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    Results 1 to 17 of 17
    1. #1
      Join Date
      Aug 2004
      Location
      Melbourne Australia
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      Country Flag: Australia

      Need a higher capacity pump? Which one

      Asking on behalf of a friend. 69 Camaro with 555ci Big Block Chev with Holley Super Sniper fuel injection. Engine specs and dyno sheets attached.

      Is running a modified stock tank with ZL1 Fuel Module, Part No. 13592334.

      There is a fuel pressure fluctuation at WOT, and we believe the fuel pump is unable to supply enough fuel. I believe these are rated to around 650hp, but assume that would be with an efficient LS style set up.

      If this is the problem, hoping there is a "simple" upgrade to fix issue.

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      Roger Andrews

      68 Camaro Convertible LS1 6 speed
      72 C10 Stepside 350 4L60e - oldskool
      71 K5 Blazer

    2. #2
      Join Date
      Jun 2001
      Location
      Newbury Park, CA
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      Pressure fluctuation or pressure drop at WOT?

      Calculations for naturally aspirated engines at WOT typically max out at 0.5BSFC. With that, the ZL1 fue module is good for 780hp @ 13.5v/60psi. See here for details: https://www.vaporworx.com/resources/fds/6-fuel-modules/
      VaporWorx. We Give You Gas http://www.vaporworx.com

    3. #3
      Join Date
      Aug 2004
      Location
      Melbourne Australia
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      97
      Country Flag: Australia
      Quote Originally Posted by CarlC View Post
      Pressure fluctuation or pressure drop at WOT?

      Calculations for naturally aspirated engines at WOT typically max out at 0.5BSFC. With that, the ZL1 fue module is good for 780hp @ 13.5v/60psi. See here for details: https://www.vaporworx.com/resources/fds/6-fuel-modules/
      Hi Carl, here is response from the guy who is assisting with tune of Super Sniper

      "I wouldn't say it was a spike but seems to consistently drop around 10 psi at full throttle ! That's a seperate thing that I think warrants a good inspection of the pump assembly"

      "One data log showed the fuel pressure dropped to 40 psi which is around 20 psi drop - luckily when all 8 injectors worked it had enough to compensate"


      Let me know if you need further information
      thanks
      Roger Andrews

      68 Camaro Convertible LS1 6 speed
      72 C10 Stepside 350 4L60e - oldskool
      71 K5 Blazer

    4. #4
      Join Date
      Jun 2001
      Location
      Newbury Park, CA
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      How is the ZL1 fuel module controlled?

      Assuming the data provided was engine dyno, not chassis:

      Looking at the graphs/photos/tables provided (Thanks!) note that the highest fuel demand at 0.49BSCF is 298#/hr.

      Note on here https://www.vaporworx.com/resources/fds/6-fuel-modules/ that the ZL1 fuel module, even at a quite conservative 12v can supply 309#/hr at 60psi. At 13.5v it's 391#/hr.

      I'm thinkin' something is not quite right with something in the system.
      VaporWorx. We Give You Gas http://www.vaporworx.com

    5. #5
      Join Date
      Mar 2020
      Posts
      199
      Are you running an external regulator & not the pulse width pump control?
      Hopefully not a Corvette filter/regulator, but one with a full return line & mounted near the engine.

      You should also have a -8 fuel line.

      I've seen many Vette filter/regulators with a -6 line crap out before 700rwhp.

    6. #6
      Join Date
      Sep 2016
      Location
      Bakersfield, CA
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      Quote Originally Posted by Lonnies Performance View Post
      Are you running an external regulator & not the pulse width pump control?
      Hopefully not a Corvette filter/regulator, but one with a full return line & mounted near the engine.

      You should also have a -8 fuel line.

      I've seen many Vette filter/regulators with a -6 line crap out before 700rwhp.

      But the ZL1 module only has the size equivalent or a -6 coming out of it anyway, it's 3/8 GM quick connect. Perhaps just the filter/regulator is the bottleneck.
      http://www.TheFOAT.com/92GTA
      1969 Pontiac Firebird
      w/535ci IAII aluminum block, Dailey dry sump, Holley EFI (full road race build). Primer black w/black interior.
      1992 Pontiac Trans Am GTA w/SLP Performance Package. Dark Jade Grey Metallic, grey leather, T-Tops.

    7. #7
      Join Date
      Mar 2020
      Posts
      199
      Quote Originally Posted by anguilla1980 View Post
      But the ZL1 module only has the size equivalent or a -6 coming out of it anyway, it's 3/8 GM quick connect. .
      That does not matter.... You are thinking a single pinch point is the ultimate limitation, which is not correct.
      Every fitting, bend, restriction, etc. all contribute to the pressure/flow loss.

      The restriction created by a 2" fitting is much less than 15' of 3/8" fuel line.

      I have made 1200rwhp through a 3/8" quick connect using a -8 fuel line.

      Quote Originally Posted by anguilla1980 View Post
      Perhaps just the filter/regulator is the bottleneck.
      Not likely... it's usually the restriction of the line & the fact that the filter/regulator is in the rear which cannot compensate for the line restriction.

      A regulator belongs at the engine where the pressure is important, not at the rear of the car.

    8. #8
      Join Date
      Jun 2001
      Location
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      Lonnie brings up good points about line restrictions, pinch points etc.

      We tested line losses by datalogging fuel pressure sensors at a ZL1 fuel module outlet and at the fuel rail. With all of fittings, joints, etc. there are 14 interface changes in the system (AN6 conversions, elbows, hardline fittings, etc.) Goodridge PTFE hoses front and rear, stainless hardline bent in a similar manner to the stock line, all AN6-3/8", care taken to not have restrictive fittings. Nearing max fuel demand for the module there was a 2.2psi loss total. There are no filters in play since the ZL1 has one already.

      We've also flow tested the various C5 FFR types. The best is the Wix but it may not be the function of this regulator that is the issue but how it is used. The ZL1 module is meant to be used in a returnless system. If an external regulator is used there are conditions where the module reservoir will run dry if the fuel level is below the top of the lower reservoir. In other words, for most classic car tanks if the liquid level in the tank is below about 1/2 there is a possibility it will pump the lower reservoir dry. OEM fuel modules prior to the current returnless systems all had the return line go back through the module hat and into the reservoir. The returnless modules do not have this feature. If a mechanically regulated system is used it's better to replace the OEM safety valve (88psi) for a 60psi version and let the fuel return to the reservoir or figure a way to send the externally regulated fuel back into the reservoir.
      Last edited by CarlC; 01-05-2021 at 10:22 PM.
      VaporWorx. We Give You Gas http://www.vaporworx.com

    9. #9
      Join Date
      Jan 2021
      Posts
      2
      Hi Guy's
      New to the forum as of 5 minutes ago and I'm the lucky bugger who's been twisting spanners on this 69 Camaro, as mentioned in previous threads
      there certainly is some fuel pressure inconsistencies and we're not running pwm as earlier asked, admittedly the fuel line layout does have its fair share of bends etc, being -6 in size and wouldn't be surprised if some of those bends narrow down to -4 but that's an area no doubt will be improved upon.

      As mentioned earlier we are running the ZL1 fuel module with internal reg capable of supporting 650hp but the fuel pressure reg was swapped out for
      a 4 Bar unit so as to supply a more consistent 58-60 psi over the 7 barso my question is can this internal reg be bypassed so as to retain the Holley Sniper regulator and in turn go back to running a return line, appreciate any input and look forward to many more discussions with the group.
      Cheers

    10. #10
      Join Date
      Aug 2004
      Location
      Melbourne Australia
      Posts
      97
      Country Flag: Australia
      Quote Originally Posted by Mick0540 View Post
      Hi Guy's
      New to the forum as of 5 minutes ago and I'm the lucky bugger who's been twisting spanners on this 69 Camaro, as mentioned in previous threads
      there certainly is some fuel pressure inconsistencies and we're not running pwm as earlier asked, admittedly the fuel line layout does have its fair share of bends etc, being -6 in size and wouldn't be surprised if some of those bends narrow down to -4 but that's an area no doubt will be improved upon.

      As mentioned earlier we are running the ZL1 fuel module with internal reg capable of supporting 650hp but the fuel pressure reg was swapped out for
      a 4 Bar unit so as to supply a more consistent 58-60 psi over the 7 barso my question is can this internal reg be bypassed so as to retain the Holley Sniper regulator and in turn go back to running a return line, appreciate any input and look forward to many more discussions with the group.
      Cheers

      Mick is fuel module controlled by Sniper?
      Roger Andrews

      68 Camaro Convertible LS1 6 speed
      72 C10 Stepside 350 4L60e - oldskool
      71 K5 Blazer

    11. #11
      Join Date
      Jan 2021
      Posts
      2
      Yes Roger it is.

    12. #12
      Join Date
      Aug 2004
      Location
      Melbourne Australia
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      Country Flag: Australia
      Thanks to everyone for their responses. So reading through, the ZL1 fuel module should be more than capable, and works best in a return less system. If wanting to move to a return system best using a different pump?

      So first step would be to remove fuel module and bench test.
      Does this linked regulator work with the ZL1 module and would it be a worthwhile addition? https://www.vaporworx.com/shop/product/g5fpr/ )I still don't know if any mods were done to fuel module)

      So if that all checks out ok, would the addition of a pwm controller give pump best opportunity to run at most efficient? Is this the one to use, https://www.vaporworx.com/shop/product/pwzl13b-tm/

      If after that still getting pressure drop, replace fuel line with 8an? Is there any reason to run a filter forward of pump?
      Roger Andrews

      68 Camaro Convertible LS1 6 speed
      72 C10 Stepside 350 4L60e - oldskool
      71 K5 Blazer

    13. #13
      Join Date
      Nov 2006
      Location
      Mountain Springs, Texas
      Posts
      4,487
      Country Flag: United States
      I have suspected that the Holley Sniper does not deliver full voltage to the pump based on a couple of other threads I have seen.

      Carl can respond but that is the vaporworx controller I have used with the ZL1 pump.

      Don
      1969 Camaro - LSA 6L90E AME sub/IRS
      1957 Buick Estate Wagon
      1959 El Camino - Ironworks frame
      1956 Cameo - full C5 suspension/drivetrain
      1959 Apache Fleetside

    14. #14
      Join Date
      Jun 2001
      Location
      Newbury Park, CA
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      Hello Roger,

      It is mentioned earlier that a Holley Super Sniper is used, but not the model. There are many different models so the following is sort of generic.

      The ZL1 fuel module requires 16A minimum power at 13.5v. If used, the Sniper system must be able to support this power level plus some safety. Wiring, connections, relay, etc. all must meet this demand. It may not seem like much but near 220watts on a 13.5 volt system, constantly, needs good components, wiring, connections, etc.

      A pwm controller will not fix a bad pump, restrictive fittings, etc. If the fuel pressure is excessively falling with the 60psi converted fitting it will also fall with the PWM controller. The PWM controller acts as an electrical pressure regulation system in order to reduce heat/increase pump life. Under PWM control the power to the pump is reduced by 50% minimum during idle and cruise, the times that send the most heat into the fuel load. No modern OEM high performance car uses a return fuel system. The PWM kit you list is the correct part.

      A 3/8" line is sufficient if there are not overly restrictive sections. As Lonnie mentions above, we too have systems that are well over 750hp supercharged on AN6 hose with AN6 fittings.

      As for changing to an external regulator, that's mentioned in post #8 above:
      "We've also flow tested the various C5 FFR types. The best is the Wix but it may not be the function of this regulator that is the issue but how it is used. The ZL1 module is meant to be used in a returnless system. If an external regulator is used there are conditions where the module reservoir will run dry if the fuel level is below the top of the lower reservoir. In other words, for most classic car tanks if the liquid level in the tank is below about 1/2 there is a possibility it will pump the lower reservoir dry. OEM fuel modules prior to the current returnless systems all had the return line go back through the module hat and into the reservoir. The returnless modules do not have this feature. If a mechanically regulated system is used it's better to replace the OEM safety valve (88psi) for a 60psi version and let the fuel return to the reservoir or figure a way to send the externally regulated fuel back into the reservoir."

      No external filter is needed with late model GM fuel modules.

      Fuel module testing will for sure tell if the module is capable, but it must be done so that the flowrate and pressure can be read. Without both it's of little use.
      Last edited by CarlC; 01-17-2021 at 05:30 PM.
      VaporWorx. We Give You Gas http://www.vaporworx.com

    15. #15
      Join Date
      Aug 2004
      Location
      Melbourne Australia
      Posts
      97
      Country Flag: Australia
      Quote Originally Posted by CarlC View Post
      Hello Roger,

      It is mentioned earlier that a Holley Super Sniper is used, but not the model. There are many different models so the following is sort of generic.

      The ZL1 fuel module requires 16A minimum power at 13.5v. If used, the Sniper system must be able to support this power level plus some safety. Wiring, connections, relay, etc. all must meet this demand. It may not seem like much but near 220watts on a 13.5 volt system, constantly, needs good components, wiring, connections, etc.

      A pwm controller will not fix a bad pump, restrictive fittings, etc. If the fuel pressure is excessively falling with the 60psi converted fitting it will also fall with the PWM controller. The PWM controller acts as an electrical pressure regulation system in order to reduce heat/increase pump life. Under PWM control the power to the pump is reduced by 50% minimum during idle and cruise, the times that send the most heat into the fuel load. No modern OEM high performance car uses a return fuel system. The PWM kit you list is the correct part.

      A 3/8" line is sufficient if there are not overly restrictive sections. As Lonnie mentions above, we too have systems that are well over 750hp supercharged on AN6 hose with AN6 fittings.

      As for changing to an external regulator, that's mentioned in post #8 above:
      "We've also flow tested the various C5 FFR types. The best is the Wix but it may not be the function of this regulator that is the issue but how it is used. The ZL1 module is meant to be used in a returnless system. If an external regulator is used there are conditions where the module reservoir will run dry if the fuel level is below the top of the lower reservoir. In other words, for most classic car tanks if the liquid level in the tank is below about 1/2 there is a possibility it will pump the lower reservoir dry. OEM fuel modules prior to the current returnless systems all had the return line go back through the module hat and into the reservoir. The returnless modules do not have this feature. If a mechanically regulated system is used it's better to replace the OEM safety valve (88psi) for a 60psi version and let the fuel return to the reservoir or figure a way to send the externally regulated fuel back into the reservoir."

      No external filter is needed with late model GM fuel modules.

      Fuel module testing will for sure tell if the module is capable, but it must be done so that the flowrate and pressure can be read. Without both it's of little use.

      Hi Carl, thanks for response

      Sniper is 550-513, https://www.holley.com/products/fuel.../parts/550-513

      This is the pump, but has been switched to a 4 bar regulator, https://www.efihardware.com/products...92334-13592218

      The person who wired fuel system is very well respected here, so I believe it when they say they are seeing a minimum of 13.2 volts at pump

      Current plan, is that my friend, Stephen is going to purchase a PWM for the reasons stated to use one. In the mean time we will remove pump and bench test. Will replace fuel line if necessary and or re-route to make sure it has minimal restrictions.

      The current unit is being replaced as what appears to be a failed ECU, one injector not firing.

      Thanks again for your input
      Roger Andrews

      68 Camaro Convertible LS1 6 speed
      72 C10 Stepside 350 4L60e - oldskool
      71 K5 Blazer

    16. #16
      Join Date
      Jun 2001
      Location
      Newbury Park, CA
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      Thanks for the link to EFI Hardware. I believe it solves the mystery.

      This is a snippet of the photo listed on the EFI Hardware site. Note the color, shape, and the "cap" on top of the rectangular shaped section circled:




      Here is a small, but hopefully shows up well enough, snipped of a Gen5 SS fuel module that shows the same top section as the EFI Hardware module.



      The following is a ZL1 fuel module. Note that not only is there a stainless steel retaining clip, but that the pump is longer and protrudes farther up towards the hat:



      To for sure check, there will be a black crossover line embedded in the bottom surface of the lower reservoir. It is shown in Photo 2 here: https://www.vaporworx.com/resources/fds/6-fuel-modules/

      In short, I believe the reason for falling fuel pressure is that the module you have is the same/equivalent to the Gen5 SS. It's only good for about 600hp naturally aspirated. This all assumes that the photo is the actual part supplied, and not a generic photo. An inspection of the module seems to be in order.

      In one of the earlier posts the maximum fuel demand was 298#/hr. The SS module can produce 300#/hr @ 60psi at the module outlet. However, the following factors come into play:

      1) Pumps never get better over time.
      2) Mechanical regulators will lose 4-5psi from idle to full fuel demand.
      3) There is likely 2-3psi pressure reduction from the outlet of the module to the fuel rail due to frictional/restrictive losses.

      With the 10psi drop mentioned earlier, that falls right into where the SS module capacity is and where the pressure would likely land.
      Last edited by CarlC; 01-18-2021 at 08:25 PM.
      VaporWorx. We Give You Gas http://www.vaporworx.com

    17. #17
      Join Date
      Aug 2004
      Location
      Melbourne Australia
      Posts
      97
      Country Flag: Australia
      Hi Carl we contacted EFI Hardware, the part no for the module is 92509013 which is for our Holden supercharged 6.2l model



      When I look on line I can find a numerous US suppliers
      https://paceperformance.com/i-238356...el-sender.html

      Is it possibly the same as 19303293, but without sender?
      https://paceperformance.com/i-776921...fuel-pump.html

      EFI Hardware are happy for us to pull pump and have bench tested.

      thanks again
      Roger Andrews

      68 Camaro Convertible LS1 6 speed
      72 C10 Stepside 350 4L60e - oldskool
      71 K5 Blazer






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