69 Camaro Baffling Front Suspension Issue

[joe g]

Hi guys. It's been a while since I've posed but I still follow threads. I have a problem that is baffling us. This is a bit long so please bear with me.

Car is a 69 Camaro with a ZZ430 (350), TKO 600, Baer 13" Track discs on all 4. I've gone through a few suspension changes over the years and am pretty familiar with how things work. Current front setup is Ride Tech upper and lower control arms and coilovers, L&H Customs tall spindles and steering arms (no longer in business, I think). Lee Engineering steering box. Hotchkis lowering springs rear. Wheels are 8 x 17 Billet Specialties with 235/50x17 Bridgestone Potenza S-04 Pole Position tires all around. Nice sticky tire.
This setup has been on the car for several years now with no issues. Handles well, pretty neutral. Sits pretty low so I have to be real careful on speed bumps. My headers show flat spots from that.

My issue: a few weeks ago I put the car on my rack and changed the oil and lubed the fittings. All normal. But when I lowered the. car back down and took it for a drive, the toe-in had changed drastically. There was so much toe-in that the tires squealed and smoked going in a straight line! I measured the tire temps with a pyrometer and the outside edge of the fronts were over 180F anfter a short drive. I could smell the rubber burning. Also the car sat a bit higher in the front (maybe 1/2 inch). I put it back up onto track and tried to find something that moved. Nada, nothing. Put a 3 foot pry bar on everything to try and find some movement. Nothing. Tightened everything I could find but nothing was loose. I re-adjusted the toe-in just to see what would happen. The adjustment needed to go from severe toe-in to somewhat straight is less that a turn on the sleeves so it doesn't take much. I lowered the car back down and drove it. All is well again. Drives great. Oh boy! Car is still about 1/4 inch higher that before measuring from grade to the front fender lips) but still ok.I scratch my head and leave it alone and just drive it. Still can't figure out how raising the car on the lift would affect anything. It's been on that lift dozens of times.



Driving it around all seemed normal again until yesterday. I pulled out of our local grocery store parking lot turned left with light acceleration. I felt the car kinda twitch a bit and it felt like the front end lifted a bit. The toe-in changed back to severe toe-in, the tires are stealing again and the self-centering for the steering went away. I
drove it home and in the garage the toe-in was quite visible and the ride height increase was evident. (1/2 inch at the fender lips). So I put it back on the rack again. This time I loosened everything up. Lowered the spring adjusters so the springs were loose and re-centered them. I retightened everything again and reset the toe-in. Again it drove great. But what is changing? I don't have confidence to take it anywhere and I drive this car to load distance events.

Then on the next outing it changed again, going back to severe toe-in. When it changes it feels very twitchy, the self centering steering almost goes away, like it's going toward negative caster.

I've bought new tie rod ends. new pitman arm and new idler arm just out of frustration. The existing ones are only 7-8 years old but I'm out of ideas of what to change. When it changes it is not subtle. It is either good or very bad; no in between. The fact that the ride height increases when this happens is a clue, but not sure of what. I have looked closely at the springs pockets, frame welds, and anything else that is connected.

I have replaced all tie rod ends, the idler arm and the pitman arm just for something to do. All Moog parts. The center link looks good and tight. The steering is pretty stiff now but I think it's because of all the new stuff. Adjusted toe -in (again). Camber and ride height unchanged. Went for a drive and did some fairly hard cornering on our back road. Checked tire temperatures and the fronts are running what I think is normal. About 115 on the outside edge and 125 on the inside edge (I have about 3/4 degree of negative camber)
Drove it about 20 miles and other than the stiff steering it seemed OK and drove well well. For a short time. Then it changed again, back to toe in and 1/2 inch ride height increase.

Today we decided to take everything off.
1)We removed the brakes, spindles, upper and lower a arms and the coil-over springs. We're down to the subframe again. Inspected the frame closely. Tried to get something to flex with a 3 foot pry bar. Nothing.
2)The ball joints are tight in both uppers and lowers. The bushings are tight. I removed the lower a arm bushings just to look (plus they come out easy). They are like new.
3)The upper arm bushings are tight. I can't remove them without some special tools but there is no need.
4)Spindles look good; steering arms look good.
5)The springs and shocks work smoothly; no bent shaft or coil bind.

While I had it apart the first time I installed new brake pads (PowerStop Z23) and had the 4 rotors turned, just because. 13" Baer drilled/slotted.

I am really frustrated. Can't find ANYTHING wrong. I was actually hoping to find a frame crack or arm crack. At least then I would have something to repair.
Has anyone ever experienced something like this?. This setup has been on the car for several years and has worked great. What gives?

Thanks for taking the time!!

Joe

[dhutton]

I vaguely remember Brett from ridetech telling me about a similar issue he could not find. He said he finally figured out it was a ball joint that was intermittently moving/failing.

Beyond that I would suspect intermittent movement of an insert in the L&H spindles.

Don

[joe g]

I vaguely remember Brett from ridetech telling me about a similar issue he could not find. He said he finally figured out it was a ball joint that was intermittently moving/failing.

Beyond that I would suspect intermittent movement of an insert in the L&H spindles.

Don

Thanks Don. I have checked the LH spindle closely since there was a post of the insert coming loose. I had installed a "safety washer" where his came apart to prevent that.

The ball joints look good but they are the only thing left to change so that's next.

I may just put the stock spindles back on as well for a test. I'm told I'll need tall upper ball joints to do that with the Ride Tech upper arms.

Joe

[djorgensen3]

Could the tie rod adjuster sleeves have bad threads in them and they are jumping to the next thread over?

[dhutton]

Thanks Don. I have checked the LH spindle closely since there was a post of the insert coming loose. I had installed a "safety washer" where his came apart to prevent that.

The ball joints look good but they are the only thing left to change so that's next.

I may just put the stock spindles back on as well for a test. I'm told I'll need tall upper ball joints to do that with the Ride Tech upper arms.

Joe

Ball joints are cheap so I would replace them before swapping out spindles. Otherwise you will never know what the issue was.

Just because you put a washer on the spindle I don’t think that guarantees that the insert isn’t sloppy or loose, does it?

Don

[joe g]

Could the tie rod adjuster sleeves have bad threads in them and they are jumping to the next thread over?

That was one of the first things I checked. I have the Hotchkis billet adjusters with lock nuts and they haven't been moving.

Thanks

[joe g]

Ball joints are cheap so I would replace them before swapping out spindles. Otherwise you will never know what the issue was.

Just because you put a washer on the spindle I don’t think that guarantees that the insert isn’t sloppy or loose, does it?

Don

Thanks Don.
That's true. I have checked the spindle inserts closely and can't find any play or wobble. But that's one reason I was thinking of trying to go with the stock spindles again. Just to take it out of the equation.

One good thing: As many times as it's been taken apart it comes apart easy.Having a lift helps too.

Joe

[joe g]

"Latest update:
After discovering the rear bolts holes for the lower control arms seem to be "stretched allowing play in the bolt, I re-installed the lower arms with just the bolts going through; no nut. This was to test the play that the bigger hole allowed. I just let the arms hang. The front mounts are tight with no play. The rears are loose and allow for about 3/8 inch of movement! Wow! That was unexpected. The little amount of play in the bolt hole translated to a lot of moment for the rear arm mount. It was the same on both sides. That would certainly change settings on the run.

I think I may have found the culprit. My plan now is to reassemble everything with my original tall spindles and ride tech arms. I have drilled out a 1/8 inch thick washer to just allow the bolt to go through. Once it is assembled, I will drive it to my favorite shop and they will weld the washer and maybe the nut to the frame. This should keep things in place.

I am holding off of changing to the stock spindles and changing ball joints because I want to prove my theory. Change one thing at a time.

I don't have a welder or skills so can't do it on the lift. The shop will unload the chassis before welding.

So what caused this to happen all of a sudden? These have been on the car since 2013. My theory is that I lubed the control arm bushings. Thes are Delrin bushings and don't need greasing. I'm guessing the holes had been getting worn (or maybe they were like that all along) but the outside of the bushings had taken a "set" against the frame. When I forced all that great in there is broke that set and allowed the arm to move. That's the only thing that makes sense to my feeble brain.

But at least I found something (maybe). Yay!!

I made a short video of the movement but don't know how to upload it here (if it's even allowed)

Thanks for all the suggestions. I'll post the results.

Joe

[joe g]

Update:

I had the washers welded to the frame as I had planned. Everything is back together, torqued and lubed. Aligned the toe (with my new toe plates) to a bit less that 1/16 toe in. Put the same shims back in as I had before so the camber caster seems good. Drove it and all is well again. The steering is a bit stiff off center but I think that will cure itself as the new parts break in.
I did grease the bushings and all the fittings again.

As an aside, the guy at the shop I used to weld the washers does a lot of custom suspension work. He said the bushing were not Delrin but a softer poly compound. He uses Delrin in a lot of his projects so he probably recognizes it. But who knows. The bushings I have came with the Ride Tech arms and look just like their poly replacement ones on their website. So I'm guessing they are poly, not Delrin. Not that I really care, but it can get confusing. I guess I just assumed they were Delrin since that's what's advertised on their site. It's been so long that I don't remember if that's how they were described when I bought them. I do know they don't have the removable "pills" to adjust caster that the current arms do. They were originally shipped direct from Ride Tech to my home when I bought them 6 years ago.

I never did get any reply from Ride Tech.

At any rate it's back together again and I'm calling it a success!

Thanks for all the input and advice.

Joe