Torque Arm vs 4-Link

[stab6902]

If I were the OP, the only rear suspension I would be considering would be the DSE QuadaLink.

To the OP, I think this is about the closest you'll get to a consensus - so far two of us, with nothing to sell you, are recommending the DSE QuadraLink.

[Mark@lateral-dynamics]

Using that logic, your "3 link" is actually a "4 link."

This is technically correct.

For the record, I have NOTHING against DSE, Kyle, or Mark. I have met both of them and we have always been cordial, have had some excellent technical communications with Mark in particular though it was many years ago. Kyle has built an empire, and I am happy for he and his team, they really created a lot of opportunity for others, such as our operation, because the hobby has grown so fast and so large. They make exceptional quality products, and we use a lot of their stuff on our own cars (just not suspension). Likewise, I have nothing against anyone's opinion, but I am a technologist and don't pull punches when challenging opinions that are in direct conflict with fact. Can't help it, it is just how I am wired.

There are two very prominent 69 Camaro's in So Cal that regularly compete in the various auto-x and USCA events. Both of them started out with Parallel 4 Link - with PHB rear suspensions (rubber bushings). Years of experience running those setups. Both of them, within the last few years went with completely different setups, and both of them got a lot faster. One of them won the whole enchilada at the optima event. The other took second place at a highly touted invitational shootout, second only to a brutally fast mega build. These are facts. Now, not everyone competes at this level, and that is completely fine, and again, pretty much any aftermarket system will be a huge improvement over any factory style setup. And, as one can see, there is present even here, significant brand loyalty. I am merely trying to promote our brand, is that so bad?

Be well.

[dhutton]

I think the truth is that most folks are unable to out drive their car, at least I am. That being said I love these tech discussions.

Don

[dontlifttoshift]

Promote away. The flip side of that is you have to support your assertation..... or facts.

Read the OP and tell me what your 3 link does better than the Quadralink for that application.

For the record, I like you and your product and I believe this place and the hobby/industry is better with you in it. Your posts were some that I paid attention to when I started here.

I am partial to DSE parts but my parts selections and recommendations are still very application/end user specific.

[dontlifttoshift]

i think the truth is that most folks are unable to out drive their car,

don

qft

[stab6902]

Promote away. The flip side of that is you have to support your assertation..... or facts.

Read the OP and tell me what your 3 link does better than the Quadralink for that application.

For the record, I like you and your product and I believe this place and the hobby/industry is better with you in it.

I'm totally with you on all three points.

95%+ of pro-touring enthusiasts don't track their cars - just like relatively few people track their their Vettes, Porsches, etc. As such, trading a tiny bit of ultimate performance for ride comfort, packaging, and durability is well worth it.

By the way, I have no affiliation with DSE (or any other aftermarket company), but as evidenced by their growth, they know the market.

[Mark@lateral-dynamics]

Heading out for a wedding, so here are the main attributes:

• Easier to install than brand D. No need to hack out the better part of the trunk.
• Fully adjustable, if you want to play with the geometry, you can. Roll center height, anti-squat/lift, roll axis, etc, broadest adjustment range in the industry - by far. Also simple to set and forget with exceptional all around performance and comfort.
• TONS of room for tailpipes.
• Watt's Link creates ZERO roll center migration, PHB's do not (granted, migration is not large, but still).
• Zero bind beyond the wildest excursion of suspension travel. I'll snap a pic this weekend, you could go rock crawling with the amount of bind free articulation.
• Shock agnostic, you go with any suitable length shock. For the very best value of performance to dollar, Viking Triple's are our recommendation. JRI makes an excellent shock, but there are lots of other excellent options out there that we don't tie you down to.
• Sway bar agnostic, practically any OEM style unit will work.
• Very cool appearance. Style points for D and E in the USCA events.
• Made in USA, supports our local economy with virtually all components sourced within 50 miles of our So Cal location. Veteran owned - proudly.
• "Touring" version offers extremely capable rubber bushings (main links) to knock down NVH, while still preserving full bind free articulation.
• Considering the extra cost of installation and the price of the actual kit, we come out ahead in dollars/time spent.
• And so on. You can get more details from our "Introduction" thread within this forum.

I'd like to pose the question back at you guys. WHY, specifically, is the DSE Quadralink better than the Lateral Dynamics Next Generation 3-Link? In fairness, DSE has an extremely large and loyal following which they can be proud of. We do not. So, when we post here or other places, we are immediately outnumbered by the "competition." Respectfully, DSE's office supply budget is probably larger than our entire product development budget, but I challenge you to find an operation that does more, with the same or less available resources. Not complaining, but when you put your entire life into something, work extremely hard and produce a superior product - only to get dumped on by naysayers..... well no one said it was fair. And that's okay.

In the end, we produce an excellent option for folks just like the OP, and many others.

Thanks, and be well.

[dontlifttoshift]

Easier to install than brand D. No need to hack out the better part of the trunk.

I mean, at least you get metal to close it out with. That's dead space anyways and it's kind of nice to have it all flat and stuff when you are done.

Fully adjustable, if you want to play with the geometry, you can. Roll center height, anti-squat/lift, roll axis, etc, broadest adjustment range in the industry - by far. Also simple to set and forget with exceptional all around performance and comfort.

Cool!

TONS of room for tailpipes.

Can I buy an off the shelf exhaust kit to bolt on?

Watt's Link creates ZERO roll center migration, PHB's do not (granted, migration is not large, but still).

True, but as noted, minutia.....especially for street car.

Zero bind beyond the wildest excursion of suspension travel. I'll snap a pic this weekend, you could go rock crawling with the amount of bind free articulation.

Cool!.....but 5* is typically max.

Shock agnostic, you go with any suitable length shock. For the very best value of performance to dollar, Viking Triple's are our recommendation. JRI makes an excellent shock, but there are lots of other excellent options out there that we don't tie you down to.

The single shear lower mounts can be problematic when the shocks bottom.

Sway bar agnostic, practically any OEM style unit will work.

Ability to use existing parts is a plus.

Very cool appearance. Style points for D and E in the USCA events.

Debatable. Looks are subjective and not like D&E matters in this case.

Made in USA, supports our local economy with virtually all components sourced within 50 miles of our So Cal location. Veteran owned - proudly.

Well done and Thank You!

"Touring" version offers extremely capable rubber bushings (main links) to knock down NVH, while still preserving full bind free articulation.

Still 4 sphericals in the watts though?

Considering the extra cost of installation and the price of the actual kit, we come out ahead in dollars/time spent.

Can't argue that.

I'd like to pose the question back at you guys. WHY, specifically, is the DSE Quadralink better than the Lateral Dynamics Next Generation 3-Link?

Rubber at all link connections, sphericals only on the shocks. Quiet for life and zero maintenance.

Completely closes out all protrusions into the cabin and works with slightly modified back seat.

PHB is the ultimate in simplicity. I will admit that I think their roll center is too high.

Personal experience with the product has been positive and I know that after properly installed I will never have to think about it again.

I can be reasonably sure that Detroit Speed will answer the phone in 5 years.

In fairness, DSE has an extremely large and loyal following which they can be proud of. We do not. So, when we post here or other places, we are immediately outnumbered by the "competition." Respectfully, DSE's office supply budget is probably larger than our entire product development budget, but I challenge you to find an operation that does more, with the same or less available resources. Not complaining, but when you put your entire life into something, work extremely hard and produce a superior product - only to get dumped on by naysayers..... well no one said it was fair. And that's okay.

Really? No one is dragging you and I have no interest in doing so. I made a recommendation as requested by the original poster. The critiques of your product in this post are per your request.

Like I said, I like the product. Have a good time at the wedding!

[stab6902]

WHY, specifically, is the DSE Quadralink better than the Lateral Dynamics Next Generation 3-Link?

To start, let me reiterate that I think the DSE QuadraLink is better for the OP's application. As a reminder, he prioritized ride comfort for a car only driven on the street. And, I'm comparing the QuadraLink to the all heim joint 3-link pictured in your other thread. From what I gather, your rubber bushing "touring" version is still in development.

Here's why I'd recommend the QuadraLink for anything other than a race application:

• Rubber bushings - as I've said a couple times now, these are important for reducing NVH and impact harshness. Additionally, they're more durable in a street application. I don't like the idea of road grit, water, etc getting into the spherical bearing and creating wear/noisy slop. In my mind a good street suspension has zero heim joints.
• OEM quality appearance and integration - this one is mostly preference, but the DSE system looks more tidy and "factory" to me, as opposed to your more aftermarket/race look. I'm personally not a fan of the "shift boot" on your upper link.
• Packaging - again, the DSE just looks cleaner and more compact, and it appears to have more room for mufflers and tailpipes.
• Rear seat - you can use the factory rear seat with the DSE system. Not sure about your setup, but it looks like some modification would be necessary.
• Documentation - DSE has a well documented installation manual, videos, etc. Not sure where you're at with that.
• Known quantity factor - lots of people are running the DSE system and know how to set it up, good brand recognition/resale value, etc.
• "Matching" front suspension available - sounds like you have this in the works too.

For these reasons the DSE system gets my nod at the moment. Maybe that will change once your "touring" version is ready to ship.

If you're wondering, here's my wish list for the "touring version":

• Rubber bushings everywhere - the MetalCloak bushings look interesting; might take some R&D to get the durometer just right
• Panhard bar rather than watts link - a 43" long panhard bar moving +/- 2" results in less than 0.1" lateral movement. That's good enough for me.
• Fully enclosed top link rather than shift boot
• Make as much of it bolt on as possible - BMR and ridetech do a good job of this, and lots of people would prefer to use their existing axle
• Lower price - reasonable expectation since you'd be reusing the stock type axle and a panhard bar

Again, I'm in no way trying to knock your product and I think it's great for a race application. I have a lot of respect for you and your company. Not sure if it comes through, but I'm truly trying to be honest and helpful here.

[stab6902]

The critiques of your product in this post are per your request.

You must be a faster typer than me, Donny. We're on the same wavelength.

[AEH]

Wow. Some excellent information and responses here. When I made My original post I neglected to Subscribe to it and when I came back to check it it was gone. I realize I posted in the wrong place and the moderator must have moved it but I just assumed it got deleted. Still searching for answers I found it again this morning.

I realize this is just another "how can I have my cake and eat it too thread" but the challenge is REAL for those of us who don't have years of experience with suspension design and a vast experience base to draw from. You hope to only do this once and not screw it up. As an Example: Read the classifieds and see how many jeeps you see with "all brand new wheels, tires and a new 6" lift". Why would someone spend $10,000 on new parts and then just sell their Jeep. Cause now drives like crap. A bad combination of good parts. I'm trying not the be that guy, lol.


When I was a kid and you wanted to figure how to do something you had to find and expert. If you couldn't find an expert, you went to the library and started going through the "Popular Mechanics Magazines". The Internet is an incredible tool and has made access to information so prevalent the question is now more often, "why" instead of "how.

I had narrowed my selection originally down to Two. Either the DSE 4-Link or the Speedtech Torque Arm. I originally didn't post brands because I hoped the discussion to be about differences in the two technology and not any one brand over another.

I chose the DSE over the other available 4 links because of the geometry. Instead of constraining the geometry of the upper links to the available space, they "increased" the space to fit the geometry with the upper link pockets. I also like the fact that they raise the upper shock mount at or above the original sheet metal by extending the frame rail connectors into the interior of the trunk. The higher the top mounts, the less the bottom mount hangs down. My only real hesitation with the DSE is my limited experience with 4 links. Anything I ever rode in, except production based vehicles, was loud and harsh. In fairness, they weren't built to ride in, just to go fast, but still my experience is limited.

In the torque arm category I liked the Speed Tech. My major hangup with it is the fact that the Torque arm hangs down below the 3rd member all the way from the axle to the center of the car. It may all be in my mind and not be an issue at all but I don't want to be dragging on speed bumps. Also the aforementioned X-Pipe limitations.

I do appreciate all the advice and hope to see more.
Mike

[Rod]

fun thread....

[chevelletiger]

^^ Agree 100% Rod.

[Vimes]

Wow, did this snowball right on down the hill.

The best part for the job will always depend upon the job. Let's remember what the OP was looking for.

"My intent for the car is to build a very nice cruiser we can drive anywhere we want to go and still enjoy the ride. I don't want to be cussing it after 8 hours or have to argue with the wife whether or not we take the Camaro on the next trip. I realize everything is a compromise but I want all the performance I can get without sacrificing ride. I will never track the car and it'll never see the drag strip. I want it to be fast and capable and there will be times I'll push it, but I'm not trying to win any titles or even compete. It's just gonna be My Car. I'll get the best seats I can find, use all the sound dampening and Insulation I can get in it and probably soften whatever suspension I end up with."

Based on his stated requirements, that's a very easy decision, torque arm. A 4-link is primarily a drag racing suspension, and it was not designed with canyon carving in mind so would probably not be the best for spirited driving. A torque arm is mostly bolt-in with very little welding required, may at most require that his exhaust be moved a little, and will give him the ride and all-around street performance he's looking for. And, as he wants it for when he and the wife travel, the wife would likely not find the car hard to handle should she get behind the wheel. That BMR setup looked pretty nice.

Oh, and hey - on the seats, look into "suspension seats." If they can let guys jump 200ft at 100MPH running desert dunes without driving their a&&holes through their necks, they should be very comfortable on the street. These are the ones I plan to run in my truck if I can ever get my project off the ground. I sat in one at a shop and was very impressed at how comfortable they were, and the wife (who had a spinal fusion) also found them very comfortable on her back.

[CSG]

vimes. I assume your truck is not an off-road vehicle? Lots of broken backs from suspension seats in Offroad race trucks, I only mention it because I would not want your wife injured but if it’s a street vehicle then by all means carry on.

I like Mark’s 3 link but his statement about 4 links handling like crap rubbed me a bit. I have modeled a lot of 4 links and yes of course there is some bind but not always that much. I’ve also set pole a bunch of times with one of those crappy handling converging 4 links with a panhard bar...

I want to add to this that I do prefer 3 links and torque arms and have had all 3 designs on the same car, but the statement came off to me as knocking the 4 link much more that it really shows up in the real world.

[Rod]

A 4-link is primarily a drag racing suspension, and it was not designed with canyon carving in mind so would probably not be the best for spirited driving.

ha ha ha ha ha ha that's the funnest thing I ever heard.... leaf spring, 3 link, 4 link, torque arm, z-link, IRS, all do the same thing, how they get there is what makes them different, how the geometry is completed and the platform they are installed on that affects the result...

[Vimes]

vimes. I assume your truck is not an off-road vehicle? Lots of broken backs from suspension seats in Offroad race trucks, I only mention it because I would not want your wife injured but if it’s a street vehicle then by all means carry on.

Yeah, I'm doing a street machine. Personally I think those guys that go dune cruising are nuts because the risk/reward formula is weighted way, way too far in the risk category, but the premise holds about the seats. If they can handle extreme off-roading, even if some of the more spectacular jumps result in spine damage, they should do a fine job of cushioning bumps on the street. Plus, they actually are pretty comfortable to sit in.

ha ha ha ha ha ha that's the funnest thing I ever heard.... leaf spring, 3 link, 4 link, torque arm, z-link, IRS, all do the same thing, how they get there is what makes them different, how the geometry is completed and the platform they are installed on that affects the result...

So your claim is that no suspension has compromises, and all do an equal job at everything?

[Mark@lateral-dynamics]

I like Mark’s 3 link but his statement about 4 links handling like crap rubbed me a bit. I have modeled a lot of 4 links and yes of course there is some bind but not always that much. I’ve also set pole a bunch of times with one of those crappy handling converging 4 links with a panhard bar...

Far enough, but let me temper the statement a bit. I always default to solid type bushings when I look at a setup. Years back, a buddy had an old school four link with PHB that was setup as a pro street car. When he put pro touring type wheels and tires, the car became basically undriveable. The negative issues with the overall setup was masked by the previous really tall, loose sidewall tires. Solution in his case was a simple as removing one of the upper links, transformed the car completely with no other changes, and it got better from there with additional tuning. This car was all rod ends and it couldn't easily be changed, and didn't need to in the end. So, that was what was happening in my brain and translated to my statement. Hence, this is also why I made the statement about the rubber bushings. Fair?

[Mark@lateral-dynamics]

@ Donny and Ryan: THANK YOU!!!! for the feedback. Greatly appreciated. Yes, we still have some items to finish up such as the install instructions, indeed the UCA area WILL be covered with a sheet metal cover, etc. The Duroflex bushing are already proven, we already have thousands of miles on them personally. Ironically, on applications that are four links with PHB'S!

Cheer, and again, thanks.

[Rod]

So your claim is that no suspension has compromises, and all do an equal job at everything?

nope that's what you said... what I said is

ha ha ha ha ha ha that's the funnest thing I ever heard.... leaf spring, 3 link, 4 link, torque arm, z-link, IRS, all do the same thing, how they get there is what makes them different, how the geometry is completed and the platform they are installed on that affects the result...

rear suspension has 3 basic functions 1) weight control (hold the car up) 2) Lateral location 3) axel location

and to answer that now asked question.. they are all a compromise .......