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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
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    Macomb County, Michigan
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    26
    Country Flag: United States

    What comes first, the chicken or the egg?

    I've noticed while, cruising the Disk brake and Wheel forums, that I see a problem.
    If I'm looking at a certain brake system, to install on my Nova, I'm told to print a brake caliper clearance template.
    This is of NO value, because I don't have the wheels, nor can I see the wheels locally. If I buy the wheels, then I am limited
    in my brake choices. Is it my understanding that I'm going to buy one wheel, with custom offset, then use the template? If I find that the wheel doesn't work, I'm going to attempt to return the custom wheel? Looks like I'm being pushed into an off the shelf wheel that is easy to return. Choose another brake system and print another template?
    Every time someone asks if a certain wheel clears a certain brake system, no one knows. Wheel manufactures don't know, brake manufacturers don't know, retailers don't know, installers don't know and end users are using half inch spacers.
    So spend the money, pay the freight, fight for a refund, pay the freight again and be happy.
    Looks like I'm buying small brakes and the wheels I want. Do I have the process for this correct or is it my misunderstanding of whats going on here?
    You have to take into account that I live in the back woods of Michigan and no one has a Nova with anything other than skinnys up front and drag radials in the back. Nova's are only for the drag strip, heaven forbid if one could actually handle decently on the street like a modern car. The ones around here can't even park at a cruise without rolling the front tire over.
    This is getting very expensive?

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    IL/TN
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    721
    Country Flag: United States
    The term is custom, car manufacturers design parts in house to fit with one another, AND they spend millions of dollars doing so, this is IMPOSSIBLE to do with custom parts, imagine a brake manufacturer having to get drawings of every type of wheel that the custom industry comes up with, and for the the wheel manufacturers to try and keep up with all the different brakes that are currently available, future brake design and past brake designs, remember it is your build you have to become the engineer and the researcher just as any other auto manufacturer, and yes the more you deviate from stock the more expensive it gets.
    https://www.pro-touringf-body.com "doing what they say can't be done"

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Oct 2018
    Location
    Phoenix, AZ
    Posts
    387
    Country Flag: United States
    You should not expect wheel manufacturers to act like Amazon and just let you buy and return stuff at will. And with custom wheels that isn't even an option, once you've bought them you own them. If you are that concerned with it, buy a wheel measuring tool. It's under $400 (wayyyyy cheaper than a custom wheel) and will allow you to bolt it onto the assembled spindle/hub/brake assembly so you can physically see what offset and diameter will clear. I think there was even a guy on here at one point that would let you rent the tool from him for a week or two.

    As for the wheel companies knowing if a wheel will clear your brake kit, if it's a custom wheel then no...they could never know that. No brake manufacturer will ever know this data since they aren't concerned with wheel fit. If you use a reputable wheel company and have a known brake kit then you'd be surprised how many of them will know what will fit if you pick a wheel from their catalog. Custom stuff is always harder. That's why most people don't do it.

    If you are only worried about the diameter and not spoke clearance there is a well known general limit to brake size. For example, 14" brakes need 18" or bigger wheels, 15" brakes need 19" or bigger wheels, etc. That's all over the internet. Obviously there is exceptions, but this is a general rule to go by.
    '95 F-150 track ready street beast
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  4. #4
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Beach Park IL
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    2,376
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    What wheels do you want?.....what size?

    What brakes do you want?.....what size?

    I bet someone on this forum could help you determine if it will work or not.

    To actually answer your question, neither comes first.........in _most_ cases. Everything happens at the same time and everything depends on everything else. You learn, or rely on someone that already has.
    Donny

    Support your local hot rod shop!

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Jersey Shore
    Posts
    609
    Country Flag: United States
    Have a set of brakes that you would like to run? then get a set of wheels that fit those brakes.
    Have a set of wheels that you would like to run? then get a set of brakes that fit those wheels.
    Not trying to be a smart a$$, but the vibe I got from your other thread about suspension you are not building an all out race car. There are enough good options out there (wheels and brakes) that should fit your wants and needs regardless where you start
    -Chris
    '69 Corvette
    '55 Chevy Hardtop
    AutoWorks Middletown, NJ
    @autoworksnj for corvette and shop car pics
    https://www.pro-touring.com/showthre...e-Build-Thread

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Macomb County, Michigan
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    26
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    Thank you all for the answers.
    After mulling over your comments, I’ll buy my wheels first and get a set of brakes to fit.
    I was hoping for C5 brakes, but we shall see.
    Thanks

    - - - Updated - - -
    This is getting very expensive?

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    San Leandro, CA
    Posts
    920
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    18s fit c5. Some 17s do. Iíd go 18s youíll have tons of brake options.
    Steve
    '68 Camaro - SBC, TKO600, 3.73 Moser 12-bolt, Speedtech, AFX, Hotchkis, Forgeline, Ron Davis and C5 brakes with Kore3 park brake kit. Soon to be EFI with Holley Terminator.
    Check it Out Here

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
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    Macomb County, Michigan
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    26
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    Quote Originally Posted by eville View Post
    18s fit c5. Some 17s do. Iíd go 18s youíll have tons of brake options.
    Thanks for your reply.
    In Michigan the roads are terrible, I'm not sure about the lack of sidewall and bending a wheel. Even on the repaired roads, the manhole covers are 6 inches below the surface of the road. I do my best at dodging around the various hazards, BUT.
    The other concern is the power level of the car, I just don't have any experience with that type of tire (18") and the engine torque level in my car. I'm trying to stick with a 50 aspect ratio and when you get to 18 inches you're stuck with 45. I'm not even sure if it makes any difference with such a small difference, I'm surly NO expert on tire performance for the street. This will not be a track car, so looks come into play. I've seen some Novas with 17 inch wheels and they look really good, but at some point I'm sure they start to look a little odd with too much wheel?
    You are right about brake choices and an 18 inch wheel, it's something to think about.
    This is getting very expensive?

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Oct 2018
    Location
    Phoenix, AZ
    Posts
    387
    Country Flag: United States
    If you aren't doing anything other than street driving this car on ****ty roads, you're overthinking this braking thing. The C5 Z06 came with a 17" wheel if you are that worried about those brakes fitting a smaller wheel. I believe those cars use a 13" diameter front rotor which will be plenty for cruising around regardless of your power level. If you are out-driving those brakes on public roads then you shouldn't have a license.

    The rotor diameter is related to brake torque, but tires quickly become the limitation. Rotor thickness is related to heat absorption which seems to not even be worth focusing on for your needs.

    '95 F-150 track ready street beast
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  10. #10
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    San Leandro, CA
    Posts
    920
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    If the roads are that bad a 1/2" more sidewall profile won't help.
    Check out the sidewall profiles on new cars sold in Michigan. I bet there's lots of 18"+ wheels.
    Buy what you want.
    Steve
    '68 Camaro - SBC, TKO600, 3.73 Moser 12-bolt, Speedtech, AFX, Hotchkis, Forgeline, Ron Davis and C5 brakes with Kore3 park brake kit. Soon to be EFI with Holley Terminator.
    Check it Out Here

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
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    Macomb County, Michigan
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    26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sbeck09 View Post
    If you aren't doing anything other than street driving this car on ****ty roads, you're overthinking this braking thing. The C5 Z06 came with a 17" wheel if you are that worried about those brakes fitting a smaller wheel. I believe those cars use a 13" diameter front rotor which will be plenty for cruising around regardless of your power level. If you are out-driving those brakes on public roads then you shouldn't have a license.

    The rotor diameter is related to brake torque, but tires quickly become the limitation. Rotor thickness is related to heat absorption which seems to not even be worth focusing on for your needs.
    Thank you for the reply.
    I'll buy the wheels I want, then see what fits.
    As far as the driving style goes, I want brakes equal to a vette, it's what I want. Just because.
    This is getting very expensive?

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Macomb County, Michigan
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    26
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    Quote Originally Posted by eville View Post
    If the roads are that bad a 1/2" more sidewall profile won't help.
    Check out the sidewall profiles on new cars sold in Michigan. I bet there's lots of 18"+ wheels.
    Buy what you want.
    Thank you for the reply.
    I do some side business with a local Dodge dealer in my area, you should see the pile of scrap 18 inch wheels that go out of that place.
    Wow, it's incredible.
    Yes in the end I'll get some 17 inch wheels, it's a looks thing for me.
    This is getting very expensive?

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    263
    I was too cheap to buy the tire fitment tool so a bought a couple of damaged 18" wheels for cheap with different back spacing to use as a reference. It's worked well for me. I've used C5 calipers and rotors a number of times. They a relatively cheap and replacements are only as far away as the NAPA store. On my first 2nd gen Camaro project I had 17" wheels and the 13" rotors and calipers cleared just fine.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
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    Macomb County, Michigan
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    Quote Originally Posted by 79 Camaro View Post
    I was too cheap to buy the tire fitment tool so a bought a couple of damaged 18" wheels for cheap with different back spacing to use as a reference. It's worked well for me. I've used C5 calipers and rotors a number of times. They a relatively cheap and replacements are only as far away as the NAPA store. On my first 2nd gen Camaro project I had 17" wheels and the 13" rotors and calipers cleared just fine.
    Thanks for the reply.
    You're not cheap, you're prudent with your money.
    I'm buying my wheels first and let the chips fall.
    My guess is that Wilwood has a system that will fit.
    This is getting very expensive?

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Macomb County, Michigan
    Posts
    26
    Country Flag: United States
    Several manufactures make alloy 17 inch Chevy rally wheels.
    I have 15 inch steel rally wheels right now, with custom back space from Wheel Vintiques.
    I'll move up to 17 inch alloy wheels and find the brakes that fit, game over.
    But I definitely will improve the cars braking from the present Disk/Drum system.
    This is getting very expensive?

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    263
    Another thing to consider is the brake booster and master. I've used the C5 booster on a couple of projects along with 02 Camaro master. Again its worked well.
    The C5 booster is cheap from a salvage yard. Never had one wear out. I like the look of the aluminum/plastic 02 master.
    If you go that route do a little junk diving because the fittings on the 02 master line fittings are odd. Not standard fittings.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Los Angeles
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    5,570
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    Agreed on getting the wheels you want first for looks, then brakes.

    If it was a track car, then brakes are much more important. For street driving, a C5/6 on a 12" rotor will fit just about any wheel and stop the car fine with the right MC and booster.

    Tire choices for 17's is getting limited. There are tons of great tires in 18's available.
    VaporWorx. We Give You Gas http://www.vaporworx.com

  18. #18
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    Feb 2008
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    Macomb County, Michigan
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    Quote Originally Posted by 79 Camaro View Post
    Another thing to consider is the brake booster and master. I've used the C5 booster on a couple of projects along with 02 Camaro master. Again its worked well.
    The C5 booster is cheap from a salvage yard. Never had one wear out. I like the look of the aluminum/plastic 02 master.
    If you go that route do a little junk diving because the fittings on the 02 master line fittings are odd. Not standard fittings.
    Thank you and I will. If I canít do those C5ís Iíll do some Wilwoods.
    I love junkyards, hehehe.
    This is getting very expensive?

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Macomb County, Michigan
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    26
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    Quote Originally Posted by CarlC View Post
    Agreed on getting the wheels you want first for looks, then brakes.

    If it was a track car, then brakes are much more important. For street driving, a C5/6 on a 12" rotor will fit just about any wheel and stop the car fine with the right MC and booster.

    Tire choices for 17's is getting limited. There are tons of great tires in 18's available.
    Thanks for the reply.
    Right now the car has 15 inch tires on it, I have no tire choices and what is available is very expensive for the low level of performance.
    Before I pull the trigger on wheels I'll research tires.
    This is getting very expensive?

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    IL/TN
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    721
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    I hate to be the one to point this out but there is a recurring theme "expensive" , the number one cause of failure at building a project is budget, the best advice I can give you is to sit down and figure out what percentage of your income you can spare on your project, not to fall for the fancy or flashy parts, we have customers that have won auto cross championships with 30-40K cars, drum brakes and are reliable driven on the street and to and from the track.
    When doing your budget double it to be on the safe side and don't forget anything.
    Last edited by 79T/Aman; 3 Weeks Ago at 04:54 AM.
    https://www.pro-touringf-body.com "doing what they say can't be done"

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