Breaks my heart (Consider safety when building speed into your car)

[Steve Chryssos]

It breaks my heart to read some of the threads in this section. You know..The ones where someone asks about adding safety equipment but complains about inconvenience or appearance. Stock or unsupportive seats? Removable harness bars? Go look at the difference between the number of suspension parts threads and the number of brake system threads. Whats up, Bob?

This is pro-touring.com. Reality check: We're all building 3000lb to 3500lb missiles. Top Speed Potential: 140mph? 160mph? More? Got Turbos? Maybe I've gone overboard with my car, but it sure seems like safety is an afterthought on most pro-touring cars. When I see a bad-ass 150mph fat tired P-T car with stock seats, stock belts and no roll bar, I walk away shaking my head. How about racing harnesses that aren't mounted to anything--but look cool. Ian Zerling's Camaro has racing harneses that are mounted (sewn) to the seat upholstery.



The picture above is the result of a collision at just 65mph where my car contacted the rear driver's side corner of a Nissan Pathfinder. No, the damage is NOT from a tree. It's from the tail end of the Pathfinder's left frame rail. See the top of the passenger fender? The Pathfinder's bumper ended up on top of us. The idiot decided that he was going to make a U-TURN in the middle of a busy four lane highway (divided by a grass median). Result? The 1968 lap belts held, but the Mrs.' torso hinged forward and broke her L5 Vertebra. Her throat impacted the dashboard and started to close up from swelling. She was suffocating. The EMT's had to intubate her. Me? I tore the rim clear off the spokes of my then Grant GT steering wheel. Bruised sternum and nose (I'm fairly indestructable). We were both hauled away in matching his & hers ambulances. The car? Totaled. Back in the day (July 5, 1999) I had it insured for a whopping $11K. I bought it back for $1K. I dragged it home while the wife was at work. That way I could pull the windshield (which still had her hair in it), the dashboard (which was dented from her throat and my nose) and strip the trashed nose off the car so that it wouldn't look "too bad" when she got home.

Each of us will make our own decisions anyway. I'm sorry for getting all "preachy" on yer asses. But picture yourself "pushing" head-on into a guardrail or leaving the road and sliding sideways through grass into a tree. Or maybe, just maybe god will drop a Pathfinder out of the sky.

Instead of asking how to add safety equipment without it "getting in the way", ask how to properly add safety equipment. There are quite a few of us who know the only two ways to properly choose and mount equipment (and there ARE only two ways: Street or Competition) If you're just not willing to let it get in your way or cause you installation challenges, then don't build a fast car.

>>>>gets off soapbox and stomps out of the clubhouse

[TonyL]

Preach it brother.

Steve speaks the truth. Our cars are about incorporating new technology in older cars. Saftey should be just as important as anything else we do.

[David Pozzi]

Right on Steve!
These old cars really need a safety upgrade.

[sinned]

It's OK Steve, most of the suspension and brake threads have gone the same way (instead of what works, it's what looks cool).



I completely agree, if you are willing to put 500+RWHP in that chassis you better be willing to live with roll cages, difficult to climb in seats, and at least 4-way harnesses.

[MrQuick]

Man I still get chills from that pictures like the first time I saw it.

Agreed with topic. I had a kid come in wanting a roll cage put in for a street driven car. He wanted a cage that looked real but was not. Thin wall tubing. I told him it would cost $15,000 and he was crazy for even thinking it. Looking over his car he had home made seat brackets made out of 3/16" AL...gun drilled to boot. Front and rear glass bumpers with the same 3/16" AL used for bracketry and yes gun drilled. I ripped him a new one and sent him down the street.
Imagine what is out there that we don't see. Its like everything eles...education.

[vanzuuk1]

Steve No one really complained about anything, I said that a kirkey style nascar seat is the the safest setup but a pain to get out of. I also specifically said your setup was well done and not too bad too get in and ot of, thats not complaining is it?

I actually plan to ditch the summit seats after I do my cage , I just think they are geared a little towards the the streetcar side of things.

I told the story of the guy getting ripped out of his stock seats and killed because I know people forget how important this stuff is.

If you thought guys were complaining about the inconvenience of safety in that thread, then I didnt explain myself clearly.

I have seen a local car with corbeau belts, lap belts attached and shoulder belts dangling , the owner is a nice guy but I cant believe he thinks that is cool.

[Steve Chryssos]

Steve No one really complained about anything, I said that a kirkey style nascar seat is the the safest setup but a pain to get out of. .....

Dirk,
This isn't about one thread in particular, but rather an obvious tone that emerges if you read numerous threads in a row. And I'm not trying to say that everyone needs a cage, either. I just want folks to check style at the door when they start a safety thread. Ask "Whats the right way to do this, that, or the other thing?"

[vanzuuk1]

On a related note, over the holidays someone at a party started with the old thing about how much safer the "old steel cars" were than the "new plastic cars", I almost had a heart attack. He actually listened when I tried to explain how much auto safety has progressed, when I told him I had an old camaro he knew I wasnt biased towards the new stuff.

[vanzuuk1]

Steve I cant believe we are both staring at our macs this morning,we should be jogging or something!

I totally agree with you about doing it the right way if you are going to do it, if you are going to add safety equipment do it correctly. I am still planning my cage and I havent done my four points because I didnt want to compromise and attach them to the rear shelf.

I know the setup you have (and I will have) is not right for everybody but I wish guys who put in race seats , belts and cages would put more thought into the science involved. I must have asked you and dave pozzi a hundred questions already about this topic and I ask a lot more before I am done.

Steevo when we take our bikes out this summer prepare to be teased for wearing a brain bucket instead of a full face.

[Steve Chryssos]

Steevo when we take our bikes out this summer prepare to be teased for wearing a brain bucket instead of a full face.

I eat the bugs.

[jeffandre]

I agree that safety with our vehicles is generally way off, unless we spend time researching realistic safety improvements (cages/bars, seats, belts/harnesses, brakes, etc.) and money installing the improved parts properly. I have seen accidents involving speeds under 50 mph that would change nearly everyone's opinion of the need to ratchet up our vehicles' safety performance. Since my car will likely see a few tracks ayear, I will design everything from a total safety perspective. I will have a quality fire suppression system; a full cage; harnesses for safety, not comfort; safe steering wheel system; well-balanced brakes that work extremely well; and I will also take a few driver's training courses at ThunderHill.

Safety cannot be compromised, our families depend on us, and if we can come up with the money for the wheel/tire packages, brakes, and drivetrain and suspension mods we seem to 'need', then safety improvements MUST be factored into the deal. Some of the safety 'transgressions' you pointed out show how pathetic some people are, they must be thinking that they are invincible or something. Life is short enough as it is, why push to shorten it even more? Of course having an unsafe car may not kill a person, maybe they will get lucky and just be severely handicapped instead...

[USAZR1]

Steve,when we take our bikes out this summer prepare to be teased for wearing a brain bucket instead of a full face.

Why don't you wear full-face helmets?

[vanzuuk1]

When I was younger we would take a beater car on its way to the junkyard and do really stupid things with it, it usually involved flying throught the woods and ended when the car would no longer move under its own power.

The reason I bring this up is, every once in a while i would tell one of my buddies I wanted to show them something, we would run into a tree at a steady five to ten miles per hour, no braking. They were always amazed at how violent an impact it created at such low speed.

For guys stupid enough to drive into trees it was very educational

[Rick Dorion]

Good reminder. I sincerely hope it's a joke about Steve's helmet. Safety applies to all types. I lived through a horrendous bike crash thanks in large part to a good fullface helmet.

I get kidded occasionally about my 8-pt in my vert but tell anyone who will listen that the stock car is a death trap.

[Steve Chryssos]

Good reminder. I sincerely hope it's a joke about Steve's helmet. Safety applies to all types. I lived through a horrendous bike crash thanks in large part to a good fullface helmet.....

No he's not kidding. I own and use both a full face and a beanie. Call me duplicitous, but the motorcycle debate begins with a philosophical debate: "Should they be ridden at all" or "Should they only be ridden on a track". Motorcycles are inherently deadly. No doors. No belts. Not much for a seat. As on any motorcycle forum, we can go on and on about the motorcycle safety debate until we are blue in the face. My .02 on motorcycle safety is brief and two fold: 1) The only safe motorcycle is one that's parked. 2) Don't ride until you have been to riding school. That's it. Learn how to ride and make peace with the deathwish or don't ride at all.

Bringing motorcycles into this thread will only dilute its purpose.

[parsonsj]

Let's do leave the motorcycles out of it. That's a whole other discussion.

I'm making certain (via full rollcage, 4 pt harness, suitable seats) my ride is safe for insane speeds, but I worry about that same cage in ordinary street driving. I don't think driving around with a helmet is very cool (literally), but I'm concerned about the state of my noggin (and any passengers) if it rattles off those cage bars in an "ordinary" accident.

There's no good answer for this ... I just worry about it.

jp

[David Pozzi]

Let's do leave the motorcycles out of it. That's a whole other discussion.

I'm making certain (via full rollcage, 4 pt harness, suitable seats) my ride is safe for insane speeds, but I worry about that same cage in ordinary street driving. I don't think driving around with a helmet is very cool (literally), but I'm concerned about the state of my noggin (and any passengers) if it rattles off those cage bars in an "ordinary" accident.

There's no good answer for this ... I just worry about it.

jp

jp,
For that reason, I'm only doing a roll bar on my 67 Camaro. I'm concerned about getting hit on the street and my head contacting a cage bar on the left side of my head. Camaros are pretty tight in that area, when I autocrossed the car, my helmet would sometimes hit the trim strip above the door.

[Steve1968LS2]

jp,
For that reason, I'm only doing a roll bar on my 67 Camaro. I'm concerned about getting hit on the street and my head contacting a cage bar on the left side of my head. Camaros are pretty tight in that area, when I autocrossed the car, my helmet would sometimes hit the trim strip above the door.

That is why I am leaving my car with no backseat.. it would be foolish to put ANYONE in a back seat when you have almost any design of roll bar or cage.

Very good topic

[Jim Nilsen]

I thought I would post this link again so more would know that better rollbar padding is available.

http://www.rollbarpadding.com/

Since the everyday padding sold for years is considered useless and I still haven't bought mine yet but am getting close, maybe now would be a great time to make a group purchase on rollbar padding.

On another note about saftey I have been installing my battery cables and have a kill switch mounted on the rear panel as required in a lot of racing sanctions, it is an extra 7 ft. of cable to do it and it will be setup to kill the alternator also. I keep telling myself that adding another switch on the inside of the car so I can kill the power from the driver seat is a good idea but the routing of that 2/0 cable is heavy and the likelyhood of having the time to hit it in the event of an accident will be slim. So how many here have a kill switch they can reach to shut it all down inside the cabin? Part of me tells me to install one inside and part of me tells me that I can use the ignition if I am aware of the problem and have the time to do something either way. I also think if I had the time and choice I would rather hit a fire extinguisher release instead.

Where a person draw the line on saftey and need for saftey equipment is is as bad as getting people to wear saftey glasses at work. You keep telling yourself you should never need it, but it just isn't true. You always need it before you need it.

The nice thing about my battery kill switch is that it is a newer push style from Flaming River and if I get hit in the rear it will more than likely kill the power upon impact. Whether it will stop the wires from getting cut into and still causing a short and some sparks,who knows. But it is one more little thing that might help.

Most of all saftey begins with the driver and making safe decisions will keep you out of trouble long before saftey equipment will need to save you.

I could go on and on and back Steevo up all day long. There are sections that saftey can be divided into and putting a priority on them might help along with revealing the cost of doing them. Some saftey features can be just simply doing an installation in a different way as has been stated many times and cost has nothing to do with it.

I also want to thankyou Steevo for introducing me to the Racepumps fuel pump. I no longer have to worry of having my electric fuel pump spewing fuel all over the place in case of an accident. It is truly a saftey device all in its own with fuel injected cars yet isn't probably considered a saftey device to some an really doesn't cost any more than a good electric fuel pump setup.

Jim Nilsen

[jeffandre]

I think rear seats and cages can work if the rear seats have harnesses that do not allow the passengers to come into contact with the tubing (which I admit can be difficult to design out of the way in most of our cars). If I ever get into a big enough accident with a passenger and their harness fails to the point that they contact the cage, or the car crushes inward causing a tube to contact a passenger, I figure they would have been in pretty bad shape anyway even without a cage. I realize that there are probably many examples of rear seat passengers being hurt by roll cages, but I bet most if not all of these injuries did not include harnesses worn as designed.

Excellent points made, each of us needs to really think about those that may be riding in the back seats, as their safety is no less important than ours. I will have to rethink my cage and seating setup when the time comes to install the cage (late 2006).