MC recommendations...

[roguegeek]

Second-gen Camaro with full Speedtech ExtReme suspension and Baer 14" Pro+ brakes front and rear. Car is going to be daily driven while performing 8-12 competitive track days a year. I need to figure out the master cylinder. Talked with Speedtech and they said they throw Wilwood MC for manual brakes on 70% of their cars. My initial thought is to run a manual setup for a while, see what I like/dislike about it, and make changes later if needed. I'm wondering what you guys think about manual brakes vs power vs hydroboost, what you think of the recommendation, and what you'd recommend for my application.

Once again, thanks!



Edit: PS pump is the PSC GM Type 2 Power Steering Pump found on the Wegner WAK033. 3.1 gal/minute, 1500 psi.

[79 Camaro]

I had manual brakes on a LS swapped 67 Nova. They worked well but you did have to push harder. On a 66 Mustang I had hydro-boost and it worked well also. The hydro-boost was a bit sensitive and could put your nose up against the wind shield. Also with hydro-boost you will a power steering pump.

[roguegeek]

I had manual brakes on a LS swapped 67 Nova. They worked well but you did have to push harder. On a 66 Mustang I had hydro-boost and it worked well also. The hydro-boost was a bit sensitive and could put your nose up against the wind shield. Also with hydro-boost you will a power steering pump.

The sensitivity part of hydroboost has been the one consistent criticism I've been reading. Is it really that hard to dial in? Thanks for mentioning the PS pump. I'll go back and put that information in my top post as well in case it's valuable for anyone.

[vette427-sbc]

Manual brakes... get the correct ratio master, then play with different pad coef. You will typically need something with a bit more initial bite than on a power assisted setup to get it to feel “normal” under daily driving use. In my OPINION hydroboost is not for competitive track driving.

[roguegeek]

Manual brakes... get the correct ratio master, then play with different pad coef. You will typically need something with a bit more initial bite than on a power assisted setup to get it to feel “normal” under daily driving use. In my OPINION hydroboost is not for competitive track driving.

Ok. That makes sense. Have to read up on master cylinder ratio now. I was recommended the Wilwood MC with 15/16" bore for my Baer Pro+. Need to see what all of that means for ratio.

[65 drop top]

Baer recommends a 15/16” master for manual, 1” power, 1 1/8” hydro. It seems like a lot of racers prefer manual because of the pedal feed back. Then next would be power brakes. I’ve never driven a hydraboost brake car, but from what I’ve heard those are more like an on-off switch. But to really give you the absolute best answer, you need to know the caliper piston area and pedal ratio. If I recall, Baers have a relatively small piston area, which makes me think a power brake set up is the way to go, to really get the most out of them.

[Gmachine1911]

I’ve got Baer 6 piston brakes/14” rotors on the front and 4 piston/12” rotors on the back of my 68 Camaro. I run the Baer Remaster in 15/16” and their prop valve. The car sees about the same amount of track days, maybe a few more then yours will and is driven regularly on the street and I love the feel of the manual brakes. You get excellent feedback and it’s easy to tune. Pedal ratio is important and you can play with different brake pads to dial things in as well. What you DON’T want is anything locking the brakes up, that’s easy enough to do momentarily as it is (especially on the track) and you’ll ruin your tires quickly if it becomes a habit. The one item that I didn’t fully appreciate until after having the car on the track the first time (and plan to change at some point) is the full floater setup for the rearend. The pad knock back is definitely noticeable and will happen whether it’s manual or power brakes but it causes me to have to give the brakes an initial “pump” going into hard turns to get the pads in their best position to bite hard. It may not be as noticeable with power brakes, not sure, but I can see why the hard core guys go full floater. As far as the street, the brakes are awesome, the pedal feel to me is not much different then power brakes except it doesn’t have the sensitivity to get used to when you switch vehicles and there’s never been a time that I’ve been concerned about not being able to stop or given it a second thought.

[roguegeek]

Baer recommends a 15/16” master for manual, 1” power, 1 1/8” hydro. It seems like a lot of racers prefer manual because of the pedal feed back. Then next would be power brakes. I’ve never driven a hydraboost brake car, but from what I’ve heard those are more like an on-off switch. But to really give you the absolute best answer, you need to know the caliper piston area and pedal ratio. If I recall, Baers have a relatively small piston area, which makes me think a power brake set up is the way to go, to really get the most out of them.

Ok. Good feedback. I guess I should start researching pedals then. Any recommendations here?

I’ve got Baer 6 piston brakes/14” rotors on the front and 4 piston/12” rotors on the back of my 68 Camaro. I run the Baer Remaster in 15/16” and their prop valve. The car sees about the same amount of track days, maybe a few more then yours will and is driven regularly on the street and I love the feel of the manual brakes. You get excellent feedback and it’s easy to tune. Pedal ratio is important and you can play with different brake pads to dial things in as well. What you DON’T want is anything locking the brakes up, that’s easy enough to do momentarily as it is (especially on the track) and you’ll ruin your tires quickly if it becomes a habit. The one item that I didn’t fully appreciate until after having the car on the track the first time (and plan to change at some point) is the full floater setup for the rearend. The pad knock back is definitely noticeable and will happen whether it’s manual or power brakes but it causes me to have to give the brakes an initial “pump” going into hard turns to get the pads in their best position to bite hard. It may not be as noticeable with power brakes, not sure, but I can see why the hard core guys go full floater. As far as the street, the brakes are awesome, the pedal feel to me is not much different then power brakes except it doesn’t have the sensitivity to get used to when you switch vehicles and there’s never been a time that I’ve been concerned about not being able to stop or given it a second thought.

Thanks for the feedback. Manual brakes it is then for this car. At least initially. My car has the Dutchman 9" without the full floater. It was a debate for me as to whether or not it'd be worth the upgrade at this time, but I will keep this in mind as I'm driving the car and feeling out the characteristics.

[stab6902]

If your engine makes enough vacuum, I'd recommend a regular vacuum booster, something like this https://www.detroitspeed.com/brake-b...irebird-050106
You can piece it together yourself if cost is a concern; it's C6 Corvette stuff. That's what I'm running and I really like it - it feels like a modern Corvette (which stands to reason lol). It's not at all "too-sensitive" or prone to lockup.

You have to remember the vacuum booster amplifies your leg force by a factor of ~3 (could be more depending on the size/design of the booster). With manual brakes, you'll either have more pedal effort or more pedal travel, and the best compromise is usually some of both. You can compensate for some of this with high mu pads, but that usually comes with other tradeoffs, like lots of dust and noise. You'll feel pad knockback (via longer pedal travel) a lot more with manual brakes since you have to run a smaller master cylinder and a greater pedal ratio to get enough leverage to stop the car comfortably.

Modern brake boosters from performance applications feel great and are very easy to modulate in my opinion - they're a far cry from what these cars came with 50 years ago. In short, if you're after a modern Corvette, Camaro, BMW, Porsche, etc. type feel, go with vacuum assisted brakes. If you want the racecar feel (or your engine doesn't produce vacuum), manual brakes are probably a better choice.


Hyrdoboost is a distant last place for the reasons others have mentioned. I'm not aware of any performance cars that ever left the factory with hydroboost - only trucks, SUVs, and vans. They were never intended for performance applications.

[roguegeek]

If your engine makes enough vacuum, I'd recommend a regular vacuum booster, something like this https://www.detroitspeed.com/brake-b...irebird-050106
You can piece it together yourself if cost is a concern; it's C6 Corvette stuff. That's what I'm running and I really like it - it feels like a modern Corvette (which stands to reason lol). It's not at all "too-sensitive" or prone to lockup.

You have to remember the vacuum booster amplifies your leg force by a factor of ~3 (could be more depending on the size/design of the booster). With manual brakes, you'll either have more pedal effort or more pedal travel, and the best compromise is usually some of both. You can compensate for some of this with high mu pads, but that usually comes with other tradeoffs, like lots of dust and noise. You'll feel pad knockback (via longer pedal travel) a lot more with manual brakes since you have to run a smaller master cylinder and a greater pedal ratio to get enough leverage to stop the car comfortably.

Modern brake boosters from performance applications feel great and are very easy to modulate in my opinion - they're a far cry from what these cars came with 50 years ago. In short, if you're after a modern Corvette, Camaro, BMW, Porsche, etc. type feel, go with vacuum assisted brakes. If you want the racecar feel (or your engine doesn't produce vacuum), manual brakes are probably a better choice.


Hyrdoboost is a distant last place for the reasons others have mentioned. I'm not aware of any performance cars that ever left the factory with hydroboost - only trucks, SUVs, and vans. They were never intended for performance applications.

Thanks, Ryan. I think I'm going to start with manual brakes just to see how I like it, but if for some reason I'll want something different, it's nice to see someone recommend power brakes as the next step. I'll take every bit of this into consideration.

[andrewb70]

Thanks, Ryan. I think I'm going to start with manual brakes just to see how I like it, but if for some reason I'll want something different, it's nice to see someone recommend power brakes as the next step. I'll take every bit of this into consideration.

I've had manual brakes for years and am now going with a similar set up as the DSE. Going to use their low angle bracket for the MC.

Andrew

[roguegeek]

I've had manual brakes for years and am now going with a similar set up as the DSE. Going to use their low angle bracket for the MC.

Andrew

I'll be interested in hearing your thoughts after you get some seat time with them.