Carbon Fiber Business

[badazz81z28]

Zach from Zrodz Customs has a sister company opening up that is called Fiber Forged Composites. Their website is still being built but they have an active Facebook and Instagram. All of the parts that I've seen from them are unbelievable. Here's his Camaro: https://www.fuelcurve.com/z-rodz-1971-camaro/

I know he's got alot more in the works now too.

thrilled to see it’s a second gen, not another first gen....

[Josh@Ridetech]

Agreed

[Sbeck09]

I think people forget that when running a business that requires manual labor, every minute has a cost. I noticed this when doing performance and maintenance work on European cars. People would know the cost of the part and then complain that you have to charge "so much" for the labor when it took hours to do what they wanted. Composites are this x10. It takes HOURS of tedious labor to get the panel right. Those molds then have a limited number of uses before they have to be redone. So the added cost is in the labor PLUS the already higher cost of materials. Luckily carbon is getting cheaper with wider adoption. Slowly, but it is. 30 years ago a guy at home couldn't just order up a kit online to make his own panel.

You'll still end up spending over $1,000 minimum to make your own panel. And that's if you don't screw up. So $2,000 for a hood you just order and bolt-on (regardless of fit) isn't THAT terrible. Am I spending that much? Hell no, not right now! I need to be a better driver before I chase 1/10 of a second per lap with expensive lightwieght parts.

As for the complaints about carbon over fiberglass....it's still far less than the weight of a factory panel with the "look." So unless you are building a Lemans Prototype, that 3 extra pounds the fiberglass "adds" to your composite hood is nothing. I'm totally guilty of getting caught up in the whole "I have to have the absolute best if I have it!" But the reality is that anything is really an improvement over stock so it all works out.

[badazz81z28]

I think people forget that when running a business that requires manual labor, every minute has a cost. I noticed this when doing performance and maintenance work on European cars. People would know the cost of the part and then complain that you have to charge "so much" for the labor when it took hours to do what they wanted. Composites are this x10. It takes HOURS of tedious labor to get the panel right. Those molds then have a limited number of uses before they have to be redone. So the added cost is in the labor PLUS the already higher cost of materials. Luckily carbon is getting cheaper with wider adoption. Slowly, but it is. 30 years ago a guy at home couldn't just order up a kit online to make his own panel.

You'll still end up spending over $1,000 minimum to make your own panel. And that's if you don't screw up. So $2,000 for a hood you just order and bolt-on (regardless of fit) isn't THAT terrible. Am I spending that much? Hell no, not right now! I need to be a better driver before I chase 1/10 of a second per lap with expensive lightwieght parts.

As for the complaints about carbon over fiberglass....it's still far less than the weight of a factory panel with the "look." So unless you are building a Lemans Prototype, that 3 extra pounds the fiberglass "adds" to your composite hood is nothing. I'm totally guilty of getting caught up in the whole "I have to have the absolute best if I have it!" But the reality is that anything is really an improvement over stock so it all works out.

More like $4000 for a old muscle car CF hood. $2600+ship from Anvil. I agree labor takes time...That's why in any business, you need to sell products to stay afloat. You can't make a single product...sell a single product and make a business. The problem is when you sell an item for a ton of money, you only sell a few products. You sell them for a price many will pay, you'll sell more product. In the end that is more sustainable for a continuing business. You're gonna run out of clients in short time unless you widely expand your catalog with ridiculous prices which will end up costing you even more money. We all like the high life too...but everyone expects to get rich off this and that drives the price up too. I'm not educated in any automotive trade skills, but I know how to swap a starter, an alternator or a water pump. Should I get paid $80 an hour to do this? I don't even get that in my Master Degree educated profession in aviation. We pay our automotive folks a ton of money and it shows with all the builds they do. You can easily get a 100% carbon hood for your modern camaro for less than half of that for the older cars. I suspect this is the "quantity" they sell to achieve the price point. Probably got the wrong stuff, but the CF sheets don't appear to be horribly expensive https://www.fibreglast.com/product/P...rePreg_Fabrics

[dhutton]

I’m going to guess the market for carbon fiber parts for muscle cars is small regardless of price so selling cheap on the assumption it will drive volumes higher may not be accurate.

Just my opinion.

Don

[badazz81z28]

I’m going to guess the market for carbon fiber parts for muscle cars is small regardless of price so selling cheap on the assumption it will drive volumes higher may not be accurate.

Just my opinion.

Don

I don't know...A lot of companies make a living selling OER steel body parts. Hypothetical...if you needed a trunk lid and you could either get a carbon Fiber lid or a steel lid for roughly the same price, which one would you buy? I seems more people modify their cars these days versus concourse restorations.

[dhutton]

I don't know...A lot of companies make a living selling OER steel body parts. Hypothetical...if you needed a trunk lid and you could either get a carbon Fiber lid or a steel lid for roughly the same price, which one would you buy? I seems more people modify their cars these days versus concourse restorations.

I seriously doubt that carbon parts will ever be the same price as steel. At least not anytime soon.

Just my opinion,
Don

[jlcustomz]

At some point in time , I want to try doing a cf overlay on some existing custom parts I made. A rep at one supplier (fiberglast??) once told me I could use surfboard resin instead of epoxy, which would also be better near high heat , such as an under hood cover. Black pigment is many times used in overlays.

Biggest time thing I see with overlaying existing is you basically have to bodywork (sand ,recoat or spray, & repeat) the thing till smooth enough to then buff. Some finish up process with a few coats of automotive clear, which sands easier. Also have concern with how hard it would be for fabric to stay laying down perfect in the resin on it's own till dry, particularly at hard curves & angled corners. Would have to be lighter fabric for sure. Also cutting parts of fabric to line up on overlay I think would be even harder than laying in mold.
As far as any composite product weight goes, least resin per fabric ratio is the main thing to provide lighter weight. The stiffness of cf or even s-glass over standard glass allows for overall thinner product with acceptable stiffness.

[OG-Stage2Buick]

About 20 yrs ago I did a tour at VFN fiberglass near Chicago . During the tour of the facilities they they showed us the massive roll of fiberglass material they used for producing their parts . Right next to that was a roll of carbon fiber also . They said any thing in our catalog we sell in fiberglass we can make with carbon fiber . For about double the cost .Im sure they are no stranger musclecars . I know they do custom orders too . It may be worthwhile to contact them or another vendor that is already established , local , and experienced with older vehicles .

[TheJDMan]

I don't know...A lot of companies make a living selling OER steel body parts. Hypothetical...if you needed a trunk lid and you could either get a carbon Fiber lid or a steel lid for roughly the same price, which one would you buy? I seems more people modify their cars these days versus concourse restorations.

AMD currently sells a 70-81 Camaro rear deck lid for $159.99. I don't see anyone selling a CF version of that deck lid for anything remotely close to that price anytime soon.

[badazz81z28]

AMD currently sells a 70-81 Camaro rear deck lid for $159.99. I don't see anyone selling a CF version of that deck lid for anything remotely close to that price anytime soon.

Not in this industry. It’s not about providing a product, it’s about making money. I know you won’t see parts this cheap, but if you could, who would pick the reproduction steel over CF?

[southernfriedcj]

Not in this industry. It’s not about providing a product, it’s about making money. I know you won’t see parts this cheap, but if you could, who would pick the reproduction steel over CF?

I'd take steel over CF any day. I don't need to save 3 pounds and I can't stand the look of CF. Looks ricer to me.

When it coms to aesthetics on a muscle car/pony car I like stock. Billet makes me puke. If I want frenched lights and bumpers I want them on an old Merc.

[dhutton]

I'd take steel over CF any day. I don't need to save 3 pounds and I can't stand the look of CF. Looks ricer to me.

When it coms to aesthetics on a muscle car/pony car I like stock. Billet makes me puke. If I want frenched lights and bumpers I want them on an old Merc.

Don’t hold back. Tell us what you really think....

[drummerdad]

Carbon fiber done right is going to cost. In order to make the part stronger and lighter, it needs the excessive resin removed. This is where the weight savings comes in. The reason fiberglass hoods weigh the same as cheap import CF hoods is they didnt remove the resin. Its still heavy, and weak. In aviation we build and repair structural components made from CF and it is a very specific process and time consuming.

Then there is the people factor. I attempted to get something going a few years ago with a 3rd gen f-body club I was in. I found a guy who would make me a mold for the hoods. I can work carbon fiber myself. I went to a short school for Bell helicopter to learn how to do it. It just seemed easier to get another guy to make the molds. The cost wasnt bad. When I posted about the opportunity online, I got 20 requests for CF hoods....in about 7 or 8 different styles. It would take 10+ hoods to make the money back for the mold. Everyone wants something unique, which costs even more. Race weight CF is the best for weight savings, and probably closest to aviation standards. Thats why its expensive.

It would be tough to keep people happy, and make money. Most people are cheap. I am for sure. If I need CF parts, Ill make them myself. If you just want the look, 3M makes a di-noc textured sticker that looks close to CF.

[Canadianwraith]

Someone suggested Feathercarbon for panels. I made the mistake of ordering a deck lid 2 months ago. They won't even reply to emails about delivery after several "I'll find where it's at"

[badazz81z28]

Someone suggested Feathercarbon for panels. I made the mistake of ordering a deck lid 2 months ago. They won't even reply to emails about delivery after several "I'll find where it's at"

well FWIW...I bought one from Anvil in November and still waiting.

[dhutton]

well FWIW...I bought one from Anvil in November and still waiting.

Did they give you a date? I tell folks to order their stuff at least six months before you need it unless it is in stock.

Don

[badazz81z28]

They said Feb.

[raustinss]

That means april lol

[Canadianwraith]

That time frame is crazy, but I could live with it if they gave a date. I've sent an email a week for the last 3 weeks, no reply. Just tell me if you made the mistake of working naked and your junk has been glued to your forearm for the last week; weird yes but I at least have a reason.
On a plus, going to Kindig-it this Friday in Utah; should be an awesome trip!