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    1. #21
      Join Date
      Jul 2013
      Location
      N. Scottsdale
      Posts
      376
      Country Flag: United States
      Most likely I'll be using one of those shootout/hurricane/tomahawk intakes on my '70 Formula so that I can fit everything under the factory hood. My neighbor Frank G of AllPontic did some testing and said that it can work well---it does give up some power relative to Victor, but not as much as he thought it would, especially in comparison to the NW. He used it on a "mild" 505 for a friend of ours with EZ 2.0 TB...we were all very impressed...supper snappy and pulled like a freight train--cliche, but a perfect descriptor. Mine will be a 535 (TB) and a little less mild, and I know he wouldn't let me use it if he thought it would rob too much power--instead, he'd try much harder to get me to go with a different hood!

    2. #22
      Join Date
      Sep 2004
      Location
      Kettering, OH
      Posts
      537
      Quote Originally Posted by yellow1098Greg View Post
      I thought the throttle bodies were smaller on the MPFI setups.....I guess if I got that speedmaster intake I could send it to butler to get it port matched to my heads....just wanting to get max performance from my setup I was wondering if that lower intake would cost me power vs the Victor or a modified northwind
      A Victor is going to require a lot of fab to make it fit with the shaker. The fore-aft position will be off as well as the height and angle so I don't think it's worth it for the power difference.

      Port matching is easy if your heads are matched to a particular gasket. Mine are CNC matched to an SCE gasket (I forget which one) and I spent no more than two hours with a $20 die grinder from HF, a carbide burr and grinding rolls from Eastwood.

      Finally, I'm pretty sure Terminator X is for LS and Cayote engines and the regular Terminator is TBI based. You may be thinking of the Dominator which unless you're racing, doesn't offer much more than the HP. Otherwise, you're right in that you can find TBs that are lower than a carb. A Quadrajet is about 3.25" high and you can find TBs less than two and run a spacer to make up the difference.

      Also, you'll want to have Comp or someone spec an EFI cam for you. You'll make a lot less idle vacuum though so you'll need to use hydraboost for power brakes or go manual.
      1967 Firebird Convert, Fuel Injected 462 ci, TKO 600
      http://1967firebird.atwebpages.com

    3. #23
      Join Date
      May 2015
      Location
      Island Lake, IL
      Posts
      815
      Country Flag: United States
      The 4 barrel efi throttle bodies flow 1000+cfm. Very few engines have the ability to utilize a 2000cfm dominator efi 4 barrel....super victor might be overkill.

    4. #24
      Join Date
      Nov 2010
      Location
      orlando fl
      Posts
      411
      All great info thanks fellas....where are you finding a tomahawk intake nowadays? Butler doesn’t have any.....and that info about the terminator is golden about the vacuum issue and things like that.....the terminator does have a newer universal kit for non LS/coyote engines but if it’s gonna cause that many more issues that’s not ideal either ...Hammered which efi setup are you running on your 462?

    5. #25
      Join Date
      Sep 2004
      Location
      Orlando, FL
      Posts
      1,074
      Country Flag: United States
      Quote Originally Posted by F-Body International View Post
      Pretty sure you're meaning the Speedmaster (name changed over the years).

      $132 port fuel injection Pontiac intake brand new on eBay...
      https://www.ebay.com/itm/274264152712
      This is the Tomahawk now apparently...
      SMSgt Ty Ingle, USAF
      "CF71" - Freedom Bird
      Hoodpins.com, Inland Empire Driveline, Billet Accessories Direct, Modo Innovations, AutoRad Radiators, Morris Classic Concepts, Marquez Design, Anvil Auto, Fesler Billet, US Collision (DOOM), AGR Performance, Pro-touringF-body.com, Phoenix Transmission Products, Shiftworks, ACC Carpet, Hedman Hedders, BMR Fabrication, American Autowire, MityMounts, TIN INDIAN Performance, Kauffman Racing Equipment, Pypes, RobbMc Performance, WMC, Holley, NOS, PST

    6. #26
      Join Date
      Sep 2004
      Location
      Kettering, OH
      Posts
      537
      Quote Originally Posted by yellow1098Greg View Post
      All great info thanks fellas....where are you finding a tomahawk intake nowadays? Butler doesn’t have any.....and that info about the terminator is golden about the vacuum issue and things like that.....the terminator does have a newer universal kit for non LS/coyote engines but if it’s gonna cause that many more issues that’s not ideal either ...Hammered which efi setup are you running on your 462?
      I'm not an expert on Holley's efi products, but knowing that I will one day need to upgrade to one, I have studied them. You need to talk to a Holley tech to validate what I say before you buy anything.

      Terminator: The kits seem oriented toward TBI and NOT MPFI systems. The more generic kits seem oriented toward modern engines with crank and cam sensors. The actual ECU used in the Terminator kits looks like the Holley HP.

      HP or Dominator are both suited to MPFI systems and are very flexible to accommodate almost any engine. You can see a comparison here: https://havocspeed.com/media/holley-...s-best-for-me/

      Unless you need electronic transmission control or are going to do some serious drag racing, the Dominator seems overkill to me.

      I am running the Accell Gen 7 and you can find details in the link that I provided in my first post. Holley bought Accell about 10 years ago and prompltly stopped supporting all of the EFI products. If anything goes bad, like even the distributor cap or rotor, I'm toast so I need to migrate to another system. For simplicity, I'm running a dual-sync distributor and that limits my choices to FAST or Holley. Holley's support is better and the pwm output control is useful for controlling the fuel pump on my return system to avoid overheating the fuel in the tank.
      1967 Firebird Convert, Fuel Injected 462 ci, TKO 600
      http://1967firebird.atwebpages.com

    7. #27
      Join Date
      May 2015
      Location
      Island Lake, IL
      Posts
      815
      Country Flag: United States
      Quote Originally Posted by Hammered View Post
      I'm not an expert on Holley's efi products, but knowing that I will one day need to upgrade to one, I have studied them. You need to talk to a Holley tech to validate what I say before you buy anything.

      Terminator: The kits seem oriented toward TBI and NOT MPFI systems. The more generic kits seem oriented toward modern engines with crank and cam sensors. The actual ECU used in the Terminator kits looks like the Holley HP.

      HP or Dominator are both suited to MPFI systems and are very flexible to accommodate almost any engine. You can see a comparison here: https://havocspeed.com/media/holley-...s-best-for-me/

      Unless you need electronic transmission control or are going to do some serious drag racing, the Dominator seems overkill to me.

      I am running the Accell Gen 7 and you can find details in the link that I provided in my first post. Holley bought Accell about 10 years ago and prompltly stopped supporting all of the EFI products. If anything goes bad, like even the distributor cap or rotor, I'm toast so I need to migrate to another system. For simplicity, I'm running a dual-sync distributor and that limits my choices to FAST or Holley. Holley's support is better and the pwm output control is useful for controlling the fuel pump on my return system to avoid overheating the fuel in the tank.
      Hello,

      This whole thread is in reference to the new Terminator X system. It's a new low-budget efi computer and harness designed for port injected engines. I know it may be confusing but this is different than the Terminator (dare I say, "older") TBI system.

      https://www.holley.com/products/fuel.../parts/550-936

    8. #28
      Join Date
      May 2015
      Location
      Island Lake, IL
      Posts
      815
      Country Flag: United States
      Hey Guys,

      I saw Holley just released a TBI version of the Terminator X...$1500 new. Something to look into.

      https://www.holley.com/products/fuel...parts/550-1002

      - - - Updated - - -

      Quote Originally Posted by yellow1098Greg View Post
      All great info thanks fellas....where are you finding a tomahawk intake nowadays?
      I provided you a link before. Check it out. Jegs has them as well if you want to go that route.

    9. #29
      Join Date
      Nov 2010
      Location
      orlando fl
      Posts
      411
      Jon I have seen that terminator stealth...looks like it’s only good up to 600hp...I think there new TBI is the Xflow for higher HP setups.....I would like some more info from Holley with terminator x as far as the vacuum goes and if I will need to go hydroboost ....your info on the intake has been awesome!

    10. #30
      Join Date
      Sep 2016
      Location
      Bakersfield, CA
      Posts
      603
      Country Flag: United States
      I went with this Terminator Stealth setup: https://www.holley.com/products/fuel...parts/550-441K

      Only difference I see is the ECU and the injectors are 100lb instead of 80lb plus they run at LS fuel pressure where mine runs at old school 43psi.

      I wish mine supported 650hp instead of 600 :( I kinda feel ripped off.
      http://www.TheFOAT.com/92GTA
      1969 Pontiac Firebird
      w/535ci IAII aluminum block, Dailey dry sump, Holley EFI (full road race build). Primer black w/black interior.
      1992 Pontiac Trans Am GTA w/SLP Performance Package. Dark Jade Grey Metallic, grey leather, T-Tops.

    11. #31
      Join Date
      Sep 2004
      Location
      Kettering, OH
      Posts
      537
      Thanks for the correction, i was not aware of the -X which looks like a direct competitor to the Edelbrock Pro-Flo. There is a good comparison table at the very bottom of this page: https://www.holley.com/brands/holley.../terminator_x/

      The only downside that I see is that you can apparently program it only through the handheld which I cannot believe gives the same programming range of options as the full computer interface through a laptop. The same is true of the Pro-Flo.
      1967 Firebird Convert, Fuel Injected 462 ci, TKO 600
      http://1967firebird.atwebpages.com

    12. #32
      Join Date
      Nov 2010
      Location
      orlando fl
      Posts
      411
      I’m not sure on the handheld I’m sure you hook it to a computer even a sniper does that.....but my big concern is looking into the vacuum situation you brought up and if I need to run a different cam because of it And the biggest for pontiacs is the dam intakes available

    13. #33
      Join Date
      May 2015
      Location
      Island Lake, IL
      Posts
      815
      Country Flag: United States
      Quote Originally Posted by yellow1098Greg View Post
      I’m not sure on the handheld I’m sure you hook it to a computer even a sniper does that.....but my big concern is looking into the vacuum situation you brought up and if I need to run a different cam because of it And the biggest for pontiacs is the dam intakes available
      You can usually run more cam than compared to a carburetor and still be streetable.

      This is where open and closed loop tuning comes into play. This can also be blended for idle and off-idle transitions.

    14. #34
      Join Date
      Apr 2001
      Location
      The City of Fountains
      Posts
      15,971
      Country Flag: United States
      I've recently tuned a Pontiac engine with Holley EFI, a throttle body system. It has a pretty rowdy camshaft and idles around 72-84 kPa. The trick is to rescale the load axis and get more resolution in the area where the engine actually operates.

      Andrew
      1970 GTO Version 3.0
      1967 Cougar build
      GM High-Tech Performance feature
      My YouTube Channel Please Subscribe!
      Instagram @projectgattago
      Dr. EFI
      I deliver what EFI promises.
      Remote Holley EFI tuning.
      Please get in touch if I can be of service.

      "You were the gun, your voice was the trigger, your bravery was the barrel, your eyes were the bullets." ~ Her

    15. #35
      Join Date
      Nov 2010
      Location
      orlando fl
      Posts
      411
      I’m definitely looking for rowdy! My real problem is the intake and port matching from butler now...unless you guys know of anywhere that can add those efi bungs at a decent price after the fact

    16. #36
      Join Date
      Apr 2001
      Location
      The City of Fountains
      Posts
      15,971
      Country Flag: United States
      Quote Originally Posted by yellow1098Greg View Post
      I’m definitely looking for rowdy! My real problem is the intake and port matching from butler now...unless you guys know of anywhere that can add those efi bungs at a decent price after the fact
      You don't want too rowdy with EFI. If you can get 15in of vacuum, that would be optimal. There are many multiport Pontiac manifolds on the market.

      Andrew
      1970 GTO Version 3.0
      1967 Cougar build
      GM High-Tech Performance feature
      My YouTube Channel Please Subscribe!
      Instagram @projectgattago
      Dr. EFI
      I deliver what EFI promises.
      Remote Holley EFI tuning.
      Please get in touch if I can be of service.

      "You were the gun, your voice was the trigger, your bravery was the barrel, your eyes were the bullets." ~ Her

    17. #37
      Join Date
      Nov 2010
      Location
      orlando fl
      Posts
      411
      Quote Originally Posted by andrewb70 View Post
      You don't want too rowdy with EFI. If you can get 15in of vacuum, that would be optimal. There are many multiport Pontiac manifolds on the market.

      Andrew
      so here’s the issue my friend....my heads are going to be aluminum 340cfm and that doesn’t go well with the smaller cheaper intakes I’m told by butler because of port matching....such as the speedmaster (old tomahawk) and the toker 2.....so I only have the option of the super Victor that they sell with efi bungs but that doesn’t fit well with my shaker hood...now I could go with a northwind but I have to pay like an extra 700 to get the bungs welded on......the reason I need to get the intake from butler is I really wanna make sure my intake is portmatched to the heads I’m gonna order to get to my power goal. Definitely a hangup right now

    18. #38
      Join Date
      Sep 2004
      Location
      Kettering, OH
      Posts
      537
      Sounds like you need to pay the money or revise your goal. At 650HP, I suspect you're already at a higher level of parts, like a forged crank for example, so another $700 shouldn't be a deal killer as hard as it is to swallow. Alternatively, you could add some weld to the roof of the T2 or Speedmaster runners. That may be less expensive than doing the bungs.

      BTW, my engine makes about 10" of vacuum and I can idle it at 650-700 rpm if I want and it's very streetable.
      1967 Firebird Convert, Fuel Injected 462 ci, TKO 600
      http://1967firebird.atwebpages.com

    19. #39
      Join Date
      Nov 2010
      Location
      orlando fl
      Posts
      411
      Quote Originally Posted by Hammered View Post
      Sounds like you need to pay the money or revise your goal. At 650HP, I suspect you're already at a higher level of parts, like a forged crank for example, so another $700 shouldn't be a deal killer as hard as it is to swallow. Alternatively, you could add some weld to the roof of the T2 or Speedmaster runners. That may be less expensive than doing the bungs.

      BTW, my engine makes about 10" of vacuum and I can idle it at 650-700 rpm if I want and it's very streetable.
      good point haha I think your right....the theme that get us all......”well iv come this far”

    20. #40
      Join Date
      Sep 2004
      Location
      Orlando, FL
      Posts
      1,074
      Country Flag: United States
      I'd get a Speedmaster that already has the bungs and have the tops of the runners welded and then simply use 120x240 gaskets and port match the intake yourself after having the tops of the runners welded for more height.

      SMSgt Ty Ingle, USAF
      "CF71" - Freedom Bird
      Hoodpins.com, Inland Empire Driveline, Billet Accessories Direct, Modo Innovations, AutoRad Radiators, Morris Classic Concepts, Marquez Design, Anvil Auto, Fesler Billet, US Collision (DOOM), AGR Performance, Pro-touringF-body.com, Phoenix Transmission Products, Shiftworks, ACC Carpet, Hedman Hedders, BMR Fabrication, American Autowire, MityMounts, TIN INDIAN Performance, Kauffman Racing Equipment, Pypes, RobbMc Performance, WMC, Holley, NOS, PST


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