2020 SCCA CAM-T Allowed Cars

[SSLance]

There are times...and I know old schoolers will skoff at this...but having more weight on a smaller tire will actually give one MORE grip instead of less.

I've been racing lighter and fatter tire'd cars with my fat pig on small tires for a long time, and like Donny, it gives me great satisfaction to beat them.

Most of the guys with these older cars that don't want to cut them up, also don't care about a couple hundred pounds. We are mostly talking about 3500# cars with 55-57% weight on the nose and big horsepower. A lot of professional autocrosser rules and setups just don't work in this scenario.

[dontlifttoshift]

I just don't think the weight disparity is an issue. Of course the math will show that it matters, conventional theory says that it matters, but in reality......it hasn't mattered. Sure my car would be faster if weighed the same as the Dumpster Fire but I still wouldn't be able to drive around him. Until CAM gets to a point where we have 10 cars fully prepped to the rules with 10 very good drivers behind the wheel, 300 lbs won't make a significant difference. So lets keep it simple and fun.

The driver makes the most significant difference. Then tires and long after that, everything else. It took me a lot of time and money to learn that hard lesson but I didn't take seconds off my time until I started learning to drive.

[landstuhltaylor]

I just don't think the weight disparity is an issue. Of course the math will show that it matters, conventional theory says that it matters, but in reality......it hasn't mattered. Sure my car would be faster if weighed the same as the Dumpster Fire but I still wouldn't be able to drive around him. Until CAM gets to a point where we have 10 cars fully prepped to the rules with 10 very good drivers behind the wheel, 300 lbs won't make a significant difference. So lets keep it simple and fun.

The driver makes the most significant difference. Then tires and long after that, everything else. It took me a lot of time and money to learn that hard lesson but I didn't take seconds off my time until I started learning to drive.

I will say this. Either the BFGs really aren't as far off the Hoosiers as most people think, or my car got quite a bit quicker by removing ~80lbs from the nose and adding weight to the rear. Weight loss from ESP trim has only been about 80lbs, but that's after accounting for a full vs empty tank.

I am starting to come around to the 275 and under idea. But I am also a fan of keeping the weight break for solid axle vs IRS. I don't think those two ideas are mutually exclusive.

[dontlifttoshift]

LoL at you liking ***** ***** when they are free.

I think the wagon axle weight break is a discussion worth having, I just think we are 4 or 5 years from needing to have it.

[Sleeper68]

I just don't think the weight disparity is an issue. Of course the math will show that it matters, conventional theory says that it matters, but in reality......it hasn't mattered. Sure my car would be faster if weighed the same as the Dumpster Fire but I still wouldn't be able to drive around him. Until CAM gets to a point where we have 10 cars fully prepped to the rules with 10 very good drivers behind the wheel, 300 lbs won't make a significant difference. So lets keep it simple and fun.

The driver makes the most significant difference. Then tires and long after that, everything else. It took me a lot of time and money to learn that hard lesson but I didn't take seconds off my time until I started learning to drive.

Driver is definitely the most important part, and thank goodness it is. Solo is supposed to be a driver's competition as we all know.

I am not concerned with the weight difference between C, T, and S cars necessarily. Even so, there is no argument that the difference is not significant, and I think if C,T,S are merged many in C class will not be happy.

One could argue 300lbs weight difference can be overcome with skill certainly, but it gets alot harder between ~2500lb S cars and ~3600lb C cars and maybe even 3000lb T cars and 3600lb C cars.

Both Randy and Devin are fantastic drivers, yet Devin is almost always ahead of Randy by 1 or more seconds. I don't think that is all skill.

I will say this. Either the BFGs really aren't as far off the Hoosiers as most people think, or my car got quite a bit quicker by removing ~80lbs from the nose and adding weight to the rear. Weight loss from ESP trim has only been about 80lbs, but that's after accounting for a full vs empty tank.

I am starting to come around to the 275 and under idea. But I am also a fan of keeping the weight break for solid axle vs IRS. I don't think those two ideas are mutually exclusive.

I too am of the opinion they are not mutually exclusive.

LoL at you liking ***** ***** when they are free.

I think the wagon axle weight break is a discussion worth having, I just think we are 4 or 5 years from needing to have it.

What would you say is the best way CAM as a whole should progress from now into the next 5-7 years?

[dontlifttoshift]

Here is DriveAutoX results from a couple of weeks ago. First set is Sunday, conditions were drying through out the morning. Second set is Saturday and it was dry all day.

1 GTU 10 Jansen Fischer 2003 Mitsubishi Evolution 8 38.357
2 GTU 37 James Elliott 2002 Chevrolet Corvette Z06 45.228
3 GT 196 Nathan Popp 1995 Chevrolet Camaro Z28 45.690
4 GTU 96 Danny Popp 2003 Chevrolet Corvette Z06 45.773
5 GTU 138 Bill Hughes 2001 Chevrolet Corvette 45.845
6 GTV 32 Donny Freise 1971 Chevrolet Camaro 45.964
7 SCN 85 Eric Brown 2019 Mazda Miata 46.455
8 GTV 67 Tavis Spencer 1967 Chevrolet Camaro 46.490
9 GTU 191 Robert Armstrong 1991 Chevrolet Corvette 46.581
10 GTU 48 Mike Gallagher 2016 Ford Focus RS 46.586
11 GT 5 James Bishir 2017 Chevrolet Camar_OH! 46.758
12 NLO 135 Randy Adkins 2016 Ford GT350 46.812

1 GTU 37 James Elliott 2002 Chevrolet Corvette Z06 41.871
2 GTU 96 Danny Popp 2003 Chevrolet Corvette Z06 42.456
3 NLO 135 Randy Adkins 2016 Ford GT350 42.706
4 GTU 7 Marshall Reinert 2000 Chevrolet Corvette 42.894
5 GTV 32 Donny Freise 1971 Chevrolet Camaro 42.937
6 GTU 191 Robert Armstrong 1991 Chevrolet Corvette 43.106
7 GTU 94 Alex Tziortzis 2002 Chevrolet Corvette Z06 43.224
8 GT 35 James Thomas 2016 Ford Mustang GT350 43.230
9 GTU 138 Bill Hughes 2001 Chevrolet Corvette 43.303
10 GTV 25 Nathan Johnson 1968 Chevrolet Camaro 43.382
11 GT 5 James Bishir 2017 Chevrolet Camar_OH! 43.433
12 GT 196 Nathan Popp 1995 Chevrolet Camaro Z28 43.436

My 71 is 3500 pounds on 265s with off the shelf parts from ridetech. No ABS, no electronic shocks, no 315s. Curb weight on Randys car is 3760.......I will be amazed if it still weighs that. Devin would beat Randy in Randys car.

CAM should progress just the way it has and continue to evolve but ultimately the membership will decide what CAM becomes. We can't make classing decisions based on 1 or 2 cars or drivers or whiners. Classing should serve the majority of participants. You will always have people that are willing to work harder on their cars or skillset, you can't legislate that out of the sport. You can level the playing field with simple tire size rule.

If everyone had to race in a Street class before coming to CAM we could eliminate alot of the rules discussions. Most of them are driven by the perception that they are outgunned. Getting your a$$ handed to you by someone driving the _exact_ same car is a sobering experience. I highly recommend it for everyone.

[gscherer78ta]

This will be the first year that I will compete in the OUSCA series without a Pontiac Motor in my Trans Am, I have an LS3 in it now. This weekend I am betting that there are very few SBC's or SBF's at the event. Also guessing that my 275 tires are among the skinniest in grid. I'm not complaining, this is a choice I've made and I don't have to go to optima events, just speculating on what I find when I get there. I run what I brung and have as much fun as I can!

[SSLance]

Getting your a$$ handed to you by someone driving the _exact_ same car is a sobering experience. I highly recommend it for everyone.

Every time I feel like I've reached a plateau as a driver I do just that...put a driver better than me in my car for an event.

I don't do it to be humbled as much as I do it to learn and better myself as a driver.

[Sleeper68]

CAM should progress just the way it has and continue to evolve but ultimately the membership will decide what CAM becomes. We can't make classing decisions based on 1 or 2 cars or drivers or whiners. Classing should serve the majority of participants. You will always have people that are willing to work harder on their cars or skillset, you can't legislate that out of the sport. You can level the playing field with simple tire size rule.

I think that is what this discussion is about, to help the CAM community talk about what rules changes, if any, should come through in 2021. I agree on all points.

If everyone had to race in a Street class before coming to CAM we could eliminate alot of the rules discussions. Most of them are driven by the perception that they are outgunned. Getting your a$$ handed to you by someone driving the _exact_ same car is a sobering experience. I highly recommend it for everyone.

I came from street classes and moved to CAM because I wanted to race my Camaro, which was illegal for any other street tire class. The insane number of rules is the street classes was very annoying and limiting. One was very hard pressed to do well unless you had the "right" starting car for the class. CAM is much better in that you can make your car work for the class, which I think we all love.

Some of the CAMT guys do have that perception, and they are right, and it has kept them from showing up recently. This assertion is based on discussions I have had with some of them.

The reason this particular discussion was brought up is because of the lack of "vintage" cars in CAMT at the most recent National SCCA event, not because the drivers of the vintage cars did or did not do well.

[dontlifttoshift]

I think that is what this discussion is about, to help the CAM community talk about what rules changes, if any, should come through in 2021. I agree on all points.

<snip>

The reason this particular discussion was brought up is because of the lack of "vintage" cars in CAMT at the most recent National SCCA event, not because the drivers of the vintage cars did or did not do well.

I purposely held off on replying to this. I wanted the chance to run heads up with Devin before I expanded any further and see what actual attendance was at the OG Cam event.

Saturday results from Cam Challenge East. https://www.scca.com/downloads/51461...lenge/download

The rest of the results can be found here https://www.scca.com/events/1995521-...-cam-challenge

47 drivers with times in T. 33 of them were pre 95. 28 were pre 87....that includes all turd gen F bodies and fox mustangs as pre 87. 16 were pre 72, that includes all 2nd gen F bodies. There were 3 cars in the top 20 Saturday that did not have at least 315s in the front. There were two cars with IRS swapped in.

In 2015 there were 64 drivers in C and only 21 in T.....the cutoff then was 72. So we are down 5 "T" cars over the past 5 years. Going by memory, in 2015, the top 20 had 4 cars _with_ 315s. Kyle Tucker and Cody Mason co drove Kyles car, Al Unser in the Speedway 2nd gen, and Mary Pozzi in her 2nd gen.

I can think of 4 drivers that voted with their wallet and decided not to attend this year due to last years rule change and they all fall into the pre 72 category.

Since 2015 DriveAutoX showed up, where you don't have to work and vintage class is actually vintage. Local SCCA support for CAM has grown to the point that traveling for events no longer seems like a requirement.


If you want to know why actual vintage cars aren't attending I think you can 100% say that they feel outclassed......again. Which is the whole reason CAM exists. These cars and their typically novice drivers used to get tossed in CP or SM and get clobbered locally and would end up 121st on pax so they couldn't even math their way into feeling good about their day. Whether or not they are actually outclassed is irrelevant, if they think they are, that's all that matters. Couple that with a couple of other options that are more attractive and people will race elsewhere.

GoodGuys does a lot of stuff wrong but they got the tire rule right. I'll say it again. Combine T and C. They consistently run the the same times.

3300# for IRS cars #3000 pounds for wagon axle cars. (I personally would like to see both of these number go up, but I understand why they shouldn't)

CAM Touring 285 max front tire width and 10" max front wheel width
CAM Competition unlimited tire and wheel width.

[Sleeper68]

I purposely held off on replying to this. I wanted the chance to run heads up with Devin before I expanded any further and see what actual attendance was at the OG Cam event.

47 drivers with times in T. 33 of them were pre 95. 28 were pre 87....that includes all turd gen F bodies and fox mustangs as pre 87. 16 were pre 72, that includes all 2nd gen F bodies. There were 3 cars in the top 20 Saturday that did not have at least 315s in the front. There were two cars with IRS swapped in.

I can think of 4 drivers that voted with their wallet and decided not to attend this year due to last years rule change and they all fall into the pre 72 category.

Since 2015 DriveAutoX showed up, where you don't have to work and vintage class is actually vintage. Local SCCA support for CAM has grown to the point that traveling for events no longer seems like a requirement.

GoodGuys does a lot of stuff wrong but they got the tire rule right. I'll say it again. Combine T and C. They consistently run the the same times.

3300# for IRS cars #3000 pounds for wagon axle cars. (I personally would like to see both of these number go up, but I understand why they shouldn't)

CAM Touring 285 max front tire width and 10" max front wheel width
CAM Competition unlimited tire and wheel width.

Thank you for posting this Donny. I wish I could have gone this year, would have been a real treat to watch you drive. I can think of 3 of the 4 people you're talking about who are notably missing this year.

Of the top 10, only 2 cars are what I would consider vintage; of the top 15, 4 vintage cars. Very telling.

Also good to note how similar the CAMC and CAMT top times are even with the weight disparity.

I must say the argument to combine C and T is quite compelling looking at this - so long as the 275/285 tire class split rule is carried with it.

I have yet to attend a DriveAutoX event but I've heard they're very fun. Would like to go to one soon.

[dontlifttoshift]

https://driveautox.com/register Last one is coming up.

[nokones]

It's debatable.

Mustang suspension was generally the same for 1979-2004.
F-Body pretty much had 1967-1981 leaf spring and then 1982-2002 torque arm.

The main thing I think we need to consider is the 90's and early 2000's cars having ABS and Traction Control.

I believe the 1992 F Body was the only 3rd Gen model year with ABS. The 90 model year did not have ABS or traction control and I believe the 1991 didn't either.

[anguilla1980]

1993 was for f-bodys.

[Sleeper68]

https://driveautox.com/register Last one is coming up.

Unfortunately I don't think I can make that one. I am definitely trying to run some next year.