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    1. #1
      Join Date
      Jun 2018
      Location
      Alamo, CA USA
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      219
      Country Flag: United States

      Removal of front-end...

      I need to start test fitting my engine/trans assembly on my second-gen. The body and paint are finished and assembled. I want to remove the front-end so I can do the engine/trans test fitting to make the process easier. I will be doing the removal of the front-end all by myself. You can see the current state of the front-end in the pic for reference.

      Can someone give me some basic instructions on what order everything should come off? Also, when I reassemble it all, can someone point me to where I can find torque specs for everything?

      Thanks.

      Click image for larger version. 

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      1973 Camaro: LS427/570, T56, Speedtech ExtReme subframe/torque arm


    2. #2
      Join Date
      Nov 2006
      Location
      Mountain Springs, Texas
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      3,760
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      The fact that you’ve never done it before makes me want to advise you against it. So easy to chip the paint when inexperienced and working by yourself. Getting the gaps back can be challenging first time too.

      Sorry, not trying to be a butthead.

      Rough order is:

      Lower valance
      Upper valance
      Fenders with inner fenders attached
      Core support

      Don
      1969 Camaro - LSA 6L90E AME sub/IRS
      1957 Buick Estate Wagon
      1959 El Camino - Ironworks frame
      1956 Cameo - full C5 suspension/drivetrain

    3. #3
      Join Date
      Jun 2018
      Location
      Alamo, CA USA
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      219
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      Quote Originally Posted by dhutton View Post
      The fact that you’ve never done it before makes me want to advise you against it. So easy to chip the paint when inexperienced and working by yourself. Getting the gaps back can be challenging first time too.

      Sorry, not trying to be a butthead.
      If I followed that recommendation, it would literally never happen and that's not a reasonable outcome here. Not criticizing, but that is the reality of my situation. So I'm moving forward, but I will take this concern into account. I've taken the front end off before, but I took it off entirely as a whole and it was with help that I won't have this time around.

      As for the gaps, I'm going to keep a count of how many shims were used where. From your comment, it sounds like I shouldn't just expect the gaps to be the same when it's time for reassembly and shims are all placed back where they were? Sounds like I should expects some level of re-alignment?

      Quote Originally Posted by dhutton View Post
      Rough order is:
      Lower valance
      Upper valance
      Fenders with inner fenders attached
      Core support
      Ok, cool. Hopping to it. Thank you.
      1973 Camaro: LS427/570, T56, Speedtech ExtReme subframe/torque arm

    4. #4
      Join Date
      Aug 2004
      Location
      Austin, Tx
      Posts
      489
      Country Flag: United States
      I'll second what Don said. It's not easy realigning everything. If you have a list that can reach over the fenders, I would install the engine by itself and then install the T56 from below. It's not easy, but it can be done.

      I don't think there are any critical torque specs for sheet metal assembly, I just go "tight enough".

      Good luck!
      Bryan (a.k.a. Carbuff)

      70 Camaro RS Hunk'o'Metal - Previous Project
      71 Firebird Project T.O.W. - New Project

    5. #5
      Join Date
      Aug 2007
      Posts
      408
      I would pull the front sheet metal and install the engine a trans as one. Unless you are the Hulk bench pressing the T56 or balancing it on a trans jack while lining up the throw bearing/clutch splines is no fun at all.
      As suggested above. Lower valance, Upper valance, both fenders and then radiator support. Tape the door to fender edges. Two or three layers. Keep track of the shims but with the weight of the engine and trans in the car gaps may change.
      When you reassemble I like to install the fenders and radiator support loosely, then the hood to get all the gaps even around the hood. Then upper and lower valance. Then tighten up the radiator support bolts.

    6. #6
      Join Date
      Nov 2006
      Location
      Mountain Springs, Texas
      Posts
      3,760
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      I’ve delivered three second gen painted rollers to a member of this forum. He installed the LS engines and T56 without removing the sheet metal. So it can be done.

      Don
      1969 Camaro - LSA 6L90E AME sub/IRS
      1957 Buick Estate Wagon
      1959 El Camino - Ironworks frame
      1956 Cameo - full C5 suspension/drivetrain

    7. #7
      Join Date
      Nov 2006
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      Mountain Springs, Texas
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      I noticed the inner fenders are not installed. You’ll want to bolt them to the fenders before you reinstall the fenders. Removing the wheels will make the installation of the fenders easier.

      Don
      1969 Camaro - LSA 6L90E AME sub/IRS
      1957 Buick Estate Wagon
      1959 El Camino - Ironworks frame
      1956 Cameo - full C5 suspension/drivetrain

    8. #8
      Join Date
      Jun 2018
      Location
      Alamo, CA USA
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      219
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      Quote Originally Posted by 79 Camaro View Post
      I would pull the front sheet metal and install the engine a trans as one. Unless you are the Hulk bench pressing the T56 or balancing it on a trans jack while lining up the throw bearing/clutch splines is no fun at all.
      Yup. I weighed everything you mentioned and decided that that's the route I'm taking. Engine/trans assembly is already done and ready to be lifted in. It's all going through the engine bay.

      Quote Originally Posted by 79 Camaro View Post
      As suggested above. Lower valance, Upper valance, both fenders and then radiator support. Tape the door to fender edges. Two or three layers. Keep track of the shims but with the weight of the engine and trans in the car gaps may change.
      When you reassemble I like to install the fenders and radiator support loosely, then the hood to get all the gaps even around the hood. Then upper and lower valance. Then tighten up the radiator support bolts.
      Lots of good info here that I will apply. Thank you!
      1973 Camaro: LS427/570, T56, Speedtech ExtReme subframe/torque arm

    9. #9
      Join Date
      Jun 2018
      Location
      Alamo, CA USA
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      Quote Originally Posted by dhutton View Post
      I’ve delivered three second gen painted rollers to a member of this forum. He installed the LS engines and T56 without removing the sheet metal. So it can be done.
      Yup. I'm sure it can be done. I've decided on a more conservative route here. I don't mind the extra effort and it ultimately gives me more exposure to the front-end, which will inevitably be coming off and on numerous times in the future.

      Quote Originally Posted by dhutton View Post
      I noticed the inner fenders are not installed. You’ll want to bolt them to the fenders before you reinstall the fenders. Removing the wheels will make the installation of the fenders easier.
      Thanks for the heads-up. Inner fenders aren't on the short-term radar right now. There are none that work with this subframe. I either need to fabricate my own, run nothing, or use the Anvil ones, which come close, but still need to be cut up pretty good to fit.
      1973 Camaro: LS427/570, T56, Speedtech ExtReme subframe/torque arm

    10. #10
      Join Date
      Feb 2019
      Location
      Kankakee IL
      Posts
      270
      Can you pull the front clip as a whole?
      Tracey

    11. #11
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      Apr 2001
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      Quote Originally Posted by Tsaints1115 View Post
      Can you pull the front clip as a whole?
      Not by himself...

      Andrew
      1970 GTO Version 2.0
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    12. #12
      Join Date
      Feb 2019
      Location
      Kankakee IL
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      270
      Quote Originally Posted by andrewb70 View Post
      Not by himself...

      Andrew
      Having had a second gen Camaro and knowing the PIA of aligning all the body parts I think I'd do anything to find a hand to help including paying someone if need be. It'd be cheaper and far less time consuming in the long run.
      Tracey

    13. #13
      Join Date
      Nov 2018
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      321
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      On the bolt torque, when in doubt you can always turn to a chart that gives torque by size.

      https://www.boltdepot.com/fastener-i...ed-Torque.aspx

      In addition to the above, since this is new territory for you I'd recommend taking lots of pictures. When you start on a panel, take pics of the panel from several different angles, including the gaps with a ruler across the gaps at two separate locations for reference, and take pics of any bolts with shims so you can see the orientation and order of shims.

      It's also helpful to make a cardboard bolt holder. Draw the part on the cardboard, then stick the bolt through the cardboard from the approximate location where that bolt was removed. This lets you put the exact same bolt back where it was removed from. Also, when pulling a shimmed bolt tape the shims to the bolt in the same order they were installed on the car. The shims themselves aren't necessarily equal in thickness due to manufacturing tolerances, so putting the same ones back where they were found would be helpful.

      A paint pen can also help, by tracing the bolt's position on the fender you can line the fender back up to the exact point that the bolt pulled down at, helpful when the fender hole is a slot or much larger than the bolt diameter. I normally do this to the hood bolts when I need to remove one as it lets me position the hood exactly where it was when I removed it. I've always just used a Testor model paint pen, but if appearance is important you might see if the local automotive paint shop has a semi-permanent paint pen for just this sort of job.

      Lining things back up can be finicky, but anyone can do it.