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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Beacon Falls, Connecticut
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    239

    Which System for budget

    I am fully aware that fuel injection is no cheap affair, or simple, or easy. But I do know it's worth it, especially since i plan on driving my car daily in the summer.
    I'm just building a mild 318 mopar, and I'm planning everything out, trying to figure out what areas of the build I'm going to cheap out on, and which ones to splurge. I plan on going much more aggressive in the future, maybe twin turbos as next summer's project?

    I have a bit of a thing for Big Stuff 3 's setup. I like all that it comes with what it can do, and what it has done for other cars. But it is at the high end of the spectrum for price

    Accel Gen VII is next down in price. I've heard it can do a lot and i'd probably be happy with it.

    The third system I came across is the Haltech E6X, which controls fuel and spark, but only has 4 injector drivers, I'm not sure how I feel about throwing fuel away, but maybe I have it wrong and that doesn't happen.

    Considering that (on the site i'm looking at ) big stuff is 2 grand, accel is 1600, and Haltech E6X is 1200. and that's not even including fuel system, or the rest of the ignition, it makes it a tough choice for me.

    There are other setups out there, but Big stuff is pretty much my ceiling so i'm not mentioning anything higher in price than that, and I'm really not interested in things like megasquirt.

    If there are setups you might think match my constraints better, or you have recommendations and/or opinions on these, please any and all help will be very much appreciated.



    Thank you in advance.
    Dan


  2. #2
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Beacon Falls, Connecticut
    Posts
    239
    anyone? anyone have experience with edelbrock performer pro-flo systems? they make a kid for SB mopars, which is a plus. comes with ignition fuel system and everything for 2 grand,. it seems like it sacrifices a lot? opinions?

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Walla Walla, WA
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    1,546
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    Have you looked at MegaSquirt?
    Mike Kelcy - '68 Camaro with some stuff done to it.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Beacon Falls, Connecticut
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    I'd rather not deal with open source software for this. thats why i siad i wasn't interested in megaquirt.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
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    Walla Walla, WA
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    Quote Originally Posted by dannyho
    I'd rather not deal with open source software for this. thats why i siad i wasn't interested in megaquirt.
    Pardon me for not reading down to the last line of the seventh paragraph of your post. I saw budget and thought "MegaSquirt."
    Mike Kelcy - '68 Camaro with some stuff done to it.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Alta Loma,SoCal
    Posts
    396
    No such thing as a budget system that will allow the upgrade to big power later...unless you rethink your interest in Megasquirt.

    You could find a factory FI type intake to fit your motor, and use the Haltech(i'm putting one on my GM Ecotec turbo'd sandrail). But for budget the Mega is it, and there is tons of tech, info and help for it online.

    EDIT : just thought of something. A few years back I remember reading about a guy who used the EEC IV setup from a late model mustang, and adapted it to a Mopar. A harness from Painless and a used computer, aqnd then have a custom chip burned for it should do thetrick. Just would need to find a throttle body to intake adapter and pick up the injector bungs and rails from Summit or Jegs.
    1965 Buick Skylark

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Kettering, OH
    Posts
    530
    I would rethink living without a wide-band. I think you'll find you need one anyway and you can adapt less expensive versions to the Accel Gen 7 and probably to the other systems. I'm running Gen 7 but don't have it completely tuned yet. It has many more tuning parameters than most systems and some folks find this handy and others find it aggravating (too much to deal with). Accel's tech help has been okay, but don't expect to get them on the phone in an instant. From what I've seen, the FAST XFI is a slightly better system for a little less and probably with better tech support. And while you're budgeting, make sure to consider your fuel system and all the necessary fittings etc... It adds up quick.

    The Edelbrock system is way too limited for the money it costs and you need to have them burn a chip everytime you make a major mod. Completely contrary to what aftermarket DFI should be all about. The other systems have their markets IMO, including Megasquirt and are priced for roughly what you get.

    Hope you find this useful.
    1967 Firebird Convert, Fuel Injected 462 ci, TKO 600
    http://1967firebird.atwebpages.com

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Orlando, FL
    Posts
    8,756
    Thanks Jody. As Jody says, we can save you some money on a FAST XFI set up. I agree with others, living without wide band, when you can have wide band so easy, would be a bad decision. I have experimented with some less sophisticated systems, thinking I did not need all the bells and whistles. You talk about trading time for dollars, you will do that if you go with a entry level system and go turbos!

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Beacon Falls, Connecticut
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    239
    well you can adapt a wide band sensor to the haltech too, as it turns out, and haltech is coming out with their own kit, so that leaves it open on a "future upgrade" level. Its not sequential, its semi sequential, but that's ok

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Boonville, Missouri
    Posts
    917
    Check out this system from Promax. I started the post about the Mega Squirt system which this system uses. I'm not well versed in fuel injection and this looked like a nice alternative for us brand X folks.

    Here's a link to the flyer.

    http://promaxcarbs.bizland.com/EFIflyer.pdf
    Tony Edler
    Illumin8s
    See Illumin8s at www.illumin8s.com

    '73 Dodge Challenger

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    45
    Hey guys.
    Regarding the edelbrock system.....
    If I'm only ever going to run a stock ZZ4 will I care about the lack of options in the pro flo?

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    583
    I've never used them so I can't say for sure, but those throttle bodies look like a nightmare as far as fuel puddling is concerned. At least TBI injects above the throttle plate, so that as the fuel goes aorund the throttle plate the turbulence and shear breaks up the droplets...these look like they'll just form a pool of fuel at the bottom of the plenum. Idle tuning could be difficult

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    45
    Qft

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Posts
    467
    I'm really enjoying the Holley 950 Pro package. I have about $2900 into it which includes:

    - Really nice V8 MPFI manifold (designed by Cutler Injection)
    - ECU that has a good selection of base maps and controls 8 hi-impedance injectors (which are available with the kit up to 50lb/hr, or aftermarket up to 83lb/hr) and most common igniton systems
    - Wideband O2 sensor and controller, interfaced to the software
    - Gorgeous 4bbl air door with TPS and Idle Air Controller that accepts Holley 4150-sized air cleaners
    - Wiring harness
    - Fuel pump, 2 fuel filters (pre-pump and post-pump) and fittings
    - Fuel rails and crossover fittings
    - Reasonably easy software interface
    - 8 Delphi injectors of your choice between 24 and 50lb/hr
    - Well written instruction book
    - A knowledgable installed base, with a Holley Engineer as the EFI moderator over on Chevytalk.com (Doug Flynn)
    - Knock sensor capabilities
    - Interface to all common ignition triggers
    - Temp based fan controls
    - 2 programmable inputs
    - 2 programmable outputs (although is consumed if you use it to control the fan), that can be triggered by MAP, RPM, TEMP, etc.
    - 2 Aux +5V inputs that can be datalogged
    - Internal Datalog

    It can handle boost, with a simple MAP sensor change, up to 30#.

    You can get the package pretty much any way you want it - without the manifold, just the ECM, ECM and wiring harness, etc. Summit has the best prices that I've found.

    Mine's performing very well on my blown 383. I'm running 8 72-pound injectors and getting around 740HP at the crank.

    Jim

    My Site: http://home.mindspring.com/~jim_fisk/id1.html
    Don't take a knife to a gunfight.

    Half-Assed = Half-Fast

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Alta Loma,SoCal
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    396
    I plan to use the Innovate Wideband setup for my Haltech e6x. Once I'm tuned I wont need it very often.
    1965 Buick Skylark

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Beacon Falls, Connecticut
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    239
    That's the basic gist I've gotten from looking around. A wideband doesn't make sense to use in closed loop. For tuning it's great, but it seems that they're just too expensive to have to replace. Let me know how your setup comes out when you're done.

  17. #17
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    Aug 2001
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    Wilton, CA. (Sacramento)
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    see below
    Last edited by camcojb; 06-20-2006 at 06:57 AM.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Aug 2001
    Location
    Wilton, CA. (Sacramento)
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    Quote Originally Posted by dannyho
    That's the basic gist I've gotten from looking around. A wideband doesn't make sense to use in closed loop. For tuning it's great, but it seems that they're just too expensive to have to replace. Let me know how your setup comes out when you're done.
    First off, many of the aftermarket systems like FAST and BS3 can be closed loop all of the time, including wot. That's a huge advantage especially in forced induction as you can set the a/f to say 12:1 at wot and as long as the fuel mapping is within the range of the computer (up to 25% usually) it can add/subtract fuel to maintain your desired a/f. If you're a bit lean the computer will add it back in automatically.

    Even on a naturally aspirated car I only tune with a wideband as a normal O2 is not accurate away from 14.7:1. Of course you could use a handheld wideband just to tune it and then run standard O2's once it's tuned.

    As far as replacing the widebands, I have only had to replace one in the years I've used them, and that was because the harness melted on the exhaust after some tie straps failed. They are pretty reliable in my opinion.

    Jody

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    583
    Yeah, the bosch wideband sensors are the OE pieces on many VWs (and others I'm sure), so they've got to be good for quite a few miles or there'd be a lot of upset VW owners.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    202
    Country Flag: United States
    If you want to learn your own tuning another option is a GM TPI ECU. It is way cheap and the software to tweak them is readily available and good. It takes a bit more work to get a good understanding, but you can buy a used ECU for $50 and a new wiring harness for $320. They have a tremendous amount of support from forum groups. There are limitations as with everything.

    Good luck

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