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    1. #21
      Join Date
      Oct 2010
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      Quote Originally Posted by parsonsj View Post
      I know others have had occasional luck with 9" setups that run "quiet", but I never have. I've spoken and corresponded with many others over the years, including some of the manufacturers, and I've concluded that it's just not part of the engineering criteria for the aftermarket. Factory gears are "triple-lapped" whereas most aftermarket sets are "single-lapped". I admit I've not used any of the new "double-lapped" sets coming on the market in the past couple of years, so they might be better.



      In any case, if you want OEM noise levels, I'd use a Ford 8.8 setup. It's nearly as strong, has less parasitic loss, and can be had with 3" axle tubes, 31 spline axles, and any differential you can name. The best bit is that Ford Motorsports still manufactures and sells R&P kits. You can even find new housings if you look for them.
      Thanks for the info. If I had to do this over again I would probably go with the 8.8 for the weight savings and decrease in parasitic loss, although I have a 2012 boss 302 with an 8.8 that has a little whine to it as well. The dealer replaced the ring gear and pinion and all bearings under warranty twice, and there was no improvement. Its not terrible, but it is in a car that has a ton of rubber isolation, I would imagine it would be a bit worse if the rear suspension was all heim joints (like my mach 1). I could go to the effort of swapping the axle, which would require a bit of fabrication work and a different torque arm and watts link mount making it relatively expensive, but it seems to me that there is risk that there won't be an improvement in noise.

      This build has sacrificed most comforts for the sake of performance, so, some noise is tolerable.....actually a lot of noise is tolerable, but the volume and frequency of this gear whine i currently have is enough that I can't stand to drive the car at all.


      Quote Originally Posted by andrewb70 View Post
      I had this on order with Summit:

      https://www.summitracing.com/parts/ugr-s007

      The order was cancelled and now it shows as unavailable. I don't know if US Gear decided not to make these, but supposedly they were going to use a different manufacturing process that made the gears quiet.

      My Cougar had a OEM 4.30 gear set in it and it was dead quiet.

      Andrew

      Its starting to sound like I should give the old oem gears a try.
      Zach

      "It so repulsive to see such a beautiful 1970 Mustang, with the other teams engine transplanted into it. I know that car would spit that thing out if it could. Just ruined it, when everything else about the car is so nice." - Bossed


    2. #22
      Join Date
      May 2012
      Location
      Kansas City, Missouri
      Posts
      480
      Country Flag: United States
      Just get a louder stereo

    3. #23
      Join Date
      Oct 2010
      Location
      SLC
      Posts
      495
      Quote Originally Posted by thumper877 View Post
      Just get a louder stereo

      like this?
      AlphaBass Headset with OFFROAD Cable – Rugged Radios
      Zach

      "It so repulsive to see such a beautiful 1970 Mustang, with the other teams engine transplanted into it. I know that car would spit that thing out if it could. Just ruined it, when everything else about the car is so nice." - Bossed

    4. #24
      Join Date
      Nov 2018
      Posts
      436
      Country Flag: United States
      Don't know if this will help, but...

      https://johnsindustries.com/quiet-zone.htm

      I've never used them, no opinion, but they claim to be whisper-quiet.
      2021 Durango R/T
      2008 Colorado beater
      2003 Dakota project-o-mobile

    5. #25
      Join Date
      Oct 2010
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      SLC
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      495
      Quote Originally Posted by Vimes View Post
      Don't know if this will help, but...

      https://johnsindustries.com/quiet-zone.htm

      I've never used them, no opinion, but they claim to be whisper-quiet.

      interesting. thanks for the link.
      Zach

      "It so repulsive to see such a beautiful 1970 Mustang, with the other teams engine transplanted into it. I know that car would spit that thing out if it could. Just ruined it, when everything else about the car is so nice." - Bossed

    6. #26
      Join Date
      Dec 2002
      Location
      MusicCity
      Posts
      474

      My NVH battles with the Ford 9"

      I have been running Ford 9" rear ends in most everything I have ever put part breaking power into. They have been a love / hate relationship, but I have never broken one no matter what obnoxious abuse I have put one through - that's the love part. Having said that, I too am very sensitive to gear noise, and have had to retune all of my 9's over and over to get them to tone down - what worked on one didn't work on the other, and patterns right on the money were sometimes the noisiest (!) While it took diving back into the "chunk" many times, I finally managed to tune each one eventually in sort of like a blind man. If I went too far in one direction, it got noisy. If I went back in the other direction, it got quieter. I would chase down the quietest settings I could muster, calling whine under acceleration good, but zero tolerance for whining while on the highway - the NVH tuning and retuning was always the hate part...

      If I saw that amount of metal coming out of my diff, I would flip out - that's a LOT of large flake. Enough to damage all of the bearings exposed to gear oil (everything in the center section). I would call that a fail, replacing the gear set along with all of the bearings and races, then flushing the wee out of the housing endlessly until every last bit of flake was definitely out whatever it took. One thing I always did was to polish all of the teeth on a new gear set on my 6" bench grinder with a soft wire wheel installed to smooth off the majority of the rough dark gear out of the box teeth. My theory on that was to remove that initial amount of surface harshness that was inevitably going to wear off during a first run, immediately shedding particulate into the gear oil. Saving that teaspoon of initial crud wearing off into the diff always seemed to help get the gears quieter with less back and forth tuning. It also resulted in finding only a little bit of grey pasty fine particulate on the magnetic fill and drain plugs after gently running the gears in a 100 +/- miles. I have also always done this with all flat tappet cams I have ever installed, never wiping a lobe out.

      Now I come to what really helped me the most:

      https://www.summitracing.com/parts/red-58204

      This shockproof thick formula has micro pulverized plastic in suspension of the fluid. This was always my secret weapon to get a "9" to run quieter and cooler. There is one catch though, as it layers everything with a super slippery layer of Teflon type coating - great for bearings and gears, but, well, not so good on limited slip clutch type posi units, absolutely not good with the Auburn cone type posi units. This stuff will turn a limited slip diff into an occasional one wheel squeal until it takes in a bite to lock in the posi actions. To combat this, I switched over to locker style rear ends - a bit crabby and less elegant than a silky smooth limited slip, but immune to the effects of having a gear lube that was too slippery. Checking your diff fluid was weird, looking like PeptoBismol on your fill / drain plug.

      Flash forward, and now the real solution has come to market:

      https://www.usgear.com/products/ring...ghtning-series

      https://www.usgear.com/about/super-finishing

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KeRdswkeiI


      Mind you, they aren't cheap:

      https://www.summitracing.com/parts/msr-09f370-isf

      This has been the quietest 9" 3.70 gear I have ever run - what they could only dream of years ago. New car NVH, no break in required, not ultra sensitive to heel / toe, just fantastic. It only took 50 years to get it right, but FINALLY a quiet 9" is possible - hooray!

      Hope this helps?

      There IS a difference - Thank you for choosing Hydratech!

      Paul M. Clark
      Founder / Master Engineer

      Hydratech Braking Systems ®
      www.hydratechbraking.com

    7. #27
      Join Date
      Oct 2010
      Location
      SLC
      Posts
      495
      Quote Originally Posted by Hydratech® View Post
      I have been running Ford 9" rear ends in most everything I have ever put part breaking power into. They have been a love / hate relationship, but I have never broken one no matter what obnoxious abuse I have put one through - that's the love part. Having said that, I too am very sensitive to gear noise, and have had to retune all of my 9's over and over to get them to tone down - what worked on one didn't work on the other, and patterns right on the money were sometimes the noisiest (!) While it took diving back into the "chunk" many times, I finally managed to tune each one eventually in sort of like a blind man. If I went too far in one direction, it got noisy. If I went back in the other direction, it got quieter. I would chase down the quietest settings I could muster, calling whine under acceleration good, but zero tolerance for whining while on the highway - the NVH tuning and retuning was always the hate part...

      If I saw that amount of metal coming out of my diff, I would flip out - that's a LOT of large flake. Enough to damage all of the bearings exposed to gear oil (everything in the center section). I would call that a fail, replacing the gear set along with all of the bearings and races, then flushing the wee out of the housing endlessly until every last bit of flake was definitely out whatever it took. One thing I always did was to polish all of the teeth on a new gear set on my 6" bench grinder with a soft wire wheel installed to smooth off the majority of the rough dark gear out of the box teeth. My theory on that was to remove that initial amount of surface harshness that was inevitably going to wear off during a first run, immediately shedding particulate into the gear oil. Saving that teaspoon of initial crud wearing off into the diff always seemed to help get the gears quieter with less back and forth tuning. It also resulted in finding only a little bit of grey pasty fine particulate on the magnetic fill and drain plugs after gently running the gears in a 100 +/- miles. I have also always done this with all flat tappet cams I have ever installed, never wiping a lobe out.

      Now I come to what really helped me the most:

      https://www.summitracing.com/parts/red-58204

      This shockproof thick formula has micro pulverized plastic in suspension of the fluid. This was always my secret weapon to get a "9" to run quieter and cooler. There is one catch though, as it layers everything with a super slippery layer of Teflon type coating - great for bearings and gears, but, well, not so good on limited slip clutch type posi units, absolutely not good with the Auburn cone type posi units. This stuff will turn a limited slip diff into an occasional one wheel squeal until it takes in a bite to lock in the posi actions. To combat this, I switched over to locker style rear ends - a bit crabby and less elegant than a silky smooth limited slip, but immune to the effects of having a gear lube that was too slippery. Checking your diff fluid was weird, looking like PeptoBismol on your fill / drain plug.

      Flash forward, and now the real solution has come to market:

      https://www.usgear.com/products/ring...ghtning-series

      https://www.usgear.com/about/super-finishing

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KeRdswkeiI


      Mind you, they aren't cheap:

      https://www.summitracing.com/parts/msr-09f370-isf

      This has been the quietest 9" 3.70 gear I have ever run - what they could only dream of years ago. New car NVH, no break in required, not ultra sensitive to heel / toe, just fantastic. It only took 50 years to get it right, but FINALLY a quiet 9" is possible - hooray!

      Hope this helps?

      thankyou for the detailed response. definitely some good info in there. Although, I'm not thrilled that you've indicated that I have scrapped a set of new gears and bearings....but I had a feeling that was what was going on when i drained the oil.
      Zach

      "It so repulsive to see such a beautiful 1970 Mustang, with the other teams engine transplanted into it. I know that car would spit that thing out if it could. Just ruined it, when everything else about the car is so nice." - Bossed

    8. #28
      Join Date
      Oct 2010
      Location
      SLC
      Posts
      495
      suppose I was to spring for one of these super quiet US stealth gearsets? should I go to a 3.89:1 since the 3.70 is a common "whiny" ratio?

      also closer inspection of bearing races has revealed some debris related damage. Argg!.
      Zach

      "It so repulsive to see such a beautiful 1970 Mustang, with the other teams engine transplanted into it. I know that car would spit that thing out if it could. Just ruined it, when everything else about the car is so nice." - Bossed

    9. #29
      Join Date
      Aug 2004
      Location
      Texas
      Posts
      321
      Quote Originally Posted by Hydratech® View Post
      .....Now I come to what really helped me the most: https://www.summitracing.com/parts/red-58204

      This shockproof thick formula has micro pulverized plastic in suspension of the fluid. This was always my secret weapon to get a "9" to run quieter and cooler.....To combat this, I switched over to locker style rear ends - a bit crabby and less elegant than a silky smooth limited slip, but immune to the effects of having a gear lube that was too slippery. Checking your diff fluid was weird, looking like PeptoBismol on your fill / drain plug.

      Flash forward, and now the real solution has come to market:...................
      So you don't use the 58204 fluid anymore, even with lightning gears and a locker?
      -Bob (66 Nova)

    10. #30
      Join Date
      Sep 2006
      Location
      Southern Indiana
      Posts
      4,712
      Country Flag: United States
      Ok , from an old Ford trained tech. I read the old manuals on Ford 8"&9" and because of the design they do make a whine or howl of sorts. It's by design those supposedly quiet factory gears generally are weaker and have different tooth configuration. Ie different tooth count.
      Performance gears ,generally, do an awesome job with minimal noise.
      On the stock side the manual stated lighter cars would make less noise, higher weight may "sing more" and was stated to test looser or tighter backlash, additives and gear oil weights. Right in training book.
      Easiest way to keep 9" quiet is touse the center sections that run 12 bolt GM gears. I believe it's Strange who makes those.
      Honestly, my buddy has 5 sec 1/8th mile drag car that has had 12 bolt since built. Alston Pro Gas chassis, VFN body, 380sbc/glide.
      He was even 2011 div 3 champ.
      He started out running hard block filled 355 production block, Hapco prepped oem steel crank, Indy Cylinder head ported Dart/World Products iron heads and lots of compression. Fresh out of garage started 6.05 et on 12 bolt rear. It was built in early 90s.
      Finally settled into mid/high 5s till bad crank trigger pushed out front half of crank, and bent some rods.
      The 380 is Bowtie CNC, Crower crank and rods, SRP pistons and Browns ported Brodix heads. 700+ HP and maximum grip.
      9in whine, I have had great luck with Shaefers (https://www.schaefferoil.com/gear-oils-lubricants.html) lubricants.
      Old friend turned me on to them for specialized issues.
      Honestly after having built several rearends I simply follow gear makers break in procedure and and have used Shell lubricants as they are generally available everywhere. And had little issue.
      If your still getting too .much noise try the Shaefers, if. It acceptable swap to the 12 bolt geared center section.
      Lee Abel
      AFTERMARKET PERFORMANCE

      1977 Chevy Monza 2+2:Project "Cheap Trick"
      1978 C10 Long bed , On air and trailer puller
      2006 Buell Blast ,Just a bike to ride and for mileage
      1966 Caprice 4dr Sports Roof fact.327/now 350/SOON 454???? Project "II Old,,,ZERO BUDGET OR LESS CAPRICE!"

    11. #31
      Join Date
      Oct 2010
      Location
      SLC
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      495
      Quote Originally Posted by MonzaRacer View Post
      Ok , from an old Ford trained tech. I read the old manuals on Ford 8"&9" and because of the design they do make a whine or howl of sorts. It's by design those supposedly quiet factory gears generally are weaker and have different tooth configuration. Ie different tooth count.
      Performance gears ,generally, do an awesome job with minimal noise.
      On the stock side the manual stated lighter cars would make less noise, higher weight may "sing more" and was stated to test looser or tighter backlash, additives and gear oil weights. Right in training book.
      Easiest way to keep 9" quiet is touse the center sections that run 12 bolt GM gears. I believe it's Strange who makes those.
      Honestly, my buddy has 5 sec 1/8th mile drag car that has had 12 bolt since built. Alston Pro Gas chassis, VFN body, 380sbc/glide.
      He was even 2011 div 3 champ.
      He started out running hard block filled 355 production block, Hapco prepped oem steel crank, Indy Cylinder head ported Dart/World Products iron heads and lots of compression. Fresh out of garage started 6.05 et on 12 bolt rear. It was built in early 90s.
      Finally settled into mid/high 5s till bad crank trigger pushed out front half of crank, and bent some rods.
      The 380 is Bowtie CNC, Crower crank and rods, SRP pistons and Browns ported Brodix heads. 700+ HP and maximum grip.
      9in whine, I have had great luck with Shaefers (https://www.schaefferoil.com/gear-oils-lubricants.html) lubricants.
      Old friend turned me on to them for specialized issues.
      Honestly after having built several rearends I simply follow gear makers break in procedure and and have used Shell lubricants as they are generally available everywhere. And had little issue.
      If your still getting too .much noise try the Shaefers, if. It acceptable swap to the 12 bolt geared center section.

      I'm thinking I should have been better about performing break in. but instead I went straight to dyno tuning, and I think that set a bad wear pattern in motion. I think the measurable increase in backlash.....and the metal content in the oil over 150 miles is evidence of that.

      I cant use the 12 bolt center section because my torque arm bolts to the pinion support. unfortunately, the way my rear suspension is set up, I don't have a lot of options for swapping axles, or center sections without doing a lot of fabrication.
      Zach

      "It so repulsive to see such a beautiful 1970 Mustang, with the other teams engine transplanted into it. I know that car would spit that thing out if it could. Just ruined it, when everything else about the car is so nice." - Bossed

    12. #32
      Join Date
      Nov 2018
      Posts
      436
      Country Flag: United States
      Quote Originally Posted by MonzaRacer View Post
      Easiest way to keep 9" quiet is touse the center sections that run 12 bolt GM gears. I believe it's Strange who makes those.
      Honestly, my buddy has 5 sec 1/8th mile drag car that has had 12 bolt since built. Alston Pro Gas chassis, VFN body, 380sbc/glide.
      I checked into that setup when I was planning a 3-link on my truck, due to the GM gearing requiring less power to run than the 9 inch. Strange recommends their GM 12 bolt gear conversion for the 9 inch for very lightweight cars, something like the 2000lb range, and said it was designed specifically for drag racers.
      2021 Durango R/T
      2008 Colorado beater
      2003 Dakota project-o-mobile

    13. #33
      Join Date
      Aug 2008
      Location
      Dallas, TX
      Posts
      51
      I'm just gonna have to have noisy car rolling down the road then. I've spent enough money on my rear end...housing, gears, True-Trac, etc. I invested in the REM, polished gears from Gear FX to hopefully offset the noise. If not, oh well, I'm gonna deal with the whining noise cuz I'm not spending any more money.
      Used to be known as 509chevelle

    14. #34
      Join Date
      Dec 2002
      Location
      Lost Wages, Nevada
      Posts
      2,684
      Country Flag: United States
      Sooo... the long and the short of it...

      USGear is, and has been, in the process of building a *new manufacturing facility and their primary role was aftermarket gearsets, including the Lightening/Stealth series gears. I have even heard stories from others in the industry that USGear has gone out of business, but have since quelled that story as being untrue. And now, COVID has put its nasty little hands into the time line and we wait & see. We *might see production some time in the middle of next summer. I sure hope so. They are my all time favorite gearsets to use across the Big Three (next would be Precision, only because they purchased USGear's old manufacturing equipment way back in the early 90's)... but for now, its only stock on hand. I would even use a standard USGearset over pretty much all of the others because of manufacturing processes, quality control issues and the metallurgy used by USGear.


      Most OEM 9" and 8.8" gearset (including Ford Motorsport) made in the 80's, 90's and early 2000's were made by USGear. So that should tell you something. Anyway... be on the look out for middle of 2022 for an update on that.


      Quote Originally Posted by andrewb70 View Post
      I had this on order with Summit:

      https://www.summitracing.com/parts/ugr-s007

      The order was cancelled and now it shows as unavailable. I don't know if US Gear decided not to make these, but supposedly they were going to use a different manufacturing process that made the gears quiet.

      My Cougar had a OEM 4.30 gear set in it and it was dead quiet.

      Andrew

    15. #35
      Join Date
      Dec 2002
      Location
      Lost Wages, Nevada
      Posts
      2,684
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      I will second the reply. Those gears are toast. No matter what you do now, they wont recover.

      By the look of the pictures, it was set up too deep from the get go and possibly the lash was too tight initially and they got cooked upon break-in. You have to watch the temperature when doing these kind of things. I giggle... GearFX is doing what we were doing 30 years ago and now offering the processes as a 'service'. It's nice to see someone paying attention to those details in the industry as an up front process.

      See post to Andrew for my reply... but I didn't have issues with any particular ratio, for 30+ years... so take that article with a grain of salt. It all comes down to paint wipe, proper bearing pre-load and back lash. Meaning: mechanical experience wins. But... I wouldn't say no to a USGear gearset (or Precision) if I had the option out of all others out there... well, except for maybe Visteon gears.

      I will also second the advisement on Schaffers, straight weight 140wt, #209 Red with the suspended moly... as well as their assembly lubricant. I have never had an oil related failure with Schaffers in 30+ years. Their assembly lube is so good that I had a customer (back in the mid 90's) do his 9" break in... without oil... and I actually reused the bearings when I put in another gearset. So no, don't skimp on doing it right the first time.

      Last but not least is the break in cycle. New everything- drive the car for 20-30 minutes of constant speed (freeway driving) and then stop and let it cool overnight. Do this 5-6 times before you even think about putting load into/onto it... or hammering it, or hitting up the dyno, or drag racing it, or cone killing... etc etc.

      The problem with so many gearsets now-a-days is the big talk (and changes that effect all of this) are about face hobbing, 2 cut, 3 cut, 5 cut... and most, if not all problems being associated with overseas manufacturing and metallurgy problems.


      Quote Originally Posted by Zachalanche View Post
      thankyou for the detailed response. definitely some good info in there. Although, I'm not thrilled that you've indicated that I have scrapped a set of new gears and bearings....but I had a feeling that was what was going on when i drained the oil.

    16. #36
      Join Date
      Oct 2010
      Location
      SLC
      Posts
      495
      thanks chicane67

      now that I think about it, this may be the first car i've ever built that was capable of doing this kind of damage. the only other re-gears I have done were in my 89 ranger which couldn't pull your hat off, and my 67 fairlane which has some performance, but probably less than half the power of my mustang. For both vehicles, I paid little attention to break in, but typical driving for those vehicles was pretty close to break in conditions. The mustang on the other hand - Straight to the dyno. I guess in hindsight that wasn't the best decision.
      Zach

      "It so repulsive to see such a beautiful 1970 Mustang, with the other teams engine transplanted into it. I know that car would spit that thing out if it could. Just ruined it, when everything else about the car is so nice." - Bossed

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