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    1. #1
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      Breaks my heart (Consider safety when building speed into your car)


      It breaks my heart to read some of the threads in this section. You know..The ones where someone asks about adding safety equipment but complains about inconvenience or appearance. Stock or unsupportive seats? Removable harness bars? Go look at the difference between the number of suspension parts threads and the number of brake system threads. Whats up, Bob?

      This is pro-touring.com. Reality check: We're all building 3000lb to 3500lb missiles. Top Speed Potential: 140mph? 160mph? More? Got Turbos? Maybe I've gone overboard with my car, but it sure seems like safety is an afterthought on most pro-touring cars. When I see a bad-ass 150mph fat tired P-T car with stock seats, stock belts and no roll bar, I walk away shaking my head. How about racing harnesses that aren't mounted to anything--but look cool. Ian Zerling's Camaro has racing harneses that are mounted (sewn) to the seat upholstery.

      The picture above is the result of a collision at just 65mph where my car contacted the rear driver's side corner of a Nissan Pathfinder. No, the damage is NOT from a tree. It's from the tail end of the Pathfinder's left frame rail. See the top of the passenger fender? The Pathfinder's bumper ended up on top of us. The idiot decided that he was going to make a U-TURN in the middle of a busy four lane highway (divided by a grass median). Result? The 1968 lap belts held, but the Mrs.' torso hinged forward and broke her L5 Vertebra. Her throat impacted the dashboard and started to close up from swelling. She was suffocating. The EMT's had to intubate her. Me? I tore the rim clear off the spokes of my then Grant GT steering wheel. Bruised sternum and nose (I'm fairly indestructable). We were both hauled away in matching his & hers ambulances. The car? Totaled. Back in the day (July 5, 1999) I had it insured for a whopping $11K. I bought it back for $1K. I dragged it home while the wife was at work. That way I could pull the windshield (which still had her hair in it), the dashboard (which was dented from her throat and my nose) and strip the trashed nose off the car so that it wouldn't look "too bad" when she got home.

      Each of us will make our own decisions anyway. I'm sorry for getting all "preachy" on yer asses. But picture yourself "pushing" head-on into a guardrail or leaving the road and sliding sideways through grass into a tree. Or maybe, just maybe god will drop a Pathfinder out of the sky.

      Instead of asking how to add safety equipment without it "getting in the way", ask how to properly add safety equipment. There are quite a few of us who know the only two ways to properly choose and mount equipment (and there ARE only two ways: Street or Competition) If you're just not willing to let it get in your way or cause you installation challenges, then don't build a fast car.



      >>>>gets off soapbox and stomps out of the clubhouse
      Last edited by Steve Chryssos; 01-16-2006 at 08:18 PM. Reason: Title Change
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      Steve Chryssos


    2. #2
      Join Date
      Nov 2001
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      Preach it brother.

      Steve speaks the truth. Our cars are about incorporating new technology in older cars. Saftey should be just as important as anything else we do.
      Tony Langlois
      1966 Corvair Monza

    3. #3
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      Right on Steve!
      These old cars really need a safety upgrade.
      67 Camaro RS that will be faster than anything Mary owns.

    4. #4
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      Dec 2003
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      It's OK Steve, most of the suspension and brake threads have gone the same way (instead of what works, it's what looks cool).



      I completely agree, if you are willing to put 500+RWHP in that chassis you better be willing to live with roll cages, difficult to climb in seats, and at least 4-way harnesses.

    5. #5
      Join Date
      May 2002
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      Northern California
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      Country Flag: Bosnia Herzegovina
      Man I still get chills from that pictures like the first time I saw it.

      Agreed with topic. I had a kid come in wanting a roll cage put in for a street driven car. He wanted a cage that looked real but was not. Thin wall tubing. I told him it would cost $15,000 and he was crazy for even thinking it. Looking over his car he had home made seat brackets made out of 3/16" AL...gun drilled to boot. Front and rear glass bumpers with the same 3/16" AL used for bracketry and yes gun drilled. I ripped him a new one and sent him down the street.
      Imagine what is out there that we don't see. Its like everything eles...education.
      MrQuick ΜΟΛ'ΩΝ ΛΑΒ'Ε

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    6. #6
      Join Date
      Mar 2005
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      westchester county new york
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      Steve No one really complained about anything, I said that a kirkey style nascar seat is the the safest setup but a pain to get out of. I also specifically said your setup was well done and not too bad too get in and ot of, thats not complaining is it?

      I actually plan to ditch the summit seats after I do my cage , I just think they are geared a little towards the the streetcar side of things.

      I told the story of the guy getting ripped out of his stock seats and killed because I know people forget how important this stuff is.

      If you thought guys were complaining about the inconvenience of safety in that thread, then I didnt explain myself clearly.

      I have seen a local car with corbeau belts, lap belts attached and shoulder belts dangling , the owner is a nice guy but I cant believe he thinks that is cool.

    7. #7
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      Quote Originally Posted by vanzuuk1
      Steve No one really complained about anything, I said that a kirkey style nascar seat is the the safest setup but a pain to get out of. .....
      Dirk,
      This isn't about one thread in particular, but rather an obvious tone that emerges if you read numerous threads in a row. And I'm not trying to say that everyone needs a cage, either. I just want folks to check style at the door when they start a safety thread. Ask "Whats the right way to do this, that, or the other thing?"
      ________________
      Steve Chryssos

    8. #8
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      Mar 2005
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      On a related note, over the holidays someone at a party started with the old thing about how much safer the "old steel cars" were than the "new plastic cars", I almost had a heart attack. He actually listened when I tried to explain how much auto safety has progressed, when I told him I had an old camaro he knew I wasnt biased towards the new stuff.

    9. #9
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      Steve I cant believe we are both staring at our macs this morning,we should be jogging or something!

      I totally agree with you about doing it the right way if you are going to do it, if you are going to add safety equipment do it correctly. I am still planning my cage and I havent done my four points because I didnt want to compromise and attach them to the rear shelf.

      I know the setup you have (and I will have) is not right for everybody but I wish guys who put in race seats , belts and cages would put more thought into the science involved. I must have asked you and dave pozzi a hundred questions already about this topic and I ask a lot more before I am done.

      Steevo when we take our bikes out this summer prepare to be teased for wearing a brain bucket instead of a full face.

    10. #10
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      Quote Originally Posted by vanzuuk1
      Steevo when we take our bikes out this summer prepare to be teased for wearing a brain bucket instead of a full face.
      I eat the bugs.
      ________________
      Steve Chryssos

    11. #11
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      Jun 2002
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      Benicia, CA
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      Thanks Steve!

      I agree that safety with our vehicles is generally way off, unless we spend time researching realistic safety improvements (cages/bars, seats, belts/harnesses, brakes, etc.) and money installing the improved parts properly. I have seen accidents involving speeds under 50 mph that would change nearly everyone's opinion of the need to ratchet up our vehicles' safety performance. Since my car will likely see a few tracks ayear, I will design everything from a total safety perspective. I will have a quality fire suppression system; a full cage; harnesses for safety, not comfort; safe steering wheel system; well-balanced brakes that work extremely well; and I will also take a few driver's training courses at ThunderHill.

      Safety cannot be compromised, our families depend on us, and if we can come up with the money for the wheel/tire packages, brakes, and drivetrain and suspension mods we seem to 'need', then safety improvements MUST be factored into the deal. Some of the safety 'transgressions' you pointed out show how pathetic some people are, they must be thinking that they are invincible or something. Life is short enough as it is, why push to shorten it even more? Of course having an unsafe car may not kill a person, maybe they will get lucky and just be severely handicapped instead...
      Jeff
      1971 RS Camaro: PAINKILLER

    12. #12
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      When I was younger we would take a beater car on its way to the junkyard and do really stupid things with it, it usually involved flying throught the woods and ended when the car would no longer move under its own power.

      The reason I bring this up is, every once in a while i would tell one of my buddies I wanted to show them something, we would run into a tree at a steady five to ten miles per hour, no braking. They were always amazed at how violent an impact it created at such low speed.

      For guys stupid enough to drive into trees it was very educational

    13. #13
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      Good reminder. I sincerely hope it's a joke about Steve's helmet. Safety applies to all types. I lived through a horrendous bike crash thanks in large part to a good fullface helmet.

      I get kidded occasionally about my 8-pt in my vert but tell anyone who will listen that the stock car is a death trap.
      69 Camaro convertible, 410, M22, 8-pt cage therapy program. SOLD.
      68 camaro - SOLD
      67 Bel Air - New street project with perfect floors, frame and trunk!

    14. #14
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      Quote Originally Posted by Rick Dorion
      Good reminder. I sincerely hope it's a joke about Steve's helmet. Safety applies to all types. I lived through a horrendous bike crash thanks in large part to a good fullface helmet.....
      No he's not kidding. I own and use both a full face and a beanie. Call me duplicitous, but the motorcycle debate begins with a philosophical debate: "Should they be ridden at all" or "Should they only be ridden on a track". Motorcycles are inherently deadly. No doors. No belts. Not much for a seat. As on any motorcycle forum, we can go on and on about the motorcycle safety debate until we are blue in the face. My .02 on motorcycle safety is brief and two fold: 1) The only safe motorcycle is one that's parked. 2) Don't ride until you have been to riding school. That's it. Learn how to ride and make peace with the deathwish or don't ride at all.

      Bringing motorcycles into this thread will only dilute its purpose.
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    15. #15
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      Let's do leave the motorcycles out of it. That's a whole other discussion.

      I'm making certain (via full rollcage, 4 pt harness, suitable seats) my ride is safe for insane speeds, but I worry about that same cage in ordinary street driving. I don't think driving around with a helmet is very cool (literally), but I'm concerned about the state of my noggin (and any passengers) if it rattles off those cage bars in an "ordinary" accident.

      There's no good answer for this ... I just worry about it.

      jp
      John Parsons

      UnRivaled Rides -- Modern upgrades for your ride.

      UnRivaled Rides recent project -- LS9-powered 69 Camaro

    16. #16
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      John O.K. , put bikes aside, I am with you on the cage issue.Of course you dont know what type of crash to anticipate, how many prostreet guys got rearended at a light and got "rollbared" in the back of the skull.No two accidents are alike so what saves one person could kill another.
      Again, I am not saying I am an expert but I have looked at a lot of wrecked cars out of curiousity.

    17. #17
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      Quote Originally Posted by parsonsj
      Let's do leave the motorcycles out of it. That's a whole other discussion.

      I'm making certain (via full rollcage, 4 pt harness, suitable seats) my ride is safe for insane speeds, but I worry about that same cage in ordinary street driving. I don't think driving around with a helmet is very cool (literally), but I'm concerned about the state of my noggin (and any passengers) if it rattles off those cage bars in an "ordinary" accident.

      There's no good answer for this ... I just worry about it.

      jp
      jp,
      For that reason, I'm only doing a roll bar on my 67 Camaro. I'm concerned about getting hit on the street and my head contacting a cage bar on the left side of my head. Camaros are pretty tight in that area, when I autocrossed the car, my helmet would sometimes hit the trim strip above the door.
      67 Camaro RS that will be faster than anything Mary owns.

    18. #18
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      Quote Originally Posted by parsonsj
      Let's do leave the motorcycles out of it. That's a whole other discussion.

      I'm making certain (via full rollcage, 4 pt harness, suitable seats) my ride is safe for insane speeds, but I worry about that same cage in ordinary street driving. I don't think driving around with a helmet is very cool (literally), but I'm concerned about the state of my noggin (and any passengers) if it rattles off those cage bars in an "ordinary" accident.

      There's no good answer for this ... I just worry about it.

      jp
      Agreed. Even though I cinch my 4-pt belts down very tight, my concern is the forces in an accident could create contact between my head and bar/padding. However, I opted for an 8-pt since the vert is even more crushable.
      69 Camaro convertible, 410, M22, 8-pt cage therapy program. SOLD.
      68 camaro - SOLD
      67 Bel Air - New street project with perfect floors, frame and trunk!

    19. #19
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      I' smellin what your cookin Steve. Haven't brought it up much because the "does it look cool" crowd tends to get their shorts in a bunch when anything like criticism (constructive or otherwise) is brought up. So I've taken a "live and let live/or die" approach figuring that we are all adults and ultimately responsible for ourselves. But in retrospect that is not the right thing to do if I am to call myself someone who gives a $^it about people and the future of this avocation. Which I do.

      So henceforth I will mention safety when and where appropriate.

      My car will have a full cage with door bars and all, padded in places where I might contact them in a street accident. I will have the best seats I can afford and three-points for the street and five-points for the track that will be properly installed and worn at all times.
      True T.

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    20. #20
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      Quote Originally Posted by parsonsj
      .......I'm making certain (via full rollcage, 4 pt harness, suitable seats) my ride is safe for insane speeds, but I worry about that same cage in ordinary street driving. I don't think driving around with a helmet is very cool (literally), but I'm concerned about the state of my noggin (and any passengers) if it rattles off those cage bars in an "ordinary" accident. There's no good answer for this ... I just worry about it.
      jp
      JP,
      I'd have to say that both of our halo/A-pillar bars could have been fabbed better. But okay, let's use our experiences to help educate others. The info will talk some people out of roll cages altogether while prompting other to be fanatical about bar placement. It may not save the day, but we both need to employ some high density SFI 45.1 padding in these areas. As an added benefit, the dense stuff is more compact.

      But anyway, full roll cages are a tiny minority. It's probably better to start a discussion about seats and belts. Then move on to roll bars and finally roll cages.

      There are some very basic do's and don'ts. Here's one example:

      DON'T use racing harnesses unless you have at least a roll bar with a rigid cross bar behind the seats. The rigid cross bar is the only way to properly mount shoulder harnesses. The bar must be at shoulder blade height. You can't run the shoulder harness to the floor behind the front seats. You can't mount them in the rear seat area. With either floor mount, the belts are too long. Belts have a certain amount of stretch per inch. The longer the belt, the more they will stretch. So floor mounted shoulder harnesses are too long. If you are not in a position to mount the shoulder harness exactly like the following picture, DON'T use racing harnesses. No exceptions. That's from Bill Simpson's arrogant mouth to my ears.

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