Ridetech HQ coilover vs Shockwaves

[srode]

I'm soon to start on my PT 69 Camaro suspension and would like input on shocks. Plan is to use Speedtech Extreme subframe with ridetech 4link and the shockwave system but am wondering if I shouldn't be using the ridetech coil over HQ rebound adjustable shocks instead. I have the 4 link and rear shocks and a 9inch Currie rearend already. I don't want this to ride like a log wagon, want it to handle well to play on twistie backroads and maybe take it to a track day once but not intended to be a primarily track car. The reason I was thinking shockwave is to be able to get over speed bumps, and in and out of my drive and onto my lift without dragging and still have a low driving stance. And of course sitting slammed at a car show looks pretty cool! JR hydraulic lift shocks are a bit beyond what I want to spend. So net, would like thoughts on HQ coil over vs shockwave as far as handling and ride quality in this application. Figure 335/18s in the back and 315/18s in the front.

[ragtop1968rs]

I just finished building a street rod for my wife to cruise around in. I debated back and forth beteeen coil overs and shock waves. I ended up going with the air ride. Big mistake. I love the adjustability and it rides great. But the air leaks are a nightmare. I have one that I’ve pulled out several times to check for leaks, replaced the line and the valves. Still leaks. I would go with the coil overs.

[Josh@Ridetech]

I just finished building a street rod for my wife to cruise around in. I debated back and forth beteeen coil overs and shock waves. I ended up going with the air ride. Big mistake. I love the adjustability and it rides great. But the air leaks are a nightmare. I have one that I’ve pulled out several times to check for leaks, replaced the line and the valves. Still leaks. I would go with the coil overs.

If you can't find a leak at the fittings (check w/ soapy water is the easiest route), it has to be something lodged in one of your valves keeping the plunger from seating down, or you have a worn out plunger that needs some attention. There really aren't any other variables that could cause a leak.

[srode]

I just finished building a street rod for my wife to cruise around in. I debated back and forth beteeen coil overs and shock waves. I ended up going with the air ride. Big mistake. I love the adjustability and it rides great. But the air leaks are a nightmare. I have one that I’ve pulled out several times to check for leaks, replaced the line and the valves. Still leaks. I would go with the coil overs.

Well, that's what I'm concerned about. Were ever able to pinpoint the source(s) of the leak? With soapy water maybe?

[dhutton]

I had success with pneumatic thread sealant. Has to set up overnight but stopped a few leaks that were giving me a hard time. It has to be pneumatic sealant, not generic thread sealant.

Soapy water will find the leaks. Just spray it on all the threaded connections.

Don

[dontlifttoshift]

Bubbles are really good at making bubbles when looking for leaks.

I take off more air suspension than I put on. The problems almost always stem from lazy installs or owners who have no interest in understanding how it works and are unwilling to spend the money to make it idiot proof.

[ragtop1968rs]

Thanks Josh, I’m going to go over everything again like you said.

[Josh@Ridetech]

The problems almost always stem from lazy installs or owners who have no interest in understanding how it works and are unwilling to spend the money to make it idiot proof.

The amount of halfway installs and lack of common sense these days is impressive...

Thanks Josh, I’m going to go over everything again like you said.

Anytime! Let me know if you need anything!

[marolf101x]

Regarding leaks in pneumatic suspension systems:
(sorry to hijack this thread. . . thought this might be useful info for anyone who searches)

First step is to determine the general location of the leak.
-Is the system leaking up or down? (meaning, when the vehicle has set for a while, is the vehicle lower or higher?)

If the vehicle is higher (in both physical height and pressure), there is debris in the valve allowing air to leak from the tank, through the valve, into the air spring.
--This typically happens only on one corner.
--This typically happens very soon after the initial install.
--This is typically a piece of Teflon thread tape or small, hard debris (we used to see weld slag once in a while when we used steel tanks) lodged between the plunger seal and the valve seat.
---Reading the pressure gauges will tell you which corner is affected. A lot of times on a straight axle car if a rear air spring leaks up the entire rear will raise, but only one corner will show an increase in pressure.


If the vehicle is lower (in both physical height and pressure), there is a leak to atmosphere somewhere.

If all corners are lower and all air springs have less pressure than when they started:
--the leak is between either the compressors and the tank, or between the tank and the valves
--if you turn on the ignition and the compressors have to fill the tank, the tank pressure has leaked down below the turn on pressure (135psi on ridetech systems)

Compressor basics:
***Most compressors used in automobiles have a check valve built into the compressor itself (black Thomas compressors used by ridetech), or require an external check valve (ViAir, AMK, etc).
--the check valve is a simple and inexpensive way to ensure pressure from the tank cannot leak back past the compressor

Valve basics:
***Most valves used on pneumatic suspension systems are "air over seat" style valves.
--This means the air pressure in the tank helps keep the valve closed. (if you don't have this feature the pressure spike from a corner hitting a pothole could push air from the air spring hard enough to open the valve and force the air back into the tank or to atmosphere. . .either way, you lose pressure in the air spring.)
***The valves have a small steel spring in the plunger which provide about 50psi holding pressure.
--This means if the tank pressure drops more than 50psi below any corner air spring pressure, pressure from the air spring will push the valve open and the air will flow either to atmosphere, or to the tank



If only one corners is lower and only the corresponding air spring has less pressure than when it started:
--the leak is between the valve and the air spring


Air line and fitting basics:
--all fittings MUST have some sort of sealant added. Some fittings have a red-ish compound on the threads. This is not a sealant, but an anti-galling agent.
--I also prefer a liquid sealant if time allows.

--all air line MUST be cut clean, straight and square.
--If you pull the airline out of the fitting you will most likely have to re-cut the airline before reinsertion.
***The fittings seal the airline via an o-ring which seals against the OD of the airline.
***DOT approved fittings have a small ferrule which slides inside the ID of the airline which keeps the airline from crushing in on itself.
***The airline is held into the fitting by a bent piece of stainless steel that "grabs" the airline. Though this keeps the airline from being pushed out when pressure is applied, it also puts "bite marks" on the airline. If you pull the airline out and push it right back in the o-ring may sit on top of the bite marks and the o-ring will not seal.
--If the airline is not cut straight it won't seal.
--If the airline OD is not smooth it won't seal.

[marolf101x]

Since I wrote WAY too much off topic about air systems I figured I better address the concerns of the OP.

The ridetech coil over and Shockwave use EXACLTY the same shock.
The spring is the only difference.

ridetech coil overs use Hyperco linear coil springs. Meaning each inch of compression adds the same amount of force (so a 300# spring adds 300# each inch it is compressed).

Air springs are progressive by design. Meaning the further it's compressed the more force is added (so like above, it may start at 300# rate, but adds 350# during the first inch of compression, then 400# during the second inch, and so on and so forth.)

I can make a coil spring and air spring vehicle ride quality nearly the same to the point of imperceivably. (Ridetech has a ride quality meter we had developed which we used for exactly this type of testing)
I can make a coil spring and air spring vehicle handle nearly the same.
The big difference is you can get to 85% of both ends with one air spring, where it takes a change of coil springs to achieve the same.

Look at the Street Grip kit. . .it uses progressive coil springs. That allows a comfortable ride quality near ride height (basic driving around town), but feels "sporty" when tossed into a corner as the spring rate increases thereby decreasing body roll compared to a light weight linear spring.

It always comes down to "stuff". How much "stuff" do you want?
Coil springs are very simple, but must be changed to achieve both ends of the spectrum (ride quality and handling).
Air suspension can do both without changing springs, but you have to carry around all the ancillary components (compressor, valves, tank, control system, etc).

[srode]

Wow, thanks for the great explanations both of the air ride system and the comparison between ridetech coil overs. So my take away on handling, is because the airride is progressive, it's going to have less lean on hard cornering than the Ridetech coilovers, sound right? That will likely translate to a firm ride as the shock compresses with load.

So trying to think through how the system works, is it keeping each of the 4 corners at target pressures? If so, I'm trying to understand under hard cornering the system doesn't adjust to compensate - if it's maintaining constant pressure vs a set point, and one side loads up in a hard turn, the other side unloads some - wouldn't the system try to get each back to the target pressure? If it did that, the car would lean more since the side unloading (seeing lower pressure) is the side the turn is towards, and the side loading (seeing higher pressure) is the opposite? Just trying to understand how the system manages situations like this. Does it only adjust pressure at each corner when an input signal comes from the controller to hit one of the setpoints?

I'm obviously missing something or the system wouldn't work well at all based on continuously maintaining pressures like a pressure regulator.

[dontlifttoshift]

The air control system is not active, it does not adjust past hitting a preset at start up or after a button push.

[srode]

The air control system is not active, it does not adjust past hitting a preset at start up or after a button push.

got it, that makes sense. Thanks

[marolf101x]

"So my take away on handling, is because the airride is progressive, it's going to have less lean on hard cornering than the ridetech coilovers, sound right? That will likely translate to a firm ride as the shock compresses with load."

Somewhat correct. . .
IF the coil over has a light spring rate with a lot of preload, the car will roll more than the air spring.
IF the coil over has a higher rate than the air spring does initially, they could roll over the exact same amount, or less.
It all depends on how much weight is transferred to the outside corner, and the spring rate at that corner.

Donny is correct. . .the system does not adjust dynamically. I found that the pneumatic system is WAY too slow to work correctly. Take a slalom for example, by the time the car is flicked around the first cone and the system tried to inflate the outside front corner, the vehicle would be into the second cone by the time the air actually had an affect. . .but by then the affect was the opposite of what was needed at the time (the outside corner, which needed more rate, is the inside corner by the time the air got there, which induced more roll.)