.

I dont use 80Es that are any earlier than 96 if I can help it but I build my own as well as procure them in the first place since it saves me time and $$$ putting updated parts in an early unit. GM had some electrical issues as well as the connector in the case for the wire harness to plug into was failure prone in the early 80Es. There is an updated harness available from GM but rather than go that route I just keep my eyes pealed for 96 and later units.

If you are scouring bone yards and want ads looking for a trans then the newer the trans the better since GM has done updates on it for strength and durability during the production run. If youre going to have someone else supply as well as build the trans then they more than likely will be aware of the internal changes and can update an older unit with no problem (the "new" stronger parts will fit the older trans'...ya just gotta know the specifics of how to do it).

There are two basic configurations of the 80E to look for if youre digging through the bone yards "transmission pile". The later trans' that have the more reliable electronics/electrical conector will have the fluid cooler line in/out ports in two seperate locations on the case where as the early units have the cooler line ports right next to each other at the bellhousing on the passenger side (the ports are in the same basic location where GM has put them for decades on other automatics). The later units ports will both still be on the passenger side but one will be located about half way back toward the rear of the trans with the other is still up next to the bellhousing.

The other way to tell what year you have is there should be a metal tag riveted to the case on the passenger side rear of the trans. It will look like the below pic and have some numbers stamped and printed on it.


Upper right hand corner will be a "P" which designates a 4L80E.
Lower left hand corner two digit stamped number is the model year (96=1996 in this instance).
Lower middle and slightly to the right stamped number is the calender year.
Lower right corner there will be a three stamped digits which is the julian date.

When I go bone yard scrounging for 80Es I look at the cooler line locations first which lets me know wheather Im looking at an early or late unit without having to actually read the tag (reading the tag isnt the easiest thing to do sometimes when digging through a pile of trans' in the rain). When I find a late model unit that has the seperate cooler line fitting location only then do I go through the trouble of cleaning the crime off the tag so I can see exactly what year the trans is.

Also, how much does the trans tunnel have to be altered?

I recall a few posts on here about floor pan/tunnel mods that are required and if I remember correctly it seems that there were minimal or no mods needed but some searching on here for the terms "tunnel 4L80E" would probably turn up those discussions to let you know for sure.

Ive never stabbed an 80E in an F body yet so Im pretty much worthless on how it will fit however, I can tell you that there are a hand full of extra "nubs" cast onto the case which the factory used for indexing during machining that can be trimmed off to gain more clearance around the tunnel and bellhousing area.

[fishtail8]

Hey guys, I swapped a 4L80E behind the big block in my 1 ton this fall. For electronics I picked up the compushift kit (www.compushift.com) . The truck had a TH400, and the fit of the 80 is just about the same. The crossmember had to be moved back about 3 inches, however there's at least 1/2-3/4" clearance around the whole trans. With Compushifts kit if you order the optional handheld display you can play with every parameter on the trans, some while driving. Shift firmness, shift timing, TCC lockup/unlock speed, when TCC locks up, etc... There's even a provision for push button shifting if one so desires. I've got 3 months on it pulling an 8000lb trailer and don't have any issues. I knocked 1000rpm off the cruise on the highway between the OD and lockup converter. Thought I'd chime in with an experience. In my opinion it's worth the cash layout for the reliability. Just my $.02...

[myclone]

For electronics I picked up the compushift kit (www.compushift.com)

The Compushift set up is a really nice unit. I spoke to one of their engineers via phone about the unit and not only was he knowledgable IMO he was a nice guy to boot (cant recall his name though). If I remember our conversation correctly if you have a lap top and the control you can do any tuning you want on the fly without having to buy the key pad which saves you a couple of bucks. Its been a while since I talked to them so verify that with Compushift before you take my word for it and find out Im wrong (the wife beats me enough...I dont need any more LOL).

I bought the TCI control simply because it was cheaper and would do everything my computer challenged self wanted to do as well as the fact I bought a FAST XFI at the same time. FAST and TCI are now one in the same company so I got a package deal on it as well as should I need tech support or warranty work later on I only had to remember one telephone number.

[69ptcamaro]

I just received my estimate for bowler transmission for a 4l80e capable of holding 800ft/lbs. It was a little out of my price range-$6500. I expected to pay top dollar to Bowler because I know they use the best stuff and take no shortcuts, but I thought it would be half of that price. My good friend can put a powerglide, 350, or 400 together with his eyes closed, would he be able to assemble a 80e without too much trouble. He is a mechanic everyday, but he is also a racer who has a car that runs 4.60s in the 1/8th so he knows his stuff on racing. I know he hasn't built an overdrive transmission before, though. How hard are they to build? I can go through the parts list and buy those parts for my transmission. The list of parts in the estimate are below. Do I need everything in the list for 750 hp or is some of that overkill. I want reliability so if that is what is cost to make a 80e reliable at that horsepower, I will be buying a gear vendors and having my friend build me a 400. Thanks

new clutches, steels, seals, and gaskets
updated reverse band
filter
new low roller sprag
new 1-2 shift solenoid
new 3-4 shift solenoid
updated molded steel direct clutch piston
new bearing kit
new bushing kit
new thrust washer kit
wide kickdown band w/ new apply piston
new pressure manifold switch
new epc solenoid
new input and output speed sensors
300M hardened input shaft
hardened 300M intermediate shaft
5-pinion rear planet
custom built billet lock-up converter
new internal wiring harness
updated boost valve
updated TCC regulator valve
shift kit
new pwm solenoid
heavy duty 34 element intermediate sprag
updated pump
new steel flywheel cover
new spicer slip yoke
new fill tube w/indicator
new steel pan
electronic control module
hayden 514 high perf. cooler
black powdercoating of case

Quite a parts list, huh?

[6'9"Witha69]

400s and 4l80s share about 2/3 to 3/4 of the same parts. Very strong and your buddy shouldn't have much issue getting the rest right.