benefits of cloning a std camaro

[TheRoaringEagle]

i have a standard camaro. it's pretty hacked up with aftermarket stuff. i was thinking about resto-modding it with the mods being all bolt-on.
but i was wondering if a restored standard camaro would be worth as much if that standard camaro was cloned into a z/28 or rs/ss.

when someone says numbers matching does that mean every part on the car is original or does it mean the parts match what the car originally had but could be from a different car?



i originally had a 350 with a 2 speed powerglide and i know i won't be able to find the original set up in this car so would installing a 350 and powerglide tranny from another car but same year still be numbers matching?

thanks

[nancejd]

A numbers matching car is just that, all of the parts that are stamped with the vehicle vin, have that vin. A car that has all date code parts is still valuable, just not as much as a numbers matching car. I have no idea about the value as clone vs. resored though.

[rob07002]

Numbers matching car has the original vin stamped engine, trans, and rear....

IMHO: I feel (and this pertains specifically to first gen Camaros) a well done clone is worth more then an original std car. Let me explain, unless a std car has some sort of special attribute, story or pedigree most people want a Z or SS car real or not. Of course there is the Barret Jackson crowd which is on the highest end of the spectrum and out of range for most average joe's buying up all the "real" camaros out there, which leaves the std camaros affordable to most. Many musclecar buyers nowadays are boomers, and older gentlemen, and women, that have had some degree of success in their life yet yearn to have the one thing they couldn't afford when they were young. They remember seeing these cars on the streets growing up and want to have that elusive toy. Although successful, they are not super wealthy with loads of disposable income or savings so the "real" SS or Z is once again out of range. A clone however is not! I think these people want the look and smell and sound of the musclecar era and a clone will give them that at an affordable price. Alot of guys I speak to at local shows could care less if it's real. Keep in mind, I'm talking nicely done restored drivers, not a 100 point concours car.

A friend on mime restored a 67 a few year ago that he bought from the original owner, very clean car. It had/has the 250, PG 10 bolt, butternut yellow, the works. Beautifully restored to factory condition and only a 2 owner car. He then decided to sell it for a descent amount, but was amazed at the lack or response he got. Everyone that came to see the car all said, "wow, nicely done resto, top notch", but weren't interested because it was "plain jane". I bet anything that if he made that car an SS clone with any year 396, it would have went quicker tehn you could belive and for much more $$.....

Anyway, my $.02

[TheRoaringEagle]

wow, thanks guys, very helpful info. i really like z/28 camaros, but i also like the badging the most from a 69. the next would be the 68 just because of the badges. how hard would it be to clone a z/28 anyway? i just need basic info just to see if it would be an option. like besides the engine and rear and tranny, would i have to find special parts like suspension bits that aren't reproduced? i mean, would i have to find used or nos parts to clone a 67 z/28?

what if i cloned a 68 z/28 with my 67 body? would that be dumb?

[rob07002]

Depends on how far you want to go to make it a Z. Do you just want to make it appear like a Z and paint the stripes on it with some badges or do you want to faithfully recreate a 68 Z-28 down to every detail. Z's were 302 cars with front disc brakes and 12 bolts and most if not all were 4spd Muncie M21 or M22 cars. You could make your 67 a 68 Z, by changing the front grill area and swapping doors, but thats alittle overboard IMO. When and if you decide to sell, it would be tough to tell a prospective buyer its really a 67 and oh yeah, its not a real Z either.... It would too much of a ba$tard IMO. Why not make keep it a 67 and make it a Z, they did make them, and very rare. Keep in mind I don't think most would frown upon you cloning your car as long as your honest with the way its presented and especially if you decide to sell the car. Check out the two websites for more in-depth info on Camaros and what they came with from the factory.

www.camaros.org
www.camaros.net

[TheRoaringEagle]

thanks for the sites rob!

i read a little about small blocks and restoring 1st generation camaros over my spring break and realized that keeping it a 67 would be much better. you're right it is a lot more rare than a 68. but i'm not interested so much to sell the camaro, as it is my DREAM car anyways, and it has sentimental value to me, just as an 'if' plan and also pretend i have a z/28. ;)

anyways i was reading an old 'muscle car review' mag with the smokey yunick edelbrock camaro, and saw the engine. the manifold looks a little different from the stock cross ram i saw in the restoration book. the yunick has an edelbrock stamped on its front and i was wondering if you guys knew if that was an aftermarket piece? is is hard to find the cross ram manifold for the 302?

my plan now is to get a zz4 crate engine (400 is down) and put the finned aluminum valve covers, cross ram manifold, two holleys, the air cleaner, and deep groove pulleys to disguise it as a 302. would that be obvious? am i covering all bases to be deceptive?

someday i would like to get a tremec 6 speed and just stick an original style 4 speed shifter ball.

in other words i just wanna make my std. into a z/28 sleeper. any suggestions?

[nancejd]

The Edelbrock piece is an aftermarket item. They are slightly different than the factory piece, and they are also a whole lot cheaper. They also make lid for it that can use a single carb.

[TheRoaringEagle]

thanks for your help!
they don't make thme new anymore right? so the only way i could get my hands on a cross ram intake is to find it used? i've seen the offenhauser (sp) and did see the edelbrocks ones. do you know off the top how much they would range from?

[rob07002]

This is a very expensive endeavor. Here are some links to help you.


Some for sale:
http://www.camaros.net/classifieds/s...1&cat=8&page=1

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1969-...QQcmdZViewItem

Some info on the history of the crossram in Trans Am racing:
http://www.camaros.org/crossram.shtml

More info and for sale:
http://www.racingparts.biz/intake.htm


Unless your trying to recreate a Trans Am racer or a Penske replica, I don't think its reaaly worth the effort or money. Besides the fact that these setups will most likely take away any if not all drivability the cars has, not to mention a real PITA to tune. Keep in mind these setups were designed and run on full blown race cars running in the higher RPM band usually at wot. Most street tunnel rams and xrams I've seen on street cars never ran good and always loaded the plugs....

[nancejd]

I've seen the Edelbrock and Offenhauser units go on ebay for between $300 and $500.

[TheRoaringEagle]

thanks guys, i think i'll be happy with a traditional single carb intake. the cross ram intake looks so trick though.

[indyjps]

i think a Z/28 "tribute" car would be the best bet. what i mean by tribute is the car looks like a z but is not trying to be represented as one. im thinking a 377 small block, to rev like a 302 and have more balls, nice lumpy idle, a tko 5 speed with a hurst shifter thru the console, moser 12 bolt, find an aftermarket seat that closely resembles stock and have it covered in stock looking pattern, most importantly make the engine compartment look like a restored Z, use an aftermarket intake but grind off all names etc, big holley, correct air cleaner, day 2 looking headers, and painted up correctly.

[TheRoaringEagle]

yeah that was exactly what i was thinking too! except i'm most likely going to have a 350 ZZ4 sb and later down the rode i would like a 6 speed. i have a moser 12 and wanna get new camaro leather seats. what are day 2 headers? are those the headers they shipped in the trunk?

[rolltide]

faced with the same kind of decision, I opted for the LT1/T56 combo. I'll probably drive it forever rather than sell it, but I don't think I'll be compromising the value compared to the stock std setup.

[CRUSTY69]

i was going to build a z28 clone...but that would look pretty dumb with a 454 in it.....i will just do a plane jane body, front & rear spoilers..big block, 5 speed, 12 bolt, disc brakes...basically an ss, without badges..and i can still go with the trim tag colors....711 / 55

[Chad-1stGen]

my plan now is to get a zz4 crate engine (400 is down) and put the finned aluminum valve covers, cross ram manifold, two holleys, the air cleaner, and deep groove pulleys to disguise it as a 302. would that be obvious? am i covering all bases to be deceptive?

ZZ4 crate motors have the vortec style cylinder heads. As such the finned aluminum valve covers and corss ram manifold are not going to bolt up.