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    1. #1
      Join Date
      Oct 2015
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      Western Mass
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      Country Flag: United States

      SPAL, Derale, Flex-A-Lite, Mishimoto Radiator Fans?

      Aside from trying to adapt OEM Fans to our cars, I know many have tried the major aftermarket fans... was wondering what your experience might be with these four (Spal, Derale, Flex-a-Lite, Mishimoto) aftermarket brands? Quality, performance, durability, and are they a manufacturer who stands behind their product... are my initial questions. Have you used a big single, a pair of smaller fans, and did they deliver the CFM you needed?

      Also, did you use a aftermarket ready-made fan controller or did you go custom? And lastly, do you think these four companies are 100% truthful when they state XXXX CFM, knowing that most likely that's a fan they rated in a free-standing mode, no radiator or shroud in most cases?


      Personally, I'm dealing with a '69 Camaro, BBC with iron heads, serpentine belts, and Vintage Air. My radiator is a Cold Case with 2-tubes of 1.250" diameter. The radiator has a 23" X 17" core section, and in my case I'm looking for a low-profile, high CFM fan.

      Thanks in advance for sharing your experiences.
      '69 LeMans Blue Coupe, White Interior, Massaged .030" over 454, Super T10 4-Speed,
      Holley 4150, Pertronix Ignition, CompCams Xtreme Energy XS274S, 781 Oval Port Heads


    2. #2
      Join Date
      Feb 2019
      Location
      Kankakee IL
      Posts
      362
      I put a Mishimoto in my '10 GT and it was beautifully made. They have holiday sales occasionally.

      Tracey


    3. #3
      Join Date
      Aug 2004
      Location
      NJ
      Posts
      1,293
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      Spal builds the fans for many OEM's. I've used and would trust them and their specs. I used dual fans, 11 inch I believe they were, on 500 horse small block. No cooling issues at all and moved a crazy amount of air.

    4. #4
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      Sep 2016
      Location
      Bakersfield, CA
      Posts
      603
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      My C&R came with dual SPAL fans, they seem to work great.

      I have used Flex-a-Lite in the past and was not impressed.

      I have used Derale and it was great except for being really loud.
      http://www.TheFOAT.com/92GTA
      1969 Pontiac Firebird
      w/535ci IAII aluminum block, Dailey dry sump, Holley EFI (full road race build). Primer black w/black interior.
      1992 Pontiac Trans Am GTA w/SLP Performance Package. Dark Jade Grey Metallic, grey leather, T-Tops.

    5. #5
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      Nov 2006
      Location
      Mountain Springs, Texas
      Posts
      4,488
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      I recommend Spal. I’ve used flexalite and I think their cfm numbers are overstated.

      Don
      1969 Camaro - LSA 6L90E AME sub/IRS
      1957 Buick Estate Wagon
      1959 El Camino - Ironworks frame
      1956 Cameo - full C5 suspension/drivetrain
      1959 Apache Fleetside

    6. #6
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      Feb 2007
      Location
      Tinley Park, IL
      Posts
      1,163
      Country Flag: United States
      Dual SPAL fans for me, had them for 8 years or more (about 15k miles) and they are great. With a 400hp SBO, I don't think the second fan ever needs to run. Even sitting in traffic on Power Tour in 95* heat. Part of my Spring start up procedure includes testing both fans just so I know the secondary fan still works!

      I also had their older style controller, which I thought was junk. Never worked right and then just stopped working. I used normal on/off temp switches for a while, now I let the EFI control the fans.

      Nick ~
      1969 Cutlass

    7. #7
      Join Date
      Aug 2007
      Posts
      641
      Spal has been good for me. Controlled by ECM temp sensor in the cylinder head. Over 12 years on my LS swapped Jeep TJ with no problems.

    8. #8
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      Oct 2015
      Location
      Western Mass
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      Probably going to narrow it down to Spal or Derale if I can't fit a big OEM fan in there. I've watched a dozen YouTube videos of these fans being compared to eBay no-names which look like unbranded Mishimotos... the Spal and Derale fans always outperform everything else with the exception of something like the Lincoln/Taurus fans. The Spal and Derale fans are noisier but I think they're turning a ton more RPM than the others. The curved blades seem to be the "quieter" ones or at least that's the appearance. One thing to keep in mind is that these two companies build at least 2-3 different versions of 12" fans. Some are only rated for 800 CFM, others as high as 2000 CFM but of course the depth changes dramatically with the blade section getting thicker, as well as the motor section.

      It's been suggested to me that to cool a mild BBC at slow MPH speeds on a hot day, you'd need 2500 CFM as a minimum, maybe 3000 CFM being the sweet spot.
      '69 LeMans Blue Coupe, White Interior, Massaged .030" over 454, Super T10 4-Speed,
      Holley 4150, Pertronix Ignition, CompCams Xtreme Energy XS274S, 781 Oval Port Heads


    9. #9
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      Oct 2015
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      Western Mass
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      I emailed Spal and got back a very interesting reply from one of their application engineers. He said unfortunately YouTube videos usually aren't a very good test of fans. He said he'd ignore anything I gleaned from that video, other than the SPAL fan was better performing than the cheap ebay "equivalent" fan. The test method isn’t accurate enough to make any real CFM claims. Spal rates the tested fan at 1226 CFM at free air conditions, and once you put it behind a radiator the flow will decrease. So it’s impossible he was getting a true 1800 CFM on his meter. A lot of time people will take airspeed measurements in ft/min and think they are getting ft³/min. Very different units, as one takes into account the area of the fan.

      He also said to take the 3,000 CFM suggestion for a BBC with a grain of salt. Because people, generally speaking, don’t understand airflow very well. So they throw out 3,000 CFM as a bench mark. He said it’s more important to consider the flow at static pressure, and usually people get into trouble when the fans aren’t powerful enough to overcome the restriction of their system. Most automotive cooling systems are usually 0.6 inH20 to 1.2 inH20 in static pressure. So 0.6 inH20 would be a thin radiator and no condenser and 1.2 inH20 would be a thick multipass radiator + AC Condenser. So that gives you a better base point to compare fan performance. If you don’t know what static pressure to use, I would compare fan performance at 0.8 and 1.0 inH20. That would give you a much better idea of what true flow you could expect through the system.

      When it comes to shroud design, a good shroud will help the performance of the system, a poor shroud design will hurt the performance of the system. If you have room to fit the ¾” box shroud WITH a powerful fan, it will be an improvement. The key is going to be the space to fit a powerful fan. He said that if I don’t have room for a powerful fan, I would mount the fan(s) directly to the core face and fit the most powerful fan as possible in the space you have.

      He noted that he thinnest fans Spal has are the weakest fans they have. But they start at 2” overall thickness. These fans usually don’t cool vehicles with thick radiators, or Rad + AC condenser. So Typically he'd recommend a medium profile fan or better. The Medium profile fans start at 2.5”, but realistically you would be much better off with a paddle blade/high performance fan. The high performance fans are usually 3.5” to 3.75” thick.

      I have to try and figure out scientific terms he mentioned, and of course... see what the max size fans could fit between the radiator and the serpentine stuff. I thought the most interesting thing was that he would mount the fans without a shroud to ensure I got maximum pull thru the radiator.
      '69 LeMans Blue Coupe, White Interior, Massaged .030" over 454, Super T10 4-Speed,
      Holley 4150, Pertronix Ignition, CompCams Xtreme Energy XS274S, 781 Oval Port Heads


    10. #10
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      Nov 2006
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      Mountain Springs, Texas
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      Quote Originally Posted by OldTimer View Post
      I thought the most interesting thing was that he would mount the fans without a shroud to ensure I got maximum pull thru the radiator.
      I interpreted it as meaning if you didn’t have room for a 3/4” shroud then to mount the most powerful fan you can fit directly to the core. If you have room then you will move more air with a shroud.

      Thanks for sharing the info.

      Don
      1969 Camaro - LSA 6L90E AME sub/IRS
      1957 Buick Estate Wagon
      1959 El Camino - Ironworks frame
      1956 Cameo - full C5 suspension/drivetrain
      1959 Apache Fleetside

    11. #11
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      Quote Originally Posted by dhutton View Post
      I interpreted it as meaning if you didn’t have room for a 3/4” shroud then to mount the most powerful fan you can fit directly to the core. If you have room then you will move more air with a shroud.

      Thanks for sharing the info.

      Don
      Yeah Don... that's the impression I got, but I was surprised Spal even suggested mounting direct to the radiator. Whats been interesting was that I also contacted Ron Davis, Derale, and C&R and everyone seems OK with a direct mount... if space is an issue. The point they all made is to try and get the maximum CFM fans in there. Some would even go to a 1/2" shroud if that would help because while the real "pull" is right at the fan, any kind of shroud would pull a decent amount through the areas not directly in front of the fan. It makes sense. C&R only offers one setup for a BBC '69 Camaro and it's a direct mount.

      Name:  15-10011_1.jpg
Views: 3422
Size:  118.0 KB

      Ron Davis has a shallow dual fan setup for the '69 Camaro BBC.



      This is probably similar to what I'll wind up with (modeled in Photoshop). I have access to a CNC Plasma table a good TIG guy who can use a brake to bend the cutout pattern.



      I also have a Ford-designed Volvo fan, 2-speed, 17" with a 15-1/2" & 8 curved blade impeller, very similar to the Taurus fan. Supposedly good for well over 3500 CFM. If I can combine that with a shallow shroud I may try to make it work. Inevitably, whether its a bigger single or a pair of 12" fans, everybody says you need to use flaps in the void areas. The direct mount will be my last resort, really prefer a shrouded setup.
      '69 LeMans Blue Coupe, White Interior, Massaged .030" over 454, Super T10 4-Speed,
      Holley 4150, Pertronix Ignition, CompCams Xtreme Energy XS274S, 781 Oval Port Heads


    12. #12
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      Oct 2015
      Location
      Western Mass
      Posts
      227
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      Thought I'd update this thread now that my car is back on the road. I wound up designing a shroud to fit the Cold Case radiator and the design gave me just enough space to mount a dual 12" fan setup that came out of a Ford Contour SVT. This fan combo has been used in big blocks before but with a bigger radiator to it was a crap shoot for me. The fans are very high quality with Bosch motors. They seem to be pulling a ton of air, but it turns out its a fringe setup... the fans don't seem to be able to pull _enough_ air once the car is warmed up to get at/below the pwm temp sensor which is a 195° unit. And I have tried 160° and 180° thermostats, and 180° and 195° PWM temp sensors. So once the car warms up, the temp stays at about 200° and the fans never shut off. Stopped in traffic it'll go up to 220° and a little higher after 15 minutes of sitting. They are pulling through the radiator and the VA Condenser so I'm thinking about other fan options at this point. But here's some pix of the setup.



      That was my preliminary design sketch. The radiator has a 23.00" X 16.85" and the finished shroud measures roughly 22.875" X 16.750" with an inside depth of .950". The shroud is sealed with high density foam around the perimeter to minimize sucking in warm engine air.



      The above picture shows the finished shroud with fans mounted and twelve (12) BeCool rubber flaps mounted to allow airflow at highway speeds. The diagonal location of the fans actually allows better centering of the fans and also gave me some clearance space by not hitting any pulleys.



      I have a full width close-out panel up top to ensure that air coming into the grill doesn't slip over the radiator/condenser. You can also see how tight the space is between the serpentine front runner setup is and the fans. These fans are pretty shallow too.



      In the picture above you can see the grill opening (grill shell is being painted) with the full-width Vintage Air condenser in front of the radiator and core support. It is mounted to VA's specs using their brackets, there's maybe a 3/4" gap between the condenser and radiator core.



      Most 1st Gen Camaro's have another way highway air can be diverted and that's through the huge opening between the core support and the lower front valance. The opening is about 4' wide and maybe 6" in the center tapering to about 2" at the extreme ends. That "hole" provides a much easier exit for highway air that buffers against the condenser and core support.



      There's a company that makes an aluminum .040" thick lower close-out panel for 67-68 Camaro's where the front section closes the gap pretty well. There's a flat section that is fitted to the same bolts that hold the front chin spoiler and then there's a vertical section that closes off most of the area under the core support. I'm thinking of fabricating something similar, but my idea would be "L" shipped and end at the core support. The subframe horns do a decent job of shutting down some flow to the left and right, so perhaps boxing in that area is all that is needed. I'm going to build a sample out of cardboard to get the size and angle s right before I build an aluminum or fiberglass piece. LOL... stay tuned for an update.

      Since I have depth issues, I have to stick with as shallow and as powerful a fan as I can squeeze in there. Right now, I'm not sure anything SPAL has will fit my shroud or space. I'm thinking There's a couple of DeRale high output 12" models that might fit, and maybe a Mishimoto. And while I'm skeptical, I could also try what the engineer at SPAL suggested... mounting the fans directly to the radiator core. I've seen cars with this kind of setup and I usually shake my head... but I guess it works.



      Thats C&R's Big Block setup. Going with a "shroudless" approach opens up other fan options including deeper fans, and even brushless fans. There's no shroud so highway air should flow like crazy? Its just up to the fans to work really well at low MPH speeds in traffic. So if anyone reading this is running a "shroudless" setup in a similar ride, I'd love to hear from you.

      Mike
      '69 LeMans Blue Coupe, White Interior, Massaged .030" over 454, Super T10 4-Speed,
      Holley 4150, Pertronix Ignition, CompCams Xtreme Energy XS274S, 781 Oval Port Heads


    13. #13
      Join Date
      Jul 2018
      Posts
      433
      20211011_201943 by F G, on Flickr

      20211011_201906 by F G, on Flickr

      20211011_193907 by F G, on Flickr

    14. #14
      Join Date
      Nov 2006
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      Mountain Springs, Texas
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      Quote Originally Posted by OldTimer View Post
      Thought I'd update this thread now that my car is back on the road. I wound up designing a shroud to fit the Cold Case radiator and the design gave me just enough space to mount a dual 12" fan setup that came out of a Ford Contour SVT. This fan combo has been used in big blocks before but with a bigger radiator to it was a crap shoot for me. The fans are very high quality with Bosch motors. They seem to be pulling a ton of air, but it turns out its a fringe setup... the fans don't seem to be able to pull _enough_ air once the car is warmed up to get at/below the pwm temp sensor which is a 195° unit. And I have tried 160° and 180° thermostats, and 180° and 195° PWM temp sensors. So once the car warms up, the temp stays at about 200° and the fans never shut off. Stopped in traffic it'll go up to 220° and a little higher after 15 minutes of sitting. They are pulling through the radiator and the VA Condenser so I'm thinking about other fan options at this point. But here's some pix of the setup.



      That was my preliminary design sketch. The radiator has a 23.00" X 16.85" and the finished shroud measures roughly 22.875" X 16.750" with an inside depth of .950". The shroud is sealed with high density foam around the perimeter to minimize sucking in warm engine air.



      The above picture shows the finished shroud with fans mounted and twelve (12) BeCool rubber flaps mounted to allow airflow at highway speeds. The diagonal location of the fans actually allows better centering of the fans and also gave me some clearance space by not hitting any pulleys.



      I have a full width close-out panel up top to ensure that air coming into the grill doesn't slip over the radiator/condenser. You can also see how tight the space is between the serpentine front runner setup is and the fans. These fans are pretty shallow too.



      In the picture above you can see the grill opening (grill shell is being painted) with the full-width Vintage Air condenser in front of the radiator and core support. It is mounted to VA's specs using their brackets, there's maybe a 3/4" gap between the condenser and radiator core.



      Most 1st Gen Camaro's have another way highway air can be diverted and that's through the huge opening between the core support and the lower front valance. The opening is about 4' wide and maybe 6" in the center tapering to about 2" at the extreme ends. That "hole" provides a much easier exit for highway air that buffers against the condenser and core support.



      There's a company that makes an aluminum .040" thick lower close-out panel for 67-68 Camaro's where the front section closes the gap pretty well. There's a flat section that is fitted to the same bolts that hold the front chin spoiler and then there's a vertical section that closes off most of the area under the core support. I'm thinking of fabricating something similar, but my idea would be "L" shipped and end at the core support. The subframe horns do a decent job of shutting down some flow to the left and right, so perhaps boxing in that area is all that is needed. I'm going to build a sample out of cardboard to get the size and angle s right before I build an aluminum or fiberglass piece. LOL... stay tuned for an update.

      Since I have depth issues, I have to stick with as shallow and as powerful a fan as I can squeeze in there. Right now, I'm not sure anything SPAL has will fit my shroud or space. I'm thinking There's a couple of DeRale high output 12" models that might fit, and maybe a Mishimoto. And while I'm skeptical, I could also try what the engineer at SPAL suggested... mounting the fans directly to the radiator core. I've seen cars with this kind of setup and I usually shake my head... but I guess it works.



      Thats C&R's Big Block setup. Going with a "shroudless" approach opens up other fan options including deeper fans, and even brushless fans. There's no shroud so highway air should flow like crazy? Its just up to the fans to work really well at low MPH speeds in traffic. So if anyone reading this is running a "shroudless" setup in a similar ride, I'd love to hear from you.

      Mike
      Positive and negative battery connection wire gauge looks a little small. Have you measured the battery voltage at the fan controller when the fans are running max speed and the temperature is 220? Should be 13.5 volts plus/minus…

      Don
      1969 Camaro - LSA 6L90E AME sub/IRS
      1957 Buick Estate Wagon
      1959 El Camino - Ironworks frame
      1956 Cameo - full C5 suspension/drivetrain
      1959 Apache Fleetside

    15. #15
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      Quote Originally Posted by dhutton View Post
      Positive and negative battery connection wire gauge looks a little small. Have you measured the battery voltage at the fan controller when the fans are running max speed and the temperature is 220? Should be 13.5 volts plus/minus…

      Don
      I guess the other part of the question is: is your alternator turning fast enough at idle to generate roughly 13.5 volts?

      If your fans are getting low voltage they will turn slower and move less air….

      Don
      1969 Camaro - LSA 6L90E AME sub/IRS
      1957 Buick Estate Wagon
      1959 El Camino - Ironworks frame
      1956 Cameo - full C5 suspension/drivetrain
      1959 Apache Fleetside

    16. #16
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      Oct 2015
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      Western Mass
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      Don...

      Wiring from the fans motors to the pwm is 8 AWG positive, 10 AWG negative. Alternator is a 150 AMP (factory test ticket says peak 153 AMPs) Powermaster. Wiring from Alt to battery is 4 AWG. The PWM is connected directly to battery terminals with 8 AWG even though Carl told me 10 AWG is sufficient. I don't know that any of my wiring needs to increase in size... I used 8 AWG & 6 AWG because that's what Ford ran from the factory harness to the plug on the side of the motors. I'd have to rethink the connectors to find something that would accept... 6 AWG?

      I haven't checked voltage at idle but I will. So your suggesting that perhaps the fans aren't getting full voltage at idle or at say... 2000 rpm running down the highway? I guess anything is possible. A smaller pulley would spin the alternator faster. I'll measure it and maybe try to figure out what rpm it's turning at.

      I may make a quickie lower closeout panel out of Masonite and see it that pushes more air through the condenser/radiator. I also was thinking of mounting my iPhone endoscope camera under the hood aimed at the flaps to see if they are opening at highway speeds.

      LOL... if the car ran at 200 and never wavered regardless of speed or ambient temp I'd be fine with that. You think a 195 thermostat would change anything?

      Mike
      '69 LeMans Blue Coupe, White Interior, Massaged .030" over 454, Super T10 4-Speed,
      Holley 4150, Pertronix Ignition, CompCams Xtreme Energy XS274S, 781 Oval Port Heads


    17. #17
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      Quote Originally Posted by OldTimer View Post
      Don...

      Wiring from the fans motors to the pwm is 8 AWG positive, 10 AWG negative. Alternator is a 150 AMP (factory test ticket says peak 153 AMPs) Powermaster. Wiring from Alt to battery is 4 AWG. The PWM is connected directly to battery terminals with 8 AWG even though Carl told me 10 AWG is sufficient. I don't know that any of my wiring needs to increase in size... I used 8 AWG & 6 AWG because that's what Ford ran from the factory harness to the plug on the side of the motors. I'd have to rethink the connectors to find something that would accept... 6 AWG?

      I haven't checked voltage at idle but I will. So your suggesting that perhaps the fans aren't getting full voltage at idle or at say... 2000 rpm running down the highway? I guess anything is possible. A smaller pulley would spin the alternator faster. I'll measure it and maybe try to figure out what rpm it's turning at.

      I may make a quickie lower closeout panel out of Masonite and see it that pushes more air through the condenser/radiator. I also was thinking of mounting my iPhone endoscope camera under the hood aimed at the flaps to see if they are opening at highway speeds.

      LOL... if the car ran at 200 and never wavered regardless of speed or ambient temp I'd be fine with that. You think a 195 thermostat would change anything?

      Mike
      I’m suggesting you should measure the battery voltage at the controller when the car is 220 degrees at idle to see if low voltage is part of the root cause. You run hotter when the car is not moving at speed if I’m following you correctly. It seems that would be the first area in need of investigation.

      Is your alternator one of those internally referenced ones that only has the alternator output connection?

      Don
      1969 Camaro - LSA 6L90E AME sub/IRS
      1957 Buick Estate Wagon
      1959 El Camino - Ironworks frame
      1956 Cameo - full C5 suspension/drivetrain
      1959 Apache Fleetside

    18. #18
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      Nov 2018
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      Permacool makes a pretty strong, reliable fan, or at least they did 10 years ago when I last bought a set. They have a 12 inch diameter fan rated for 3300CFM. No idea how they measure that, but when I used a pair of their 14 inch 2950CFM fan on a Tahoe with a Delta Current Control fan controller, the Tahoe stayed cool on the hottest Oklahoma days, and the air conditioning worked far better at stoplights. With the factory clutch fan, the AC started struggling at stoplights. If you use these, you'll want to modify the shroud to include rings around the blade circumference since these guys don't have any.

      On the wiring, the wiring to each individual fan may be acceptable, but both are trying to pull power from the battery over the same pair of wires. Those should be larger than the individual fan wires, and both the individual fans should have the same gauge on both hot and ground. If you're using 8 on hot, should be 8 on ground, and from the controller to the battery should be at least 6 as twice as much power must travel these wires as what goes to each individual fan.

      More drastic:
      If more room is needed for fans, is it possible to move the radiator forward any? It would require modifying the rad support, and perhaps the hood latch support. Or, if there's room, open the rad support a few more inches and put in a wider radiator. That support looks like the radiator could be as much as 6 inches wider. Be a lot of effort, but folks that put V8s into S10s found that this gives them enough room to put a decent cooling fan setup in front of an engine in a truck that was never designed for a V8.
      2021 Durango R/T
      2005 Dakota beater
      2003 Dakota project-o-mobile

    19. #19
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      Western Mass
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      Wasn't aware of the PermaCool fans so thank you for sharing that info. If I get to that point where I'm considering other fans, they might make decent candidates. I photoshopped my bare shroud with two PermaCool 12" fans just because I have time LOL on my hands and its so easy for me to do.



      I would suspect that if nothing else, the PermaCool frameless design would allow quite a bit more airflow through the shroud at highway speeds. And if these fans actually make 3300 CFM (each) that's probably double (or more) than what my Ford fans will pull together. Have to wonder what two of these puppies sound like at full speed. Depth wise, they would probably fit OK, and I'm not bothered by a frameless design its not much more than a mechanical fan and I wouldn't be sticking my fingers in there while the engine was running.



      The pwm I'm using features a "soft" start and stop so amperage draw isn't that big a concern. But I have yet to see a eFan setup with anything bigger than #8 AWG. Please note, I'm not having any problems getting my fans to run and it looks like they are pulling nicely. My main concern is getting the car to run at/under 195° so the existing dual fans will turn off and let the highway air flow through the condenser/radiator combo. No chance of moving the core support (and AC condenser/radiator) forward without a lot of metalwork.
      '69 LeMans Blue Coupe, White Interior, Massaged .030" over 454, Super T10 4-Speed,
      Holley 4150, Pertronix Ignition, CompCams Xtreme Energy XS274S, 781 Oval Port Heads


    20. #20
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      Mar 2020
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      199
      I recently had a cooling issue due to some garbage cooling fans. I bought a new radiator with 2 fans, supposedly rated for 1300CFM ea.

      My S10 would not cool down unless at highway speeds.... this is an indication of enough radiator, but not enough fan.
      I bought 2 replacement SPAL 12" fans that were also 1300CFM fans.

      What is surprising as the originals were rated at 80watts, or roughly 6.6A which I verified.
      The Spal draws 14.2A for the supposed same flow.
      What I can say is Spal rates their fans at a normal pressure drop experienced from a typical radiator & most others are based on free flow.

      With the new fans, I currently hold 185 deg temperature with both running at low speed whereas the originals were running flat out while only maintaining 220deg.

      The ones you show are the same size, draw less than midway between my 2 examples, but flow 3300CFM????
      I'm skeptical of those numbers.

      Here is what I used.
      https://www.summitracing.com/parts/spu-ix-30102029

      Sound wise, the new ones are noticeable outside the vehicle, whereas my originals were nearly silent, but worthless.
      Inside the car, I cannot hear them.

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