Results 1 to 16 of 16
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Nov 2019
    Posts
    15

    Front suspension money about to be spent

    New to the forum, hello!

    A little about my car:
    1966 Pontiac Le Mans, KRE Headed 455 with Holley EFI, TKO 600, 373 12 bolt, 3550lbs, F-17x7 245/45/17 - R-17x8 275/40/17 , BFG Sport Comp 2s
    Primary use is spirited street driving with some friends who have Vettes/M3s and some moderate, say 3-4x a year, road course driving just for fun at our local track.


    Rear suspension - UMI adjustable uppers, braces, UMI Lowers w/ roto joints, Hotchkiss 1" drop springs with matched shocks, 1" hotchkiss sway bar between the lowers.
    Front suspension - It is getting redone this winter and so far my pile of parts is 1" drop hotchkiss springs with matched shocks, OEM C6 calipers and hoses, OEM C7 hubs, OEM C5 rotors and powerstop carbon/ceramic pads. Car already had a 1 5/16 sway bar on it.


    I am pretty set on using the C7 hubs. I have little interest in packing bearings anymore or using my fatigued stock spindles with 50+ years of hammer marks from ball joint and tie rod end changes. They have been hammered on a lot in 6 decades and it shows. 1" Taller ball joints with taller lowers that further drop my car, drum hubs, special brackets and tapered bearings I'd rather all stay away from honestly.. Anyway..

    I have read COUNTLESS debates on the ATS/Speedtech and CPP spindles. Democracy and free market can be unfair sometimes I guess I don't know what to say beyond that..
    I have also had an hour long talk with Mark at SC&C, very informative discussion.


    I understand the CPP part is made in China and cast from ductile iron, not forged. I worked for a shop in the early 2000s here in northeast ohio where we dropped dozens of full size 5000+lb pickups with cast in china ductile spindles from Belltech without a single failure. That said I am not opposed to saving for the Speedtech units from Mark but damn are they pricey after you buy the needed arms too... If the CPP spindles are truly junk by design then someone by now can surely post a link to a failure. Its been what, 7+ years and they have sold a ton of them I'm sure. Are the CPP spindles trash because of proven examples of failure or just negative hearsay? I do not want an unsafe part but I also do not want to pay 6x as much just because folks are bias against anything "made in china." Heck the Chengdu J-20 is "made in china" too!


    Option 1: $1,400 needed
    CPP spindles, SPC upper and lower a-arms with stock height Howe ball joints ordered from Mark


    Option 2: $2,400 needed
    Speedtech spindles and arms, SPC uppers and howe ball joints from mark, leaving stock lowers for now that have fresh Moogs in them.


    Option 3: $1,500 needed
    SPC upper and lowers from Mark with Howe tall ball joints, new drum hubs from OPGI, brackets from Kore3. ( Taper bearings not my nice OEM C7 hubs, HATE this idea )
    1966 Pontiac Le Mans - owned 19 years
    UMI rear suspension - front is pending...
    455/TKO600/12bolt

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Nov 2019
    Posts
    15
    Most importantly, here is a pic of my car!



    Name:  Car.jpg
Views: 299
Size:  193.9 KB
    1966 Pontiac Le Mans - owned 19 years
    UMI rear suspension - front is pending...
    455/TKO600/12bolt


  3. #3
    Join Date
    Nov 2019
    Posts
    15
    No input or real experiences out there? Nothing...? I guess the search contiunes!
    1966 Pontiac Le Mans - owned 19 years
    UMI rear suspension - front is pending...
    455/TKO600/12bolt

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Oct 2018
    Location
    San Jose, CA
    Posts
    459

    Front suspension money about to be spent

    Sounds like option 2 is your best bet.

    Personally Iím fine with tapered bearings and recommend using the Kore3 hub which looks nice. I would go that route. Call it option 4. Talk with Tobin to decide if the race hub makes sense or the standard one for your setup.

    But if you hate the idea of tapered bearings donít do it ! They use them in NASCAR and many many race classes. Itís not hard to pack bearings IMO and doesnít have to be done very often. You are creating a problem where one doesnít exist.

    If you want the C7 hub get the ST setup tho.
    1971 Camaro - 406 / T56
    2016 Camaro SS convertible
    2018 Colorado 4x4

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Peoria, AZ
    Posts
    1,591
    Country Flag: United States
    I can only speak to the ATS spindles, no experience with CPP. The increased Ackerman the ATS spindles provides makes them worth the money to me. They woke my car up and it was pretty good on the stock metric spindle.

    In the grand scheme, the extra money is minimal when you are taking about a known critical part vs an unknown.
    Lance
    1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Nov 2019
    Posts
    15
    I have not been able to find a CPP failure yet but that doesn't mean it has not happened. My biggest gripe with the ST spindle is aluminum is not as tough as cast ductile to begin with, but their product is a forged aluminum I suppose. Had they made their piece from cast steel let alone forged I would feel much better about them both. They also make you buy $400 steering arms so that little hidden gem is there too. $1,700 alone for the Speedtechs when you add in the arms.

    Tapered bearings work but jeeze anymore hubs are dirt cheap. I bought ACDelco C7 hubs off rockauto for $88 a piece and what is stamped right on them? "SKF"
    1966 Pontiac Le Mans - owned 19 years
    UMI rear suspension - front is pending...
    455/TKO600/12bolt

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Peoria, AZ
    Posts
    1,591
    Country Flag: United States
    You seem to be only concerned about strength in your comments...are you at all concerned about better geometry for better performance?

    This is where the ATS shines the brightest...
    Lance
    1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Nov 2019
    Posts
    15
    Quote Originally Posted by SSLance View Post
    You seem to be only concerned about strength in your comments...are you at all concerned about better geometry for better performance?

    This is where the ATS shines the brightest...

    Agreed, and that is super important to me as well but I am NOT looking to build a race car. Just better performance for the once in awhile that I want to push it a little bit. I am far from a "money is no object" portion of my life so a bit of compromised performance is fine with me so long as the parts are safe and it saves me $1,300.

    My car now had an SSBC 11" front disc conversion. My factory stock drum spindles and hubs are long gone. It has recently occurred to me the spindles SSBC included in that kit some 10 years ago when I put it on were probably not factory spec. To go the KORE3 route I need to source 55 year old spindles and replacement drum hubs. ( Same price as the CPP upright by itself )

    The ATS I'm sure offers some nice upgraded geometry over the CPP units. My question is, is it $1,300 upgraded geometry? That money can go lots of places in a hot rod as we all know...

    If it is purely a geometry thing I am good with the CPP uprights. I cruised it for years in my 20s with shot bushings and a loose steering box and loved every minute of it so any improvement over those days is great. I do not have the "spare no expense always get the best" type of money sadly but safety is #1.

    If it is a safety stand point and someone had some links to proven CPP part failures then there is no way ill put the CPP uprights on my car even with the C7 SKF hubs I have new sitting in the box. That is the info I am after.
    1966 Pontiac Le Mans - owned 19 years
    UMI rear suspension - front is pending...
    455/TKO600/12bolt

  9. #9
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Stanislaus County Ca.
    Posts
    114
    Country Flag: United States
    Your stock ones lasted 50+ yrs. safely and got you around the tack 3-4 x a yr. if you donít want to pony up for the fancy upgraded hot rod stuff just get another set of OEM quality, should last you another 50 and save you some coin.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Nov 2019
    Posts
    15
    Quote Originally Posted by ilikeike View Post
    Your stock ones lasted 50+ yrs. safely and got you around the tack 3-4 x a yr. if you don’t want to pony up for the fancy upgraded hot rod stuff just get another set of OEM quality, should last you another 50 and save you some coin.
    You would think that is the case (to save some coin that is) but a set of OEM spindles, OEM drum hubs and tall ball joints adds up FAST. $90/ball joint x4 + $200 or more for spindles + $120 in cast hubs + $125 for bolt on C6 caliper brackets is $850 or more shipped easily. And that is just OEM stuff, throw in the KORE3 hub units and you've nearly exceeded $1,100. Which is totally fine with me dollars and cents wise but WHY go that route and not the CPP? Everyone says to go that way instead but im dying to know WHY?

    It seems so easy, $89/SKF C7 bearing and $269 for a set of the CPPs and call it done. No brackets to bolt on, no tapered bearings with factory loose tolerance, no tall ball joints that will drop my cars height (which I DONT want).. Yet not a single soul on this forum recommends that combo. Something must have happened on this forum or too someone who uses the CPP uprights that no one wants to talk about for whatever reason? All I am getting is advice to go any direction other than the C7 OEM bearings and CPP uprights which is fine, but im puzzled as to why there is no reasoning? On paper the CPP is a no brainer so there has to be a reason none of you recommend that method.

    - Made in China? As I said up top, so is the Chengdu-J20.. Country of origin does not concern me. Anyone ever know an autoworker? My father worked for Ford for decades. The stories ive heard come from the Walton Hills Ohio stamping plant and Brookpark OH engine plant cant be too far off Chinese QC.
    - Ductile iron vs aluminum? DI is stronger than any aluminum, but not the factory forged steel piece so I can understand that. On the other hand thousands upon thousands of vehicles are riding on ductile spindles including dropped full size trucks doing Auto-X using Belltechs units. So long as the pin is forged or chromoly in a spinlde/pin piece then I see no issue with a DI upright. Especially one that uses an OEM GM Vette hub.

    At this point an expected response would be "If you're so sold on the CPP part then go buy that junk!" A better response would be help me understand why no one recommends what undoubtedly seems like the best option $ for $.

    Sorry for repeating myself over and over. I troubleshoot and improve industrial paint color matching equipment for a living and my job is to modify it to work better. I am ok with a set way of doing things but before I accept it I always demand some evidence why is a certain way is the best way.
    1966 Pontiac Le Mans - owned 19 years
    UMI rear suspension - front is pending...
    455/TKO600/12bolt

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Nov 2019
    Posts
    15
    Thought I just hit the jackpot with Ridetechs forged spindle offering that is 1.75" taller bj to bj but then keep reading... 2" drop... So close... I already have hotchkiss springs and do not want any more drop, especially from a spindle that brings tie rod ends closer to my tires sidewall.

    https://www.ridetech.com/products/co...spindles-pair/
    1966 Pontiac Le Mans - owned 19 years
    UMI rear suspension - front is pending...
    455/TKO600/12bolt

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    H-Town, TX
    Posts
    299
    Country Flag: United States
    I seem to remember people posting pics of broken CPP A arms- I think it was on a first gen Camaro.

    I agree with you that it is hard to justify the cost (sponsorship of sites like this help personally) but if you can’t find a failure it’s hard to hold it against the product.

    I researched it for my 72 TA and ended up buying a more expensive product. The positive reviews and customer support ended up being worth it in the end.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Nov 2019
    Posts
    15
    Undoubtedly A-arms and springs I spend top dollar for. SPC arms and Hotchkiss springs are all that will ever hold my car up. But an upright? I am having a hard time finding a spindle failure or even a picture of a broken spindle in general that was not in an accident.
    1966 Pontiac Le Mans - owned 19 years
    UMI rear suspension - front is pending...
    455/TKO600/12bolt

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Peoria, AZ
    Posts
    1,591
    Country Flag: United States
    Quote Originally Posted by Blue66 View Post
    Undoubtedly A-arms and springs I spend top dollar for. SPC arms and Hotchkiss springs are all that will ever hold my car up. But an upright? I am having a hard time finding a spindle failure or even a picture of a broken spindle in general that was not in an accident.
    I'm taking it you haven't looked as closely for SPC arm failures then?
    Lance
    1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Posts
    458
    Country Flag: United States
    I've got CPP spindles on Kore3 hubs with C6 brakes. A 2" drop was the only reasonable way to get big brakes on my car. Even at that I had to wait a few months for Tobin to make a special run of hubs since mine are a more limited market.

    It's a bbc 69 Impala so the spindles are about as loaded as they can be. I've never seen a documented instance of failure in a street car in spite of their country of origin.

    In hindsight, the only thing I would have done differently is go ahead with ridetech lower control arms and coil overs in order to compensate for the drop that came with the spindles and Global West lower control arms. I will probably do this anyway when I take the body off this winter.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Philipsburg, Pa
    Posts
    493
    Country Flag: United States
    Reading through this I think it really depends on what spindle you choose to go with. The UMI #cornermax stuff can work with any spindle and we can configure accordingly, if you're interested in UMI for the front.

    ramey
    Technical Support
    UMI Performance, Inc.
    [email protected]
    814.343.6315 x102

    Join us on Facebook!