'69 Camaro Road Racer Need Help Steering & Front Suspension Components!

[JayRowlands]

Hello, Long time lurker first time poster...(I think..It's been so many years). I struggle getting to the point so I'll try cliff note version:

CAR: Stripped/Gutted 69 Camaro dedicated track car build 90% "legal" for vintage road racing.

HELP: ???
Front suspension: I have SPC Upper Adjustable CA's, SPC Lower CA's, I believe I will order Howe Xtra tall upper BJ's, I'm purchasing Chassiworks Tall Billet Spindles in "stock height", Chassisworks Billet Z/28 "quick ratio" steering arms, Proforged 1-1/8" center drag link...I want to buy Howe Quick Bump Tie Rod Ends but I do not know if I should use with Chassisworks inner & outer tie rod bumpsteer kit or a Howe tie rod assembly (what length sleeve?). Or? I also need to figure out the correct size Idler Arm to get, Pitman Arm and MANUAL steering box- I want the steering box to be the/ or like the 16-18:1 1969 over the counter production "quick ratio" Z/28 box.

I'm trying to source a new pair of Moog 6041 Coil springs to cut for my desired length and I need to decide what shocks (front and rear) would best option.?? Side note- for my rear suspension I have 9" ford, Global West Cat 5 bushing/bearing for leaf spring kit with some Eaton leafs being made & a Fays2 watts link. Car is running on four 15x8 minilite wheels with Goodyear 6.00 (front) and 7.00 (rear) sticky rubber.

A couple years ago Mark Savitske helped me out a lot over the phone to try and help my brain understand all this steering/ handling/ suspension/ geometry...many years reading David Pozzi's posts and many, many more of you guys who brains I can hardly keep up with when it comes to this suspension/steering stuff. If any of you with the knowledge and experience could help me sort this out I would *GREATLY* appreciate your time!!!
Thank you-
Jay Rowlands

[Steve68]

Cool project! Sounds like you have a bunch of good parts there, I have a set of unused Gullstrand front coils you might be interested, I dot remember the rates on them,

Post some pics!

[dhutton]

Tall spindles and tall balljoints sounds like maybe too much. Maybe just one or the other.

Marks book is a pretty good reference.

Don

[JayRowlands]

Steve68- Thanks! I may very well be interested in your Guldstrand springs. Are they 1st gen Camaro? Just double checking because I understand 1st gens are 5" OD and 2nd gens are 5.5"OD. I'm certain I can search around the interweb here and find out the rate. I'm looking for 625lb rate.

Don-Thanks also. It was Mark who told me about the tall spindles and tall bj's- but at the time I was discussing two different routes/ sets of options and I was writing notes fast to keep up with him...hence this post. I've got Mark's book here I refer to alot. I also know there is wealth of experience and knowledge here at PT that supersedes mine. I will research more on the tall spindle/ tall bj issue- and please if anyone else has information to offer it is much appreciated!
Thanks-
Jay

[marolf101x]

First, are there specific rules regarding the suspension to vintage road racing?
If so, we can work around those.

If there are no rules regarding suspension geometry we can come up with a much better solution than factory.

Regarding geometry. . .simply put, most 60's GM vehicles need more caster, need more camber gain under compression, and less bumpsteer.
You can measure all these and make your own changes, or we can make suggestions.

Shocks play a HUGE roll in handling. Shock technology has gone crazy since the mid 90's (let alone the 60's), so there's a lot that can be gained there.

[Steve68]

Steve68- Thanks! I may very well be interested in your Guldstrand springs. Are they 1st gen Camaro? Just double checking because I understand 1st gens are 5" OD and 2nd gens are 5.5"OD. I'm certain I can search around the interweb here and find out the rate. I'm looking for 625lb rate.

Don-Thanks also. It was Mark who told me about the tall spindles and tall bj's- but at the time I was discussing two different routes/ sets of options and I was writing notes fast to keep up with him...hence this post. I've got Mark's book here I refer to alot. I also know there is wealth of experience and knowledge here at PT that supersedes mine. I will research more on the tall spindle/ tall bj issue- and please if anyone else has information to offer it is much appreciated!
Thanks-
Jay

I will measure and look back at info to see where I got them, and if I can find some info,

[JayRowlands]

Thanks Steve, if you could measure od and find that add'l info that would be fantastic. Mr. David Pozzi does say this on his coil spring page: "Moog/Guldstrand spring cut to 13.5" free length for autocross with race tires, around 650 - 700 lbs, depending on how much you cut off."
So I'm wondering if the Guldstrand spring and 6041 Moog I'm looking for are a very close match.


Mr. marolf101x

Yes, there are there specific rules regarding the suspension to vintage road racing. Essentially we are required to run and use the technology of the Trans-Am era/ SCCA rulebook circa 1969. (ie: stock CA's, guldstrand mod ok, shocks not coilovers, leaf spring suspension, 4 speed etc.) Yes I am using SPC upper and lower CA's but I will make my case to tech that I'm doing it for safety and not wanting to run at speed with 50 year old control arms. All the guys in vintage TA do run stock CA's, but the car I have doesn't have "history" and I'm taking some leeway but trying to stay relatively within the "as they ran" back in the day with a few exceptions ;-)
Hence I am also trying to sort out my braking system going 4 wheel discs inside a 15x8 minilite wheel.




> most 60's GM vehicles need more caster, need more camber gain under compression, and less bumpsteer.
Thank you.

>You can measure all these and make your own changes, or we can make suggestions.
It may end up being both!!!


>Shocks play a HUGE roll in handling. Shock technology has gone crazy since the mid 90's (let alone the 60's), so there's a lot that can be gained there.
Thank you. Yes I have been informed shocks tie the car down and are the brains of the whole suspension. I am looking forward to hearing input on shocks as well. Mark Savitske suggested twin tube double adjustable like Vari-shock's for my application.

[btmatt]

Mark helped me with my gen 1 front years ago. We ended up with SPC uppers and lowers, AFX tall spindles, DSE 2" drop 550lb springs, Chassisworks double adjustable shocks, and I believe hellwig hollow sway bar.

We had Unisteer rack already on the car and combo works really well without beating the hell out of you on the street

[Steve68]

Jay, had this info last night and forgot to post it,

OD 5"

Length- from the flat pigtail to the other pigtail is 15"

Right what you looking for,

[jimco84x]

Way Back, Guldstrand(and others) relocated the upper arms to comply with the stock arms rule. It's as simple as drilling 4 new holes This mod gained caster and camber curve under compression. I may still have the templates somewhere. There may be rules that don't allow relocating suspension mounting point though.

[68Formula]

Yes, there are there specific rules regarding the suspension to vintage road racing. Essentially we are required to run and use the technology of the Trans-Am era/ SCCA rulebook circa 1969. (ie: stock CA's, guldstrand mod ok, shocks not coilovers, leaf spring suspension, 4 speed etc.) Yes I am using SPC upper and lower CA's but I will make my case to tech that I'm doing it for safety and not wanting to run at speed with 50 year old control arms. All the guys in vintage TA do run stock CA's, but the car I have doesn't have "history" and I'm taking some leeway but trying to stay relatively within the "as they ran" back in the day with a few exceptions ;-)
Hence I am also trying to sort out my braking system going 4 wheel discs inside a 15x8 minilite wheel.

Sounds like with these rules, the billet spindles and steering arms aren't going to fly (and allowing tubular arms are questionable). If that won't pass, do the G-mod with tall upper balljoints. You can also box in the factory control arms to reinforce them, as that was typical back in the day.

[JayRowlands]

Mark helped me with my gen 1 front years ago. We ended up with SPC uppers and lowers, AFX tall spindles, DSE 2" drop 550lb springs, Chassisworks double adjustable shocks, and I believe hellwig hollow sway bar.

We had Unisteer rack already on the car and combo works really well without beating the hell out of you on the street

Thanks for this- Yes pretty much what Mark had run by me for an option. Except I just sold my AFX tall spindles because I'm running the 15x8 minilites and can't fit the C5 brake setups in that 15" wheel. The other option he suggested was using the Chassisworks tall spindle in stock location so I could run a factory style disc with my 15" wheels.

[JayRowlands]

Jay, had this info last night and forgot to post it,

OD 5"

Length- from the flat pigtail to the other pigtail is 15"

Right what you looking for,

Steve, awesome man thanks. These are for sure the Guldstrand springs?? I feel like an imbecile- how do I PM you on here? This is my first time actually doing something on any forum- I know, this day and age and I don't know how to do this...

[JayRowlands]

jimco84x- Thanks, yes all my friends running 1st gens in the vintage race groups have done the G-mod. The scca rulebook may have said you can't do it, but since it was so common I think the clubs accepted it and most the guys have done it. We (my fabricator friend and I) were going to cut the mounting ears off, lower and scoot them back like Penske did but now that I'm using the adjustable SPC uppers we are not going to do the G-mod. If I was going to stick hardcore to using stock CA's, G-mod would be a for sure thing.

68Formula- Thank you too, yes I had plans to box the stock lowers, until I changed plans mentioned above. We're boxing in parts of the subframe right now as well as welding all factory seams, cleaning up the whole subframe and strengthening it. I've got some really good ways of concealing the billet spindles/steering arms and I'm not worried about it. There's other guys in the club braking rules way more obvious. Kind of why I decided to just go ahead with the SPC upper and lower arms too. If they want to complain about my control arms then I'll say why don't you tell those 5 guys over there running 800HP nascar engines in their "vintage A-Sedan Camaro's" to put a 302 back in their car ;-)

[Steve68]

Steve, awesome man thanks. These are for sure the Guldstrand springs?? I feel like an imbecile- how do I PM you on here? This is my first time actually doing something on any forum- I know, this day and age and I don't know how to do this...

PM is right next to to your name Notifications, I'll send you one, you'll see next to your name in the top right hand corner, there will be a "1" telling you have a message,

[David Pozzi]

Those 6041 coils will have to be cut to fit. Cut the non-flattened end. They can be cut with a torch but do not allow the rest of the spring to heat up. Do not allow any weld spatter to hit the coils, it can cause the coil to snap in use. I like to put the cut end down, contacting the lower A arm because it's thicker. Grind a little bevel on the cut end to keep it from digging into the A arm.
Mine came out at 13.5" but I was not using a vintage tire, I ran lower profile used Can-Am & Corvette front tires. The last set came off of Al Holbert's IMSA Monza when it ran at Laguna Seca.

[JayRowlands]

Those 6041 coils will have to be cut to fit. Cut the non-flattened end. They can be cut with a torch but do not allow the rest of the spring to heat up. Do not allow any weld spatter to hit the coils, it can cause the coil to snap in use. I like to put the cut end down, contacting the lower A arm because it's thicker. Grind a little bevel on the cut end to keep it from digging into the A arm.
Mine came out at 13.5" but I was not using a vintage tire, I ran lower profile used Can-Am & Corvette front tires. The last set came off of Al Holbert's IMSA Monza when it ran at Laguna Seca.

Thanks David! I understand. I'll use a cutting wheel not a torch. Thank you very much for the tips, instructions and input! I'll take my time, cutting, installing, taking out, cutting again as necessary...I've already gone the impatient route in the past with another car and cut too much too soon lol. Have you talked with Tony Huntimer recently? I haven't talked with him for a while- I should rattle his cage. Thanks again Dave- always admire and appreciate your experience and willingness to share.

[Hotwire]

This may help you with getting your first cut underway:

https://www.globalwest.net/video-tri...obal-west.html

Good luck w/ the car, sounds like you're going to have fun!

[JayRowlands]

Thanks Hotwire!! I've cut many a coil spring over the years. The vids from GW are great- always a good refresher! Thanks man! For some reason this build isn't going as fast as ones I did as a guy in his 20's with no kids lol. Thanks again- keep the rubber side down!

This may help you with getting your first cut underway:

https://www.globalwest.net/video-tri...obal-west.html

Good luck w/ the car, sounds like you're going to have fun!

[Steve68]

Thanks Hotwire!! I've cut many a coil spring over the years. The vids from GW are great- always a good refresher! Thanks man! For some reason this build isn't going as fast as ones I did as a guy in his 20's with no kids lol. Thanks again- keep the rubber side down!

Thats cause the spring guy sucks! lol