Results 1 to 18 of 18
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jan 2020
    Posts
    3

    New to pro touring and have a question

    Hey all,

    As stated, I'm new to the world of pro touring and am trying to gather some information. I have always wanted a 1968 camaro. It has been my dream car since i was a little kid. I now am in a place where I can purchase one, but I'm having some reserves now. I feel that I have been spoiled by modern cars a little. I have owned 3 camaros from years 80,86,98, a 02Z06, an 07 z51 vette, and 3 subaru Sti's. With the exceptions of the camaro's, all of these cars have had a good deal of aftermarket power and suspension mods.

    Now I know that a 1st gen camaro is not a modern vehicle and will be quite different. However, is it possible to modify one to handle and ride similar without dropping 12k on a complete front subframe kit and 4 link for the rear? I am flirting with buying a mistubishi evo 9 as well. Could a 1st gen keep up with a properly set up evo 9?

    I'm not looking to autox, more of a weekend canyon carver and then perhaps get into some road course racing in the future. Would it be worth it to try and build the 1st gen or would my money be better spent on the evo 9 for such things and just build a straight line beast 1st gen?

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    St. George, Utah
    Posts
    1,618
    Country Flag: United States
    Yes, absolutely you can have that in an old Camaro. Modern cars do what they do because they have a little extra engineering in the suspension. The whole Pro Touring movement is based on changing geometry and suspension dynamics to bring it up to modern specs without having to put your old body on a modern chassis. MANY folks have built very fun cars to drive with a factory subframe and spindles, upgraded with the typical bolt on parts from the one of the handful of high quality Pro Touring suspension manufacturers. Good tires and shocks are a big part of the equation too. It's not cheap, you'll still be dropping a little coin on a decent suspension but in the end the car could run with or even outrun an Evo for a fraction of their cost. You really can't beat the feeling of cruising a piece of muscle car history either, and it'll turn more heads at cruise night than any Evo would.

    I always like to suggest once you find the builder car don't buy anything until you understand suspensions better and how & why each part you upgrade is part of the solution. Pick up a copy of a book called "How To Make Your Muscle Car Handle" and then you'll have a better foundation to start making decisions for what parts you want.

    Once you know the direction for the under the car goodies, a professional rendering will help you sort out the visuals. I happen to know a guy... ;)

    Welcome to the forum and good luck!!
    -Ben, Your friendly neighborhood Rendering dude

    SRD on Facebook

    79 Cutlass wagon build


  3. #3
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    37
    Country Flag: United States
    I previously owned a evo9(minor mods, hotchkis springs, rear sway bar and MR bilsteins) and currently own a 67 camaro. Bang for your buck the evo is hard to beat(decent power, good seats, brakes, handling and traction on street tires). I agree with the above that the camaro will get more attention and is more unique. Camaros are expensive and I have way more money invested into my camaro then I had in the Evo and it does not stop or turn as well, its a ongoing goal. Good luck with your choice(both cars can be awesome).

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Location
    Southern IN
    Posts
    85
    Country Flag: United States
    You’re at the crossroads that everyone who’s ever contemplated building a serious Pro-Touring car has been at...do I buy a newer car that’s engineered and drives/handles as such or do I want an older muscle car that potentially does all of those things as well but for a much higher dollar amount. That’s a question only you can answer in the end, although you’ve come to the right place to find the facts. I agree with the above posts and I’d add a few more things to consider...1. count the cost involved either way and especially with the Camaro path...2. know what you’re getting into and try to map out your path In advance by researching and pricing parts and evaluate your ability to perform any or all of the labor. You may be surprised what the cost will be depending on your tastes/expectations. It would suck to get halfway thru a project and not be able or lose the desire to finish only to end up taking a beating by selling it. 3. With that in mind, if you go the Camaro path, be patient and watch for projects that come up for sale, there’s bargains to be had. The good thing is that if you’re patient, you can do it Johnny Cash style...”one piece at a time”.

    At the end of the day, buy what makes you happy and what fits in your budget. Lastly, I had to Google what a Mitsubishi Evo looked like, just sayin! Lol
    Shane
    #theanchorholds
    Link to my build thread:
    http://lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php?t=56387

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Oct 2018
    Location
    San Jose, CA
    Posts
    493
    If possible the best approach is to own both. That way you have the later model performance car to drive while you have the older PT car under build even if doing in stages.
    1971 Camaro - 406 / T56
    2016 Camaro SS convertible
    2018 Colorado 4x4

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Orange County, CA
    Posts
    164
    One key difference: Men drive Camaros, not toy cars.

    Just a little food for thought.
    Mike F.


  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jan 2020
    Posts
    3
    thanks, for all the thoughts. yeah, i think i have a tough choice on my hands. To build each the way i'd want them, i can see the cost of the camaro being almost double the evo. Not that money is the driving factor, but it is definitely something to consider. I will continue to read up on the forum and gain a bit more knowledge before making my decision.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Oct 2018
    Location
    San Jose, CA
    Posts
    493
    Quote Originally Posted by ssmike View Post
    One key difference: Men drive Camaros, not toy cars.

    Just a little food for thought.
    Yes. Agree. And when I say own both that’s what I mean - 6th gen Camaro or 5-6-7th gen corvette goes very well in the stable next to that PT ride.

    Name:  IMG_6071.JPG
Views: 318
Size:  502.3 KB
    1971 Camaro - 406 / T56
    2016 Camaro SS convertible
    2018 Colorado 4x4

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jan 2020
    Posts
    3
    Quote Originally Posted by ssmike View Post
    One key difference: Men drive Camaros, not toy cars.

    Just a little food for thought.

    thanks,

    I have a real man's procharged d1x 2018 Denali that puts down 586 to the wheels to pull either toy. I think my manhood is safe.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Chesapeake, VA
    Posts
    465
    Have a read here: https://www.ridetech.com/info/how-to...happy-hot-rod/

    Pretty good advice I'd say, and a great thoughts to help you work out a plan. Unless you're planning to get hardcore into autocross or open track days how the care makes you feel is much more important than whether you can exceed 1G lateral acceleration.
    Cars are meant to be driven.

    John B

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Dec 2019
    Location
    southern Maryland
    Posts
    16
    Interesting discussion. I just started restoring my 68 camaro, I'm the second owner, originally purchased in 1979 and been in storage for 28 years. I could never bring myself to sell it, received numerous offers and inquiries but knew I'd get to it someday.
    I always loved the raw feeling 60's and early 70's detroit musclecars provide, nothing else quite like them! That said, I had drum brakes that never quite did much, streched the case of my Muncie M21 downshifting it to slow down and constantly had to rebuild it. I built the original 327-210 into an L79, very pleased with it's performance. Upgraded to Koni shocks and addco swaybars, an improvement in the day but nothing like what you can do now.

    Currently installing Global West Coilover suspension and 1 1/8" sway in front with C6Z51 340mm brakes in the front. Mini tub, solid subframe mounts,subframe connectors, 8-point roll bar and C6Z51 330mm brakes in the rear. I'm still contemplating a tire and wheel combo and all the other improvements.

    Do I expect it to behave as a modern performance car, no I do hope for vast improvements in braking and handling but still retaining that solid in your pants feel that I don't think you get with modern cars. It seems to me that modern performance cars have more power and handle incredibly well but almost with a luxury car feel, I just don't feel as connected to the car and road as I did in my 68.

    That's my take on what I will get when I'm finished.

    Wayneb

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Fredericksburg, VA.
    Posts
    3,081
    Country Flag: United States
    Quote Originally Posted by Gmachine1911 View Post
    At the end of the day, buy what makes you happy and what fits in your budget. Lastly, I had to Google what a Mitsubishi Evo looked like, just sayin! Lol
    That's funny, I had to Google Evo 9 as well and my first thought was, it looks like a Honda Civic Type R. Ultimately it is your choice and you have to do what makes you happy. Personally, all those rice burners look the same to me. My money is on old muscle that handles like modern muscle. I say, follow your dream!
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    Steve Hayes
    "Dust Off"
    68 Camaro

    Speed has never killed anyone. Suddenly becoming stationary, that's what gets you!
    "Jeremy Clarkson"

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    288
    Country Flag: United States
    Consider that these classic muscle cars never go out of style. People that raced to the show rooms to by the newest thing when they first come out... ultimately it just becomes the older model in a couple of years. Yawn...

    One thing I find fascinating is when I'm out driving how much I get harassed by all these newer cars trying to get me to race them. I mean, the damn thing is almost 50 years old. It'd be like me in 1971 with a brand new Camaro going after a Model-T.

    People in everything from Camaros to Ferrari's, BMW's, Maserati's, you name it. A lot of times they're doing crazy s**t trying to get my attention. They probably think they look like a bad-a$$ when in reality they look like a moron. But while I don't take them up on it, it's still very satisfying that the car commands that amount of attention (especially since I"m going on 29 years of ownership); and there's an even larger satisfaction I take in knowing that I built the car myself.

    That kind of satisfaction is something I'd never get in a newer car despite whatever performance it has.

    Then there's the usual thumb's up's and "Nice car!" comments I get from average folks, again not something I'm going to get in a newer car. And as as a result I just never get tired of driving it; it's always a thrill to get behind the wheel.

    All that said, with basic bolt-on's the car is definitely no slouch. It's lightyears ahead of a factory 1971 Z28 and it does in fact ride and drive like a newer car. So yeah, while I probably can't keep up with newer stuff on a track or whatever... For just driving around town and having some fun with it, I'll take the Pro-Touring classic over a newer car any day.
    See me in Camaro Performers

    DIY Projector Headlights, LED Tail Lights, and more. See my website.

    ULTM8Z Website

  14. #14
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Stanislaus County Ca.
    Posts
    133
    Country Flag: United States
    Quote Originally Posted by ULTM8Z View Post
    Consider that these classic muscle cars never go out of style. People that raced to the show rooms to by the newest thing when they first come out... ultimately it just becomes the older model in a couple of years. Yawn...

    One thing I find fascinating is when I'm out driving how much I get harassed by all these newer cars trying to get me to race them. I mean, the damn thing is almost 50 years old. It'd be like me in 1971 with a brand new Camaro going after a Model-T.

    People in everything from Camaros to Ferrari's, BMW's, Maserati's, you name it. A lot of times they're doing crazy s**t trying to get my attention. They probably think they look like a bad-a$$ when in reality they look like a moron. But while I don't take them up on it, it's still very satisfying that the car commands that amount of attention (especially since I"m going on 29 years of ownership); and there's an even larger satisfaction I take in knowing that I built the car myself.

    That kind of satisfaction is something I'd never get in a newer car despite whatever performance it has.

    Then there's the usual thumb's up's and "Nice car!" comments I get from average folks, again not something I'm going to get in a newer car. And as as a result I just never get tired of driving it; it's always a thrill to get behind the wheel.

    All that said, with basic bolt-on's the car is definitely no slouch. It's lightyears ahead of a factory 1971 Z28 and it does in fact ride and drive like a newer car. So yeah, while I probably can't keep up with newer stuff on a track or whatever... For just driving around town and having some fun with it, I'll take the Pro-Touring classic over a newer car any day.
    I get this all the time too. I meet my car buddies for breakfast on many Fridays, and always some 20yr old something trying run me down the long stretches. I even try to avoid being the first at the stop light on four lane roads because of this.

    This is because our cars look bad @$$ standing still or driving,and those turd boxes that are barely distinguishable from one another attract no more attention than a Prius. If you go to a cars n coffee, people may look at a new vette or even an exotic as they slowly walk by, but stop and look inside, outside and under the old 60s-70s muscle cars.

    Heck, the manufactures are even trying to recreate the look because it's so popular.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Oct 2018
    Location
    Phoenix, AZ
    Posts
    467
    Country Flag: United States
    Something else to think about is the character and involvement of the older cars. The driving dynamic is totally different for these two cars. The Evo is easier to just get in and drive, unless you start cranking up the boost and then you get down that crazy path of chasing upgrades. On the flip side, the Camaro is always going to be more raw and involved to drive, but they have a charm and bring a joy to drive that's so hard to describe or match (really any older car). And let's not forget that those Evos command silly prices in the used market since they are no longer produced. So the price gap isn't as bad as you might think.

    As for a 1st gen keeping up with an Evo....go to an autox. You'll see the solid PT Camaros putting up lethal times and looking good doing it. So yeah, you can beat an Evo for sure.

    Ultimately your mind is likely already made up whether you know it yet or not. We all just get a chance to brag about how much more we like driving old cars this way. An Evo gives "right now" satisfaction and 99% bolt-on parts whereas the Camaro is going to take a bit more work at times to get up and going properly, but I bet it's more reliable in the end. There is a lot to be said for putting in a little more effort up front to obtain a greater reward in the end. Also older Camaros, done right, are appreciating in value pretty rapidly right now so there is also that bonus.
    '95 F-150 track ready street beast
    Want more projects/photos? Check my Instagram

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    San Jose, CA
    Posts
    4,211
    Country Flag: United States
    Quote Originally Posted by everkain View Post
    thanks, for all the thoughts. yeah, i think i have a tough choice on my hands. To build each the way i'd want them, i can see the cost of the camaro being almost double the evo. Not that money is the driving factor, but it is definitely something to consider. I will continue to read up on the forum and gain a bit more knowledge before making my decision.
    Welcome to Pro-Touring! Lots of questions that have been asked many times. I can tell you from experience, you can definitely do quite a bit with a first gen without installing an aftermarket front subframe. I've done this to our '67 called QuickChangeCamaro. If you're on Instagram, use the hashtag #quickchangecamaro

    Here's the link to installing control arms on the stock front subframe, brakes, and a torque arm rear suspension. This '67 kicks butt on the autocross. I wouldn't believe so much could be done with so little (compared to spending the extra money involved in a new front subframe), but after driving it, this car is ultra competitive at the Goodguys autocross against some cars with a lot more money invested.

    Here's a link to the information on our '67 QuickChangeCamaro



    Regards,
    Tony
    @Camaro.Family Camaros
    1967 #QuickChangeCamaro - SpeedTech Suspension LS1/T56
    1967 #CFBee - SpeedTech Suspension SuperCharged LS3/T56
    1969 #TaxReturnCamaro Art Morrison Suspension 496/T56
    1986 #IROCdaily - Stock IROC


  17. #17
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Thompsons Station, TN
    Posts
    3,901
    Country Flag: United States
    if your smart about what you want and make realistic goal with the budget, if you want an EVO 9 killer whats the cost of the evo? So the Evo IX MR when new went for about $37,000,

    so
    10,000 for used LS and trans swap
    7900 ridetech suspension kit complete
    4500 forged wheels and tires
    4500 Big brake system
    1000 for race seats

    27900 total, great start and would all ready kill the evo

    just my 2 cents

    Name:  11357104_419323384920956_7444752765335660020_o.jpg
Views: 94
Size:  192.3 KB

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Seattle area
    Posts
    295
    You can start with a performance model of the car you want .Like a Z-28 and or Super Sport .It will make a good start, Make it safe and reliable to drive .Then decide the way you want to go with upgrades if you decide to.As you and your pocket book lets you. Remember that one time these cars were dailey drivers in their day .