1ST Gen Camaro - Spindle, Hub and Bearing stength, Will they fail

[ProBell]

I modified my front suspension using stock spindles,hubs and bearings. I have been to the track a few times on street tires with no problems, but am planning to use track tires next year.
The car works quite well "better than the driver" and I am getting nerves that one of the stock components might fail under the hard cornering or extended runs at high speed.
Please let me know if anyone has ever experienced part failure.
Thanks for your help Randy.

[David Pozzi]

This has been a concern of mine too.
Second gen Camaros have the same bearing package but something like 3/8" wider separation between the bearings, the spindle is pressed into a cast iron knuckle. Corvettes up through 1982 or 3 have the same bearings and spindle diameter with slightly different spacing but within 3/8" or so of a first gen camaro.

With all these Camaros and vettes out vintage racing there should be some reports of spindle breakage if there was a risk. All I've seen myself is one lower balljoint failure on a first gen. The stud shank broke where the threads join the taper. Ive seen a couple of Mustang spindle failures in vintage racing.

One other thing is, I have recieved a couple of emails from guys racing with tall NASCAR type wheels and tires. The extra height of these tires seems to flex the spindle more, and they have experienced brake pad knock back as a result. Still no spindle breakage, but they are probably close to having a failure.

I don't think the wheel bearings are weak but larger bearings would be a nice improvement. You definitely want to carefully check your wheel bearings before running on a racetrack.
David

[ProBell]

Thanks for the info. This makes me feel better. When you say taller tires do you mean a 15" rim with a slick?
Do you know of a after market spindle and hub I can buy and modify to fit my car? They would have to be based on a stock design.

[vintageracer]

If you race your car, magnuflux/crack check your spindles and other high stress suspension components every winter as part of your yearly car preperation for the next year's racing season.

Cheap, easy and provides peace of mind. All the Corvette guys running C2 cars upgrade to the C3 spindle since it uses the bigger bearings. I have often wondered about spindles breaking the my GT350. We upgraded it with 70 Mustang drum brake spindles when buildiing the car since they also have bigger bearings. In 9 years of racing and 9 crack checks, I have found no problems with the spindles. I run 6.00-15 Goodyears in the front. These are pretty big tires.

[TitoJones]

Do you know of a after market spindle and hub I can buy and modify to fit my car? They would have to be based on a stock design.

Randy-

Check out our short AFX spindle. It will bolt in place of a factory one, and it uses much larger wheel bearings via a C5 corvette hub.

Tyler

[silver69camaro]

Randy-

Check out our short AFX spindle. It will bolt in place of a factory one, and it uses much larger wheel bearings via a C5 corvette hub.

Tyler

Those C5 hubs are pretty good, but the Vette guys wear them out on track duty. A couple of the C5R drivers I've talked to check them about every season. Something to think about.

[wendell]

Mag you spindles, hubs and axels anually regardless of who sold them to you. I got to see a spindle (fabbed Coleman) failure at Beaverun in July. Lucky the only thing hurt was the drivers wallet.

[David Pozzi]

Stock Car Products makes a racing spindle that can be adapted to a First Gen Camaro but it requires a Chrysler ball joint on the bottom and a GM pickup upper BJ. They make a steering arm for it but it's got a very long steering arm. The steering arm bolts to the bottom half of the spindle and the arm also has the taper for the lower balljoint in it.

I've been told there is an "Impala" spindle that can be used, but I haven't seen one.
David

[Matt@RFR]

Mag you spindles, hubs and axels anually regardless of who sold them to you. I got to see a spindle (fabbed Coleman) failure at Beaverun in July. Lucky the only thing hurt was the drivers wallet.

Pictures?

[wendell]

Ha Matt! As you know, a wrecked car at a race track is a sensitive thing. Taking pictures of that stuff is deffinately bad form. I just helped him get it in the hauler as quickly as possible.

Basically is was a pair of stress cracks top and bottom that propogated toward the center. The last 3/8" thick horizontal segemt of the snout snapped clean. Probably took two seasons from the start of the cracking. That was a coleman snout on a fabricated coleman tall spindle.

I think a lot of peole think that parts failures are static events when in reality the part is slowly tearing over time until the final boom. Being proactive and checking out parts, even just vissually, can really help.

p.s.
you and Mark are killing it! Keep it up.

[Mean 69]

I've ranted on this one in the past, but I am not a big fan of the stock first gen spindles, only to be trumped for my utter disdain for the very early Mustang spindles. Both are really thin, aside for the geometrical dimensions that really limit how far you can go to improve things. On my own car, I still am plagued by flex somewhere in the system, which shows up in brake pad knockback after even moderate turns. I don't know where it's coming from, but I have the worst of all evils in my overall setup to make it an unpleasant experience (manual brakes with lots of piston area up front (Alcon six pots), small-ish bore M/C, rigid mounted (radially) calipers, and relatively large rotors (13 x 1.25", on a Wilwood hat). It forces me to tap the brake pedal to put the pads back out where they need to be, I tap it with the left foot slightly before corner entry, and it works pretty well, but it is very distracting for me, I am a novice driver. You can watch Boris Said doing the same thing on the in-car segments they have of his footwork, but he's a little more experienced than I am....

So, will they break? I haven't heard LOTS (meaning none for me personally) of examples of that, I'm sure there are some that are out there, but this is probably the weakest physical link in the entire suspension setup on the first gen cars. They weren't made to deal with 275 wide super sticky tires, let alone race slicks. If they DO let go, well, I'm sure it won't be a pretty picture, because as Murphy states, if it can go wrong, it will, and at the worst possible time. If you're going to run them, and run them even moderately hard, inspect them regularly, and don't powder coat them!!!! The Mustang track guys routinely magnaflux the early spindles, and routinely find them to be cracked.

And by the way, Wendell's witness of the Coleman spindle failure should be cause for concern, those piece are really, really strong. Really strong. Was he running one of the hollow pin types on that car (i.e. GN hubs), or could you see?
Mark

[wendell]

I'm supposed to feel bad for Mark because his 13" rotors, radial 6 pucks and 17" slicks are flexing his spindles.

The coleman upright had a solid pin. I got a real good look at it. It was a longterm fatigue sort of thing.

The ride I monkey around with runs GM "penske" spindles. They were magged two years ago. They checked out but will get checked again this winter. Safety first!

[BonzoHansen]

A few grade A, stupid noob questions: Are most machine shops equipped to magnaflux, or are only specialty shops set up for this? How much does it cost (I’m really thinking in relation to a new part price, not putting a price on safety)? If the part is coated (paint, powder coat or POR15 (regular or the silver with the metal bits), does that hamper the test? How about control arms? Should any other part be inspected?

Sorry if I broke the flow of a good thread.

[Mean 69]

If the part is coated (paint, powder coat or POR15 (regular or the silver with the metal bits), does that hamper the test? How about control arms? Should any other part be inspected?

EVERY part should be routinely inspected on any performance vehicle. Not many folks with hot street cars like to hear that, but the fact is stuff can and will break, no matter if it is substaqndard to begin with (which virtually always means it WILL fail), or beefcake tough. The spindle that Wendell spoke of with the solid pin is a perfect example, if you help one in your hand, you'd think there is no possible way it could fail other than a serious impact with a wall, in which case everything else would be a write-off too. People think folks are being dramatic when they say it's important to really keep an eye on things, but with the performance our cars are capable of generating these days, too much caution doesn't exist.

Yes, the coatings on any stressed component can and will make inspection far more difficult. I'm not a mag expert, the process is really straightforward and not expensive at all (any engine machine shop will have the goods), but I can say that the parts need to be bare in order for the process to identify stress fractures. Powder coating is on the top of the list of non-ideal coatings for race applications, you just can't remove it to see what's going on, and it is flexible enough to allow the base structure to fatigue/stress fracture, and in many cases hide it. Serious folks will strip all of the coatings (paint, etc) off of the pieces on a prescribed basis and do a complete inspection, then repaint.

I really hate to step on the soap box, but few folks really understand how much work goes into routine maintenance of a typical race car. You don't just load it on to the trailer and hit the track. The scary thing is that most folks that track their street cars probably don't prepare them nearly enough for track days, and that isn't good for anyone. Even with ALL precautions, you simply cannot control all aspects of "everything." If you read all of the disclaimers on race parts stating for off-highway usage, virtually always it is because of covering booty from legal actions if and when bad stuff happens, NOT because the parts aren't capable of performing on the road.

W: I guess I shouldn't bring up the fact that we have year round weather that allows track time while I'm am whining about my spindles, eh? You could be here too!

M

[silver69camaro]

Bonzo,
You bring up a good point.

IMO, a magnaflux job (or dye penetrant, etc) should be done by metallurgical test facility, not a machine shop. Machine shops typically don't have the equipment or know-how to do a COMPLETE test. Not to offend anyone, but you don't see Boeing sending parts to an auto machine shop to be tested. Neither should you, and it really doesn't cost that much at all. You'd be surprised.

Any type of coating or paint can hide cracks & fissures and is why I don't recommend it.

[wendell]

Look Mean,
It's a well known fact that all the inovative stuff comes out of inclimate weather. In order to progess, you've got to stand in front of your car for ATLEAST three months a year contemplating how to make it go faster. If I lived in socal, the #80 would still be spinning it's wheels (pun intended) and all I'd do is surf, drink cold beer on the beach and chase long legged, tanned, toned, california gir- wait. That doesn't sound half bad. Pick me up at LAX! (someday...)

[BonzoHansen]

Where does one find a "metallurgical test facility". I'm not sure I'd see that in the Yellow Pages (or would I?)

[silver69camaro]

Where does one find a "metallurgical test facility". I'm not sure I'd see that in the Yellow Pages (or would I?)

It's in our Yellow Pages under "Metallurgical Testing". If you can't find them, call some machine shops. Many shops have to get random samples tested to meet manufacturer certifications, and use such labs.

[David Pozzi]

Check with your local aiport repair facility. The FAA has them well under control. They wll do all kinds of paperwork on you and your part before even looking at it. They often have the type of magnaflux machine that magnetizes the part, then tests, then de-magnetizes the part. Crankshafts can be done this way but it's important that engine parts be fully and correctly de-magnetized or metal particles can cling to the part during assembly and cause engine failure.

[ProBell]

Just wanted to bring this back up to see if anyone heard of anything new. I built my front suspension around stock spindle geometry and would like to find a stong replacement spindle with the same geometry. I would also like to narrow each side by a 1/2" if posible to help with the turning radias with the slicks in a compression state. I broke a hub at the end of last year and now I am concerned about my spindles again. Thanks Randy