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  1. #1
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    Driving Critiques

    Hello All,

    I have been focusing heavily on driving improvement this year. Would love to tap into the huge talent base we have here @ PT.

    Below are links to videos of some of my autocross runs this year. Please watch them and let me know what I did well and how I can improve.

    SCCA KYSCCA @ NCM: https://youtu.be/Yu5EgJxH_7k



    SCCA ETRSCCA @ Smokies Stadium: https://youtu.be/DmHalrSqN6k

    SCCA ETRSCCA @ Bristol Motor Speedway: https://youtu.be/OQcu2xM2zko

    SCCA CRSCCS @ Dade County HS Trenton, GA: https://youtu.be/g3PCvbclDA0

    Thank you for your time.
    Electrical/Mechanical Engineer
    1968 Camaro RS - Flat Black


  2. #2
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    The one thing I would suggest is working on your hands. You are crossing your hands over each other which limits how quickly you can make the next input.

    You need to Shuffle your hands

    https://youtu.be/pS3ECPrplKo

    BMR SUSPENSION
    T.C. Davis




    813-986-9302 Phone
    813-986-8055 Fax
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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by BMR Sales View Post
    The one thing I would suggest is working on your hands. You are crossing your hands over each other which limits how quickly you can make the next input.

    You need to Shuffle your hands

    https://youtu.be/pS3ECPrplKo
    Thank T.C. I try to do the shuffle, but I find sometimes I forget to. In this video you can see it clearly, most times I shuffle but there's a couple of corners I end up crossing over.

    https://youtu.be/g3PCvbclDA0

    Thank you. Feel free to add anything else you see.

    Ryan
    Electrical/Mechanical Engineer
    1968 Camaro RS - Flat Black

  4. #4
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    The Shuffle once you start doing it in everyday driving becomes natural. It's equally important on the Street (or racing) when you driving a car with Air Bags - if your Arms are crossed up and an Air Bag goes off, you will have Hand, wrist, elbow or shoulder injuries

    BMR SUSPENSION
    T.C. Davis




    813-986-9302 Phone
    813-986-8055 Fax
    [email protected]
    www.BMRSuspension.com
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  5. #5
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    I'll give you my initial reactions as I watch your videos. I'll throw a caveat in first though. When critiquing video I have a much easier time when I've driven the course. Also, having really good audio to know when your are getting on and off the gas helps too which some of your videos I had trouble being sure.

    SCCA KYSCCA @ NCM: https://youtu.be/Yu5EgJxH_7k

    Line choice and car control seem okay. Based primarily on the timing of tire squeal the car appears to push in places. What tires are you running? If the car is balanced and you are pushing that early in corners then typically you need to slow down a tad. What front suspension and alignment?

    SCCA ETRSCCA @ Smokies Stadium: https://youtu.be/DmHalrSqN6k

    0:28 you were on the brakes too deep into the corner and caused the front end to push. Good job on unwinding the wheel when you encountered it. Getting off the brakes a little earlier and allowing the car to settle and roll through the corner should allow you to keep a higher average speed through the whole corner.
    0:37 these kinds of corner exit bobbles where you correct and lift kill your time. All of us muscle car guys do this to some degree or another and almost everyone I ride with would be faster reducing how often they do it. Finding ways to feed the gas in earlier and more gradually is the name of the game.
    0:42 you were tight and tidy on the two cones on the left but late getting on the gas towards the finish. Not having driven that course I would of though you would of been able to get on the gas earlier in a fast section like that.

    I saw the comments about shuffle steer before watching your video. In this video it appears to me like you and I have very similar steering input styles. Aka keeping hands at 9 and 3 for all but the tightest corners and then picking up only the leading hand (aka picking up the left hand on a left hand corner). As someone who got told to change and learn shuffle steer I'm here to say you don't have to. I saw some videos of some very fast championship winning drivers not shuffle steering and after a year of shuffle steering I went back to crossing arms. I now view the shuffle steer vs crossed arms thing similar to left foot braking vs right foot. If you interview every national champion SCCA autocrosser in a given year about half will be left food brakers and half will be right. In other words both work well. One thing though, whichever steering you need to be able to always turn the wheel far enough to get the right line. I recently rode with someone who does crossed arms steering and wasn't able to turn tight enough and should have shuffled their arms to make the turn tighter. And you need to be able to unwind and go back to straight smoothly. The bobble at 0:37 above appears to also be in part due to unwinding the wheel a little too far.

    Feel free to watch any of the recent autocross episodes on my YouTube channel to see how I use my hands.

    SCCA ETRSCCA @ Bristol Motor Speedway: https://youtu.be/OQcu2xM2zko

    0:24 braking too late again. When I was learning I was also given the you brake too late advice. One thing that really helped me was focusing less on when I apply the brakes and more on when I release the brakes. When I instruct I know when someone is braking too late based on what's happening at the end of the brake zone. Here you were gain trying to turn the car at the end of your brake zone. The car turns better when it's not upset. This turn was also followed up by a pretty fast straightish section. I would try to roll into the throttle on that exit sooner.

    The second half of this course and again at 0:43 makes me wonder again if you car needs suspension tuning or better tires. It appears to push in several places.

    SCCA CRSCCS @ Dade County HS Trenton, GA: https://youtu.be/g3PCvbclDA0

    0:12 this is a good example of shuffling your hands when you need too.
    0:24 & 0:54ish this area feels like you are doing a bit of point and shoot. Not having driven that course I would of thought you could roll on the gas on the exit sooner even if it pushed you out a little bit (not a lot!).

    Hope that helps!
    Please Subscribe to the AutoXandTrack YouTube Channel

    Autocross and track blog about running autocross and track events with pro touring cars

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chad-1stGen View Post
    What tires are you running? If the car is balanced and you are pushing that early in corners then typically you need to slow down a tad. What front suspension and alignment?
    Chad,
    I am very glad you contributed to this thread, was really hoping I'd get to see your thoughts. Tires are 275/35R18 BFG Rival S 1.5's. Date codes mid 2019. Suspension is a bit of a longer explinantion so I'll start with alignment.

    The alignment varied throughout these videos. Started with -1.5 camber, +6.0 castor, 0 toe. Now I am running -2.0 Camber, +6.0 castor, 1/8" toe out (about -0.2). The videos are in order chronologically. Suspension also varied throughout the course of these videos albeit the changes were "slight" one could say.

    Front Suspension: Stock subframe, SPC UCA w/ 0.9" taller Howe UBJ, mild guldstrand mod (performed after the bristol champ tour in July), SPC LCA, DSE (eaton detroit) 600 lb/in springs, Helwig 1-1/8" hollow front ARB, Chassisworks "z/28" steering arms, Howe qwik bump outer tie rod ends, 670 series steering gear. RC height approx 2-2.5" above ground.

    Rear Suspension: Stock subframe/unibody, DSE (eaton detroit) 175 lb/in leaf springs, FAYS2 Watts link, RC height 13.5" above ground, helwig 3/4" hollow rear ARB at max stiff setting, poly bushing in leaf eyes and in rear frame eyes.

    I really appreciate the pointed advice, it makes it very easy to understand what you are referencing. I am aware of most of the things you have highlighted, especially late to come off the brakes and late to get on the throttle.

    The car was on 245/45R17 RE-71Rs last season. To date I have about 7 events on the 275s. In addition to that I have been tweaking the setup continuously. I am definitely not used to what the car is capable of. And the car gets better each event ( I hope I do too).

    This is a thread started to address the horrible understeer at the Bristol Champ tour in JUL .I don't have a vid of it on YouTube yet but I will post them.

    https://www.pro-touring.com/threads/...r-Distribution
    Electrical/Mechanical Engineer
    1968 Camaro RS - Flat Black

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chad-1stGen View Post
    SCCA ETRSCCA @ Smokies Stadium: https://youtu.be/DmHalrSqN6k

    0:28 you were on the brakes too deep into the corner and caused the front end to push. Good job on unwinding the wheel when you encountered it. Getting off the brakes a little earlier and allowing the car to settle and roll through the corner should allow you to keep a higher average speed through the whole corner.
    0:37 these kinds of corner exit bobbles where you correct and lift kill your time. All of us muscle car guys do this to some degree or another and almost everyone I ride with would be faster reducing how often they do it. Finding ways to feed the gas in earlier and more gradually is the name of the game.
    0:42 you were tight and tidy on the two cones on the left but late getting on the gas towards the finish. Not having driven that course I would of though you would of been able to get on the gas earlier in a fast section like that.
    Yes. Continuing to work on brake and throttle application.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chad-1stGen View Post
    I saw the comments about shuffle steer before watching your video. In this video it appears to me like you and I have very similar steering input styles. Aka keeping hands at 9 and 3 for all but the tightest corners and then picking up only the leading hand (aka picking up the left hand on a left hand corner). As someone who got told to change and learn shuffle steer I'm here to say you don't have to. I saw some videos of some very fast championship winning drivers not shuffle steering and after a year of shuffle steering I went back to crossing arms. I now view the shuffle steer vs crossed arms thing similar to left foot braking vs right foot. If you interview every national champion SCCA autocrosser in a given year about half will be left food brakers and half will be right. In other words both work well. One thing though, whichever steering you need to be able to always turn the wheel far enough to get the right line. I recently rode with someone who does crossed arms steering and wasn't able to turn tight enough and should have shuffled their arms to make the turn tighter. And you need to be able to unwind and go back to straight smoothly. The bobble at 0:37 above appears to also be in part due to unwinding the wheel a little too far.
    I agree. I never really been a shuffler unless the turn is super tight or the car has very slow steering. The left vs right foot braking is a good analogy too. I have found RF braking works better for me in the Camaro bu tLF is better in cars with better pedal arrangements.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chad-1stGen View Post
    SCCA ETRSCCA @ Bristol Motor Speedway: https://youtu.be/OQcu2xM2zko

    0:24 braking too late again. When I was learning I was also given the you brake too late advice. One thing that really helped me was focusing less on when I apply the brakes and more on when I release the brakes. When I instruct I know when someone is braking too late based on what's happening at the end of the brake zone. Here you were gain trying to turn the car at the end of your brake zone. The car turns better when it's not upset. This turn was also followed up by a pretty fast straightish section. I would try to roll into the throttle on that exit sooner.

    The second half of this course and again at 0:43 makes me wonder again if you car needs suspension tuning or better tires. It appears to push in several places.
    The car has had an understeer problem ever since the Watts link and bigger tires. The Watts really tightened the car up alot, really too much, especially on corner entry. That being said I think the pushing is 1/2 driver, 1/2 setup. I tend to drag the brakes because I am fearful of locking up and destroying a $300 tire. I have gotten better with this but still need to work on it.

    On 245s w/ no Watts the car loved to oversteer on corner entry. It also loved to lock up tires. I was running about -3 of camber then. The lockup would annihilate tires. The lower camber setting and more rubber has helped with this.

    The thread I mentioned in the above post is directly related to handling the understeer issue. I would ask you to read it and let me know what your thoughts are if you have time. To me it is a very interesting discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chad-1stGen View Post
    SCCA CRSCCS @ Dade County HS Trenton, GA: https://youtu.be/g3PCvbclDA0

    0:12 this is a good example of shuffling your hands when you need too.
    0:24 & 0:54ish this area feels like you are doing a bit of point and shoot. Not having driven that course I would of thought you could roll on the gas on the exit sooner even if it pushed you out a little bit (not a lot!).

    Hope that helps!
    This was a very tight course as you can see. Right before this event, in an effort to get more rear roll stiffness and loosen the car up, I made a set of rear ARB endlinks that used rod ends as opposed the endlinks I had previously which used poly bushings. This did a number to help reduce understeer, but it did reduce the ability to get on the power early in very tight corners.

    The run in this video was my fastest mainly because I did not spin the tires coming out of the corner in 0:24 and 0:54. You can barely hear the rear tires talking in alot of the corners at exit. I think I was pretty dang close to the limit of what the car was capable of in those corners.

    I tried alot of different lines in an attempt to see what was faster: tight/tidy vs. wider and wilder. Tight and tidy won most of the time it seemed. I don't have SoloStorm or any other datalogging package, but it is on the list. SHould help to quickly ascertain the fastest sections so I can stich them together into a great run.

    Thanks again for all of your help, I really appreciate it.
    Electrical/Mechanical Engineer
    1968 Camaro RS - Flat Black

  8. #8
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    Nov 2014
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    Alcoa, TN
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sleeper68 View Post
    This is a thread started to address the horrible understeer at the Bristol Champ tour in JUL .I don't have a vid of it on YouTube yet but I will post them.

    https://www.pro-touring.com/threads/...r-Distribution

    Setup: -1.5 Camber +6.0 Castor, 0" toe, 1" front RC height, 12.5" rear RC height referenced to ground respectively.
    Another video from an even at BMS in June:
    https://youtu.be/SUNXk-FEAls

    Right after the local Bristol event in June I decided to try out more camber gain (from -0.4/in camber/bump travel to -0.8/in) with a static camber setting of -1.5 instead of the -3 static I ran on 245s. The improved camber gain curve was accomplished by performing a mild guldstrand mod. This is in addition to the 0.9" tall UBJ. Camber gain and roll center height now on par with a AFX spindle 1st gen.

    The first and only event with this setup was the Bristol Champ Tour in July 2020.

    Setup: -1.5 Camber +6.0 Castor, 0" toe, 2.125" front RC height, 12.5" rear RC height referenced to ground respectively.
    Champ Tour Videos:
    https://youtu.be/1obFTeUApC0
    https://youtu.be/j-4csCwI_zU

    Setup: -2.0 Camber +6.0 Castor, 0" toe, 2.125" front RC height, 13.5" rear RC height referenced to ground respectively.
    Video:
    https://youtu.be/Yu5EgJxH_7k

    Setup: -2.0 Camber +6.0 Castor, 1/8" toe out, 2.125" front RC height, 13.5" rear RC height referenced to ground respectively.
    Video:
    https://youtu.be/OQcu2xM2zko

    Setup: -2.0 Camber +6.0 Castor, 1/8" toe out, 2.125" front RC height, 13.5" rear RC height referenced to ground respectively with new rear sway bar endlinks I made to eliminate the poly bushings and hopefully stiffen up the rear.
    Video:
    https://youtu.be/g3PCvbclDA0
    Electrical/Mechanical Engineer
    1968 Camaro RS - Flat Black

  9. #9
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    Since the Camaro is down with a broken transmission, I took the daily driver out to the last local event of the year. Car did great considering the tires it is on (235/35R18 Firestone Indy 500, 340treadwear). Ended up 0.695 off of first in 4th place against a bunch of turbo miatas.

    https://youtu.be/ZaPDOrNcqjg
    Electrical/Mechanical Engineer
    1968 Camaro RS - Flat Black