seat belt safety

[69ratfed]

I am concerned about only having a lap belt in my 69. I want a 4 or 5 point harness. Is there a way to put a bar behind the front seat just for the shoulder harness. I have seen the harness bar for the newer Camaros. Does anyone make something like that for first gen's? I do not want to put a full cage in.
Thanks for any input and pictures would be of great help.

[GregD]

Take a look at the different mounting options for the Rallye 3 Harness.
http://www.schrothracing.com/docs/R...nstructions.pdf

[Midnight68]

I am looking into doing the same thing with a harness bar behind the seat, I also wanted to make it removeable. I found these ends http://img214.imageshack.us/my.php?image=m589dg.jpg I was thinking that the flat part could be welded to each side just below the rear quarter window. My only concern was about if that area is strong enough. It would then give a mounting point for the shoulder harnesses without having to put a cage in.

[ss dave]

I saw a Mustang with Schroth seat belts and it looked like a good set-up. No welding no body changes. The harness attached to the existing rear seat belt hold down bolts, exited the same as the rears, came up over the front seat to attach to the lap belt. The shoulder belts had a quick connector that made for ease of removal if you wanted just the laps.

[vanzuuk1]

I did some asking around about this, I was going to do the same thing but:

Mounting the belts anywhere but on a bar behind your shoulders is a problem.

1) too much belt length, causing the belts to stretch in a crash.

2) mounting on the floor results in too steep an angle, as your body moves forward in a crash, the belts force your body downward and you get spinal injurys.

3)Mounted the belts in a non reinforced area of sheetmetal can result in them tearing out in a crash.

Ideally the belts should be wrapped around a four point rollbar with a crossbar behind your shoulders, the whole thing should be welded to the floor with plates surrounding the attachment points.

If you search there is a much more detailed description, or look at a set of guidelines on a scca or other organization website.

[gsxrken]

Just a slightly off-point note of caution: Any such cross bar is a deadly threat to a rear-seat passenger (not to mention how hard it would be to get back there without a removable one).
I've read that a roll bar of any kind can be very harmful to a non-helmet wearing occupant, and that no foam made can cushion the bars sufficiently to protect the head. Makes sense to me. I abandoned the roll bar b/c I know my kids will be in the car at times, and the likelihood of an accident on the road is unfortunately far higher than the pros of having a roll bar for the limited amount of times the car sees the track. I've thought hard about this (roll bar and harnesses), and I landed on not trying to make my car something it is not.
PS- Dirk, I think I'd rather have a seat belt that stretches a bit more than desired or takes some force before it tears the sheet metal mounting point away. Are you saying these are NOTbetter than the lap belt, or just that they are not comparable to the track-approved cage and harness?

[vanzuuk1]

Ken You are absolutetly right about the back seat , once you put any bars back there its a no-fly zone. In my opinion, anyway. You are also correct that the head and rollbar can not meet.
As far as any of this being better than the stock belts you are probably right, but after a lot of thought (and after our friend had his accident and was saved by his harness and rollbar) I decided to get good seats, belts and a fourpoint and mount everything properly.

I am not an expert on this and I dont want to leave out any info, there are websites and threads on this site that cover everything in detail, even the angle and method of mounting the seat belt anchor is crucial.

Check the "breaks my heart thread" for starters.

[vanzuuk1]

The one thing that I still want to look into is the crossbar welded behind the seats, I would be curious if it could be mounted above the rear window cranks. That area is not strong enough as far as I know, maybe it could be braced? It would still meaning ditching the back seat. This was my original plan but a few people who deal with this topic on a regular basis didnt think it was a good idea.

I read that your body can momentarally exert three thousand pounds during a crash so you have to imagine that when you look at mounting the bar to sheetmetal.

Crash science was pretty crude when these cars were built.

[69ratfed]

I was at a car show last month and I saw a Ford Galaxy 500. It had a loop behind each front seat. The loop came from under the front seat and went up to about the top of seat. Then curved back down to the floor and under the seat. His shoulder harness mounted to the top of the loop behind seat. It looked like it was put in and rienforced some how under the front seat. It looked like a good set-up and he had harnesses on back seat as well. I was thinking about doing the same thing. This way I can still use the back seat and feel safer driving my car. Plus with the 4 point harnesses in back I will not have to worry about anyone hitting the harness bar (loop). Whats your opinion?

[sinned]

Front shoulder harness cannot be properly installed ANYWHERE except on a roll bar cross tube to be located no more than 6" below the drivers shoulders. Anything will cause further in the case of an accident. I can tell you first hand that improper harness mounts will cause back trauma.

[69ratfed]

Denny,

I know what you mean, I don't want a spinal injury. But on the other hand I do not want my face peeled off by the steering wheel either. I am thinking of along the same lines as a cross bar except for the main hoop. As stated above, make two loops that would go to top of seats and be connected by a cross bar between the two. Attatch the belts to the loops at shoulder height. Something along the lines of a roll bar for a Cobra or Miata.

[ilovefirstgens]

Denny,

I know what you mean, I don't want a spinal injury. But on the other hand I do not want my face peeled off by the steering wheel either. I am thinking of along the same lines as a cross bar except for the main hoop. As stated above, make two loops that would go to top of seats and be connected by a cross bar between the two. Attatch the belts to the loops at shoulder height. Something along the lines of a roll bar for a Cobra or Miata.

So why not just a 4 point like the dse, you are looking at a lot of fabbing and making the rear seats useless (the bars would be permanently put just where a persons face would be in an accident) I would say go with a 4 point with removeable cross bar. when you want passengers pop it out and put it in the trunk and use the lap belts, then when theres no back seat passengers put it back in and be fine.

Also how are you guys saying that you would crack your skull open on the main hoop since its behind and above your head, and anyone with a roll bar and harnesses is smart enough to have headrests already.

[vanzuuk1]

Any thing I described assumes no one in the backseat.(I have no back seat)

A headrest will not keep your head off the rollbar, but it will help if you get rearended. In a crash your head will go places you cannot believe, your body stretches and twists in ways that seem impossible.

I agree with you, my plan is to use the dse bar, weld the crossbar in, get better seats, four points mounted securely, and close the back seat area to the public, the seat itself is gone now.

[vanzuuk1]

PS If we knew when and how we were going to crash this would be easy, but you have to prepare for the unexpected. It would be easy to set the car up for one type of crash but a rear end crash is different than a rollover and there are an infinite number of ways an accident can unfold, side impacts and angles etc.

Again, I am just passing along what I have read on a few different sites, and confirmed by a few race rulebooks and tech inspecters.

In the end we will make what compromises we are comfortable with (I dont wear a full face helmet on the street) but I URGE you to read further on this website, especially the "breaks my heart" thread, and search further back on belts, bars, and safety.

I have worn a full face helmet on my gsxr and my mt. bike for years, I have only needed them a few times but when I needed them I NEEDED them.

[Damn True]

So why not just a 4 point like the dse, you are looking at a lot of fabbing and making the rear seats useless (the bars would be permanently put just where a persons face would be in an accident) I would say go with a 4 point with removeable cross bar. when you want passengers pop it out and put it in the trunk and use the lap belts, then when theres no back seat passengers put it back in and be fine.

Also how are you guys saying that you would crack your skull open on the main hoop since its behind and above your head, and anyone with a roll bar and harnesses is smart enough to have headrests already.

That's what you'd think. Sadly there are a few who "don't like the look of a seatback sticking up above the door sill".

Any rollbar, with or without a crossbar, presents a significant enough risk to rear seat passengers to make the use of the backseat simply foolish.

BTW: https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/sh...2&page=1&pp=20

[69ratfed]

So why not just a 4 point like the dse, you are looking at a lot of fabbing and making the rear seats useless (the bars would be permanently put just where a persons face would be in an accident) I would say go with a 4 point with removeable cross bar. when you want passengers pop it out and put it in the trunk and use the lap belts, then when theres no back seat passengers put it back in and be fine.

Also how are you guys saying that you would crack your skull open on the main hoop since its behind and above your head, and anyone with a roll bar and harnesses is smart enough to have headrests already.

If you were to put in a cross bar that looks like the Cobra roll bar with the exception of the down bars then you could attatch the shoulder belts to the side of the loops at shoulder height. As far as mounting the bar, you could mount it near the top of back panel and reinforce it. Also, for the rear passengers, they can have 4 point harnesses as well with a little fab work for mounting. This is only a question to see if anyone has done this sort of thing or if it can be done. My car is not a drag car and I am not worried about weight but I would like to feel a little safer when I drive it.

[RaceMan]

I've also thought alot about this and have decided if you've got a back seat and a bar in you've got to have good seat belts in the back . I've got a 5 and 7 year old and when my car gets done ( hopfully before the kids move out of the house) I'll make them wear a 5 point harness also or anyone who sits back there

[69ratfed]

I've also thought alot about this and have decided if you've got a back seat and a bar in you've got to have good seat belts in the back . I've got a 5 and 7 year old and when my car gets done ( hopfully before the kids move out of the house) I'll make them wear a 5 point harness also or anyone who sits back there

My point exactly. Myself included in that.

[BonzoHansen]

I've also thought alot about this and have decided if you've got a back seat and a bar in you've got to have good seat belts in the back . I've got a 5 and 7 year old and when my car gets done ( hopfully before the kids move out of the house) I'll make them wear a 5 point harness also or anyone who sits back there

There can be no way their heads hit that bar. Belts stretch, that is their job. But I do not know how far.

[Damn True]

If you were to put in a cross bar that looks like the Cobra roll bar with the exception of the down bars then you could attatch the shoulder belts to the side of the loops at shoulder height. As far as mounting the bar, you could mount it near the top of back panel and reinforce it. Also, for the rear passengers, they can have 4 point harnesses as well with a little fab work for mounting. This is only a question to see if anyone has done this sort of thing or if it can be done. My car is not a drag car and I am not worried about weight but I would like to feel a little safer when I drive it.

Are you suggesting you could attach the belts to the main hoop?

If not, please explain more clearly, if that is what you are suggesting, you need to step away from the bong.

There are zero grey areas in terms of proper attachment of belts and installation of cages and roll bars. There is a right way, and the rest are simply wrong.