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    1. #1
      Join Date
      Jul 2002
      Location
      Mesquite, TX
      Posts
      4,948
      Country Flag: United States

      Carnage. (was "What can I swap in?")

      I broke my engine today. It's never even left the garage.

      Trying to figure out why it's idling at 2500 rpm (assuming a bad vacuum leak), over a period of about ten seconds it went from 2500 rpm to running real rough and shaking the car to a bang sound and all the oil falling out of the bottom.

      I'm expecting that something physically broke (hence the bang) and that I'll need to swap motors but closed up shop and went in after putting a pan to catch the oil.

      The car has the complete wiring harness - and computer - from a 2000 TA. What can I replace this LS1 with? I know the easy ones - the iron truck 5.3s and 6.0s, and of course other LS1/LS6s... but what about the others/newer LSs, will any work with the TA's computer? I've got EFILive so can adjust settings if needed.



      Where's a good bang-for-the-buck?


    2. #2
      Join Date
      Dec 2008
      Location
      Detroit
      Posts
      2,544
      Country Flag: United States
      LS1 is going to be a Gen3 24x crank reluctor motor and the newer Gen 4 motors are 58x. Also the cam sensor on this is in the valley cover where the new motors is on the timing cover. Just what I can think of offhand.
      Big dreams, small pockets....

      Chris--
      '72 Cutlass S LSA/T56 Magnum
      Bowler Performance, Rushforth Wheels, ATS, Holley EFI, KORE3, Ridetech

      Project Motor City Madness

    3. #3
      Join Date
      Apr 2015
      Posts
      70
      Country Flag: United States
      Knock sensors are also different between gen 3 and 4. I would think most any gen 3 short block would be an easy swap in this case.

      One thing I’d be curious of though is what caused an idling engine to grenade? If something is off with the ECU tune (maybe timing is way off…?) it could cause the same issue with the next engine.

    4. #4
      Join Date
      Nov 2006
      Location
      Mountain Springs, Texas
      Posts
      4,171
      Country Flag: United States
      I would try to find another LS1 and maybe drop in an LS6 cam to keep things simple. I agree, need to understand the cause of the failure. Who did the tune?

      Don
      1969 Camaro - LSA 6L90E AME sub/IRS
      1957 Buick Estate Wagon
      1959 El Camino - Ironworks frame
      1956 Cameo - full C5 suspension/drivetrain
      1959 Apache Fleetside

    5. #5
      Join Date
      Aug 2007
      Posts
      535
      Sorry about your engine problems.
      My .02 either get a 24 tooth reluctor 6.0 from the salvage yard and build it or buy a rebuilt 6.0 short block reusing reusing all your LS1 parts.
      Depending what happen inside your current engine reuse the cam but with 6.0 you could but in a bit bigger cam.
      Or if you want to replace your intake and injectors maybe LS3 heads?

    6. #6
      Join Date
      Jul 2002
      Location
      Mesquite, TX
      Posts
      4,948
      Country Flag: United States
      Quote Originally Posted by dhutton View Post
      I agree, need to understand the cause of the failure. Who did the tune?
      There wasn't really a tune on it - I'd flashed a stock GM tune (specifically, the "2000 Chevrolet Camaro Coupe Manual LS1 5.7 Litre (PCM 09381344)" I found on the net) to the PCM as what was in it was just wrong (previous owner swore it wasn't sprayed or blown but I found a nitrous nozzle stuck in the serpentine belt when I tore it down and I think the injector numbers were set up for that). I'd had the block machined and new pistons/rings/bearings and the like so wasn't too worried about What Had Come Before.

      Don't know cause of the failure yet - need to pull the engine out to do a proper post-mortem - but whatever came apart did it hard enough to break the cast oil pan:

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      Quote Originally Posted by 79 Camaro View Post
      My .02 either get a 24 tooth reluctor 6.0 from the salvage yard
      Yeah, looks like that may be the correct route. There's a 6.0 from a 2006 Escalade at my local yard that looks to be calling my name.

      Quote Originally Posted by 79 Camaro View Post
      Depending what happen inside your current engine reuse the cam but with 6.0 you could but in a bit bigger cam.
      Current cam is a Thunder Racing TR224 - hopefully it survived? If not then yeah - something a little larger.

      Quote Originally Posted by 79 Camaro View Post
      Or if you want to replace your intake and injectors maybe LS3 heads?
      Oh, now you've got my attention. Not that I've got the kind of liquid-cooled wallet that allows for fancy stuff.

    7. #7
      Join Date
      Aug 2007
      Posts
      535
      I love to spend other peoples money!
      Keep in mind that if you go the LS3/L92 head route your current intake, injectors, throttle body along with your 243? heads are still very popular for resale.
      Good luck with your engine project.

    8. #8
      Join Date
      Jan 2000
      Location
      Thousand Oaks California
      Posts
      9,899
      Country Flag: United States
      Oh no!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!

      So sorry to hear. Wow! That sucks!!!!
      Larry Callahan
      Founder/Administrator of Pro-Touring.com, G-Machines.com and HostMyJunk.com
      To advertise on Pro-Touring.com click here

    9. #9
      Join Date
      Jul 2002
      Location
      Mesquite, TX
      Posts
      4,948
      Country Flag: United States
      If'n you're of a mind to play a fun game of Root Cause Analysis - I pulled the heads and found this today in the #5 cylinder:

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      The cylinder wall is definitely ruined. The connecting rod is not attached to the crank anymore, but the crank surface seems undamaged from what I can see/feel from here. I expect that I'll be able to completely pull the engine this weekend and will be able to get a better idea of what's in there.

      I'd just put the flourescent dye in a couple of days before this so when I checked the heads and found the dye evenly distributed I felt pretty good about the oiling system working. The other cylinders are okay, except I found a lot of aluminum shavings on top of the #8 piston, but no visible damage in there to explain them.

      Oh - and the head is ruined too, bits of piston appear to have bounced off it a few times.

    10. #10
      Join Date
      Apr 2015
      Posts
      70
      Country Flag: United States
      Wow man that’s some carnage all right. What’s the history on the engine? Was this a fresh rebuild. Swap in as-is?

    11. #11
      Join Date
      Jul 2002
      Location
      Mesquite, TX
      Posts
      4,948
      Country Flag: United States
      Fresh rebuild, though it might be telling that the machine shop closed up business not long after finishing the block work. Heads were used.

      Possibly relevant that the engine had been sitting for a decade between the build and the first fire - but I did pull the heads off and verify that the bores weren't rusty.

    12. #12
      Join Date
      Sep 2009
      Posts
      2,376
      Country Flag: United States
      Very sorry to hear about your engine... If you have access to an LQ9 from the Escalade, I'd pick that up along with a set of 799/243 heads and just run it.


      1968 Camaro 6.2 w/ LSA, TR6060-Magnum hybrid, Z51 brakes, 12 bolt, Speedtech, Hotchkis, DSE...SOLD
      1976 T/A LS1, 6 Speed, C5 front brakes, and etc. SOLD

    13. #13
      Join Date
      Jul 2002
      Location
      Mesquite, TX
      Posts
      4,948
      Country Flag: United States
      My LQ9 gets delivered tomorrow evening, and the box of parts from the big-box store trickles in Wednesday and Thursday.

      Today I was able to pull the engine and get it on the stand to look at the damages.

      The pan looks better than it is:

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      It's still cracked in about eight places so needs replaced.

      When I was getting ready to create my parts order a thought struck me that the windage tray was probably ruined.

      Oh yeah.

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      And here's what was presented once I took the tray off:
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      Bearings look okay, if you ignore that they're flat and not attached to anything:
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      Wrist pin looks good:
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      Rod is slightly bent (no picture).

      Crank is likely not salvageable:
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      One of the rod bolts bent and broke, and the other is loose - not sure if that indicates that the one came loose and the other bent, or if something broke and the everything stems from that:
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      The sleeve is also ruined, I assume by broken rod bits flying around in there.
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      The head is also ruined, I expect (ignore the splashes of coolant on the top cylinder, that's just from where the head was when the radiator came out) -
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      The cam has a couple of nicks on the very edge of a couple of lobes. My assumption is that I can take a fine file to those since that's not where the rollers will ride.

      So - any guesses as to root cause here (was this my fault)?

    14. #14
      Join Date
      Dec 2013
      Posts
      124
      Country Flag: United States
      Post some pics of the cam, hard to tell without seeing. Do NOT reuse the lifters, expect those to have a ton of debris in them. The LQ9 is bigger/better, if that makes you feel better. My $$$ is on the shop not tightening the rod bolts correctly. Even if the crank looks good, don't use it. It's probably bent, but if the journals are ok, have it checked to verify if not too expensive. A spare crank is not a bad thing. Be sure to look at the cam bearings of the LQ9 real good before you send it. Slap a 10295 pump with the COPO spring in it and will give you a valve spring/head gasket recommendation depending on the rest of the combo. FYI, you are better off selling that TR224 cam, it's not great. Get a BTR stage 2 or some of the Summit cams(Comp) are excellent for the $$$. If you need a Camaro pan/tray, I might have one to sell.

    15. #15
      Join Date
      Jul 2002
      Location
      Mesquite, TX
      Posts
      4,948
      Country Flag: United States
      Good call on the lifters.

      The LQ9 is a complete pullout - so reusing lifters or crank is not necessarily needed. Journals on the old crank are definitely gouged. The Holley swap pan and a windage tray is part of the parts order so I'm definitely good there.

      I've got a set of the Comp Cams 918 springs new in a box on a shelf that can go in. I assume they're not the hot stuff these days either - they've been on that shelf for better than a decade.

      How bad is the TR224? I can't find the cam card and my notes on what it is don't line up with what Archive.org shows from the TR site (my notes say it's 224/224 on a 116 LSA but it doesn't look like they made one on 116)

    16. #16
      Join Date
      Dec 2013
      Posts
      124
      Country Flag: United States
      Ebay the cam, it's better $$$ to sell that and recoup some and buy better. It's not cheap playing w/ LS's, may as well do it right the first time. Give me specs on the car/drivetrain/power/driving style and I can ballpark a cam for you. The OLD Comp springs are way BETTER than the new ones. Comp anything short of the cams themselves has totally gone to ****. Either way, same difference, build it once. Might sell the springs too, don't let that limit you. Give me more info and can narrow down the focus more.

    17. #17
      Join Date
      Jul 2002
      Location
      Mesquite, TX
      Posts
      4,948
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      Quote Originally Posted by DualQuadDave View Post
      Give me specs on the car/drivetrain/power/driving style and I can ballpark a cam for you.
      69 El Camino, this LQ9 with a T56, 4.10 gears.

      LS6 intake, whatever cam, headers - not too much else fancy for power. Let's label the driving style as "aggressive street".

    18. #18
      Join Date
      Dec 2013
      Posts
      124
      Country Flag: United States
      For that combo and driving style(like me, lol) I would go with a Summit SUM-8710R1. A BTR Stage 2 Cathedral is touch smaller, little better drive-ability and still great power, but the Summit cam is a real good all around grind. They both love compression, I would get a set of 243/799's and go with a .040 gasket to pump it up some. .660 spring kit will be fine for either. If you are going to keep the 317 heads, have them cut .020 and go with the .040 gasket to get as much compression as you can. I would advance the cam 2 degrees, also, if you keep the 317 heads.

      Also, spend the $$$ and put an alum flywheel on it. Best $$$ you'll spend. Lightweight clutch is worth it too, but they get expensive real quick.

    19. #19
      Join Date
      Jul 2002
      Location
      Mesquite, TX
      Posts
      4,948
      Country Flag: United States
      I put a leakdown tester on the engine today and it definitely needs a valve job. Oil pan was dirty but not sparkly, plugs weren't fouled but looked to have been in there a while.

      I do have a set of 853 heads (google says 68cc chamber as opposed to the 72cc 317s). Would it be better to clean up the 853s and valve job them instead of having the 317s milled?

    20. #20
      Join Date
      Dec 2013
      Posts
      124
      Country Flag: United States
      Don't spend a dollar on the 853's. Get the $100-200 for them on offerup and let them go. Buy any set of 243/799's and build from there. Yes it's more $$, but the heads make the motor. Honestly, since you need to buy heads, maybe to go LS3 square port and cut the bull****. Just thinking out loud. i am going LS3 on all my 6.0+ builds. The entire aftermarket is pivoting toward this. Have a lot of personal, inside info on this. Lots of behind the scenes stuff happening in our hobby that is not good for us. If you can consolidate now, better $$$ going forward.

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