So am I crazy with my new garage plan?

[MonzaRacer]

Was wondering about any thoughts on building pole barn garage with second floor to make livable, at least temporarily.
My plan at first was nice 24wx32l building. plan for good concrete floor, 6-8" so I can have lift.
Basiic pole barn plans all call for 8 foot on center posts. I thought maybe up grade posts to proper 6x6 set in concrete( use proper UC4B posts and such and rot is not a problem. My plans were to see about 4ft or 6ft on center, frame for side garage door and end garage door and entry doors and windows later on, Possibly finding over stock or take outs for garage area.
Then my plan had been as I build the building and walls are up start putting 16" engineered floor trusses in ceiling, then build 6-8' tall upper room. Nice bath/bedroom on one end, kitchenette on other. MAYBE single shower/urinal at other end in corner, near kitchen and entry door. come in have washer/dryer right there.
Figured all kitchen stuff along one end ,maybe small bar to eat at.
Living space be open as much as possible.
Simply finished as I can, with open concept that I can section off as needed inside.
The trusses have hvac/plumbing runs to go through so do that as I can, have local heating and cooling people run floor duct through center of truss, maybe 3 to 4 branches towards wall.
My plans had been to add couple of wall propane heaters with proper fire protection (off when not home) and use down draft furnace from trailer(its nearly new) to heat upper level.
Plans were to do a lot myself or as funds allow use local contractors to do certain parts of project.
electric I had plans to just use same meter and run to both upstairs and down stairs boxes.
Figured look around for decent deal on the romex and just buy large role to wire building with. Bathroom only needs couple outlets, smae on bedroom.
In living quarters figured 6 to 8 outlets max.
Kitchen would need, dryer, washer, stove, 4-6 outlets max.
The idea is keep it simple yet livable till I move on, as in possibly build small 1 floor on slab stick home elsewhere on small plot I have.
My idea was keep garage area basically enclosed till ready to finish it out THEN open up garage doors opening(already framed but not open).
If garage area is closed off and floor is properly insulated I should not have issues.
Fellow I work with has buddy with extra windows and doors from his project I might get cheap to get them out of his way. Which would set me up for upstairs.
I can live with bare dry wall and such and throw rugs to start. Plans are get it up right and ready, move crap in, get rid of my trailer and re landscape rest of property.
Throw up ideas, planning sites, etc.
Basic idea"
24' wide north to south, 32 ft long east to west. Figured building total to eaves height 22-24' +/- then roof.
Open ceiling with scissor trusses so no dead space, just heated and insulated to roof.
Open concept, basically 12x12 bedroom/bath on west end. 24'x24' for living space (me and my cat) entry on south side near east endcoming up from old deck next to my trailer,just add in stair strinnger up.
Maybe another door,stairs down on north side, not sure.
Basically kitchen stuff, along north west end. small shower/urinal on south west end, possibly washer/dryer right thier.
Still planning and such.
Dont have much in codes here and septic from trailer will line up with west end of building. Water and electric can come from east end.
Sorry if my post is disjointed, Im thinking and planning as I type.
But help,ideas,criticisms welcomed.

[dhutton]

No need for a slab that thick imho. A waste of money....

Don

[MonzaRacer]

No need for a slab that thick imho. A waste of money....

Don

Well according to concrete info I need 2500 psi concrete 6 in thick, my plans are to install some other heavy equipment so I figure spend it once. I also checked with several lift companies and they said 4-6 in pad, the cost is not much difference. Namely my finding a guy with a Storm Vulcan block master and they (current tool company maker iteration) recommended 8" to give proper support.

[raustinss]

A 6 inch pad with higher strength concrete will be beyond enough , if you want extra piece of mind go thicker right where the hoist will be located .

[minendrews68]

Yeah, I agree. 6", 8" is overkill to me. If anything go with Ryan's opinion and just do some sort of small pylons where the lift is going to bolt up to the floor.

[SShep71]

6" pad is standard industrial thickness. The bearing capacity 2500psi is adequate, but it is not as simple as you may consider. If you are in an area prone to deep long freeze winters, you will need a frost barrier. Depending on the substrate below the concrete and the compaction rate, you may be able to achieve the adequate strength with a thinner slab. Again then you have to consider if you intend to use fiber reinforced concrete, standard rebar construction, aggregate size, etc. The one thing i would advise against is post tension concrete as this will limit your ability to modify the slab in the future. If you do intend to maintain the ability to install items that require thicker sections (lift, gantry crane, large machines, etc) then maintain slab thickness throughout the pour so you will not have to worry about the need for future "footings" if your equipment falls in an area that is outside of the thicker slab portion. As far as the poles for the barn, another item I suggest you look at is using structural steel wide flange I-beams. The capabilities are obvious vastly more impressive for the structural steel, but the ability to expand to the garage at a later time is more adequate than just a simple timber post construction. The biggest thing that all of this is determined by is cost, what do you want to spend vs what can you spend. Most important thing I would suggest, find a competent civil engineer that has experience in this field, open up a dialogue with him/her and be very specific and honest about your intent. As the local environment dictates everything you will be doing, you will want someone that has the experience in your area. They should have some input on how to go about things in ways that were not previously considered before. And call before you dig! You could save a large portion of money on doing things yourself, including excavation, site prep, etc. Equipment rental companies offer deals all the time if you know the guys there.

[MonzaRacer]

Wow all interest has been in the concrete I will pour down the road.
I am debating how to do the second floor more than concrete as I intend to use it as habitation for a while as I remove my trailer and re do the landscape and contemplate another building
I have two different ideas given by different companies.
First one was set 4x6 or 6x6 poles to height of ground floor I plan with enough to tie in the floor trusses, and then stick build the second floor.
The second planer told me to go with appropriate height poles for the whole building. THEN tie in floor trusses for second floor.

WE talked about the second floor tieing in with a 16in lvl across the length on both sides then hang the floor trusses. This also would give me a way to run HVAC in floor and all mechanicals/plumbing, etc. Also had idea that all my 2nd floor electrical could come through the floor and run out to walls.
because of the strength of the trusses, then sheet it with either 3/4" or 1 1/8 floor sheeting. Depending on costs.
My plans were 24x32, put bedroom and bath on one end, keep it open except for small bar to eat at and install kitchen and maybe small shower/ wash room on other end.

My plans were to get building up, ground floor closed in. See my plan was frame for doors and windows but put off installing them at first except for one entry door to start. If builder can but building up against the current deck, I can set second floor stringers up side of building to entry door.
I have chance of getting left over windows and doors for second floor.
Heat is hopefully my nearly new furnace from trailer.
Plans are to do a lot of interior finish work my self.
Plans were to get it up, set materials inside and then seal it up.
I was talking to roof truss people about scissor trusses and insulating directly to the roof nd keep trusses in warm are, so I dont have a separate attic.
My plans were big white rectangle. Garage in bottom living up top to start.
Drawings to come.

[KacyZ28]

Wow all interest has been in the concrete I will pour down the road.
I am debating how to do the second floor more than concrete as I intend to use it as habitation for a while as I remove my trailer and re do the landscape and contemplate another building
I have two different ideas given by different companies.
First one was set 4x6 or 6x6 poles to height of ground floor I plan with enough to tie in the floor trusses, and then stick build the second floor.
The second planer told me to go with appropriate height poles for the whole building. THEN tie in floor trusses for second floor.

WE talked about the second floor tieing in with a 16in lvl across the length on both sides then hang the floor trusses. This also would give me a way to run HVAC in floor and all mechanicals/plumbing, etc. Also had idea that all my 2nd floor electrical could come through the floor and run out to walls.
because of the strength of the trusses, then sheet it with either 3/4" or 1 1/8 floor sheeting. Depending on costs.
My plans were 24x32, put bedroom and bath on one end, keep it open except for small bar to eat at and install kitchen and maybe small shower/ wash room on other end.

My plans were to get building up, ground floor closed in. See my plan was frame for doors and windows but put off installing them at first except for one entry door to start. If builder can but building up against the current deck, I can set second floor stringers up side of building to entry door.
I have chance of getting left over windows and doors for second floor.
Heat is hopefully my nearly new furnace from trailer.
Plans are to do a lot of interior finish work my self.
Plans were to get it up, set materials inside and then seal it up.
I was talking to roof truss people about scissor trusses and insulating directly to the roof nd keep trusses in warm are, so I dont have a separate attic.
My plans were big white rectangle. Garage in bottom living up top to start.
Drawings to come.

If you havent already check with the city on codes some will not let you build garages taller than your current house, they have to match, cannot do a detached garage or living quarters over the garage.

Separate attic is nice for storage and also gives you a ceiling if you need to hang curtains from for painting, The downside to living over a garage is fumes from the garage can seep through into them.

[MonzaRacer]

Well as for codes, we dont have them. Im in a rural area and as far as I know I only have to get tax assessment after its done.
As for the attic being storage I am hoping to not get into having to vent an attic and fill it with lots of insulation. My hope was to insulate the roof from the bottom, most likely with spray foam, keep it a warm space.
My plan has been advancing, I have looked at several outside treatments.
My plan is to sheet all of the outside with Zip R, when I put the steel siding I am planning on using a product from Polywall, its a liquid moisture barrier similar to tyvec but will seal around sheeting screws. The Zip sheeting has its own sealing system for seams and nails. And it has a pretty cool way to treat window and door openings.

So I have plans for:
6x6 posts(UC4B treated), one form of post protector or another, the one builder I talked to has convincing evidence that properly treated posts will work well with concrete around them(trick is to pour it very low water under and around and not bring it all the way up, then cover or close it off and let it set slowly, and bury it as sunlight and oxygen are critical damagers of wood underground).
My other question has been post garage with stick on top.
I was told to go with full posts, 4ft in ground.
Concrete for the floor later on but I will just get it up and enclosed so I can work.
Found 16" floor trusses that will allow me to have garage without posts. Found proper hangers
Figured out my trailers furnace which is nearly new,so ill use to heat second floor.
The trusses handle all the mechanicals like heat, sewer, water and electric.
Plans are to bolt outer girder to posts, install truss hangers. on inside of the beams my plan is to bolt another girder most likely another 2x12 under the trusses on inside of posts.
I had an Idea of putting a couple/three cantilever posts out to make a small deck, but thats an idea not set in stone.
Im still debating how to do the upper girders.
Roof truss plans are to have no overhang as in my area wasp and hornet are pretty common so Im figuring on no overhang.
Plans are Zip R thats same thickness as 2x's, and seal the tie in between any boards and Zip R either with Zip products or Polywall.
I am hoping to do the whole garage in Zip R, spray foam the scissor trusses where they mate to the girders.
The spray foam available locally runs about $2 sq ft per in
Upper walls will be loaded with Roxsul Rockwool insulation, unless I hit lotto and can spray whole upstairs. Floor will get glued and screwed 3/4 or 1in plywood.
My plans are open concept, just two rooms on one end, bedroom and bathroom.
I have plans to set up second floor entrance side to be right next to my current deck then add a second floor stair from there.
Did have one idea of cantilevering a small upper deck at second floor door. Might be able to do this with longer floor trusses.
Basically 24x32x22 or 24 tall. 12 ft garage ceiling, use 16in floor trusses, and keep ceiling reasonably lower like my trailer ceiling. Less space to heat or clean.

The pros and cons of using a proper outside sheathing mean I can heat with a candle and cool with a ice cube. Pole barns are inherently leaky so I intend to make it LESS leaky and control water and such better. One thought was to balance outside sheeting costs with either the Zip R or plywood with Polywall roll/spray on moisture(like Tyvek but liquid) the one cool part is the liquid wall membrane/sealer is that it reseals after you nail or screw through. so one builder suggested using it where I fasten roof and siding.

Did have one guy who has a vinyl siding business where he runs flat material out of his former in truck and makes sides all one piece. He is talking about retiring and I started looking at his equipment, and how to run it.
Its an older unit that uses propane for heat source, but the vinyl is very easy to source,,,,so my sides may just get heavy vinyl vs barn metal if I can get deal on equipment or at least use of it.
Seems that anytime we start a project we become near experts.

[FlyDoc]

You still have building codes in rural areas. Go to Barns & Nobles and get the national code Books.
It will provide you with most of the answers to questions.

On Codes people confuse building codes with Building Ordinances, Codes tell you how to build for safely, exp.. wiring, snow loads extra, Ordinaces are the ones that pissoff everyone, exp... set back, height, number and type of animals.

I think why everyone is committing on the concrete is that 8” is THICK! and concrete is the single biggest expense. My worthless opinion is to go 4” then go with footings, this is best then you can add for the equipment you don’t have now.

The size of pole is all about spacing, with a 10’ Side wall for example, at 4’ go with a 4x4”, 6’-4x6”, and 8’-6x6”, for the area that will have a second level living area go 6x6 on 4’, but i’m Not an engineer, that’s why the National Code book is so important.

[MonzaRacer]

You still have building codes in rural areas. Go to Barns & Nobles and get the national code Books.
It will provide you with most of the answers to questions.

On Codes people confuse building codes with Building Ordinances, Codes tell you how to build for safely, exp.. wiring, snow loads extra, Ordinaces are the ones that pissoff everyone, exp... set back, height, number and type of animals.

I think why everyone is committing on the concrete is that 8” is THICK! and concrete is the single biggest expense. My worthless opinion is to go 4” then go with footings, this is best then you can add for the equipment you don’t have now.

The size of pole is all about spacing, with a 10’ Side wall for example, at 4’ go with a 4x4”, 6’-4x6”, and 8’-6x6”, for the area that will have a second level living area go 6x6 on 4’, but i’m Not an engineer, that’s why the National Code book is so important.

In this area we dont YEt have as much government encroachment as more urban area. The basic thing is to get the building appraised so they can set tax rate yearly. IE government rental on your property.
So far in this area we dont have to play mother may I to do something as in ,say Chicago or New York.
While I see the need if your home is right next to several others but if my Barndominium burns up tomorrow after being built it only hurts ME.
Dont get me wrong, I intend to find a proper electrician, but as for plumbingI have as done plumbing before and know what Im doing.
My plans are to tie into existing line, run Uponor Pex A in my building. I already have Milwaukee tools so buying the install tool is no brainer and Ill have it if I need anything fixed or added.
The building is planned to be better than a regular pole barn but still be a simple design. Floor trusses will allow a free and open garage. I found a source for a great seal/barrier for bottom of the floor trusses. Place makes a heavy mill film thats 12+ feet wide, has a very sticky/tacky edge on sides when shipped so I can put it up and seal the ceiling from the living space as I was recommended to do to minimize bad things coming upstairs. And it has some great repair tape to cover any damage.
Because I intend to use garage for fun and such I have plans to properly protect walls and such and even have found a way to include a sprinkler/misting system for emergency use. Company says they can set up heads to keep upstairs safe if a small fire starts downstairs. Heck they even have waterless/low water systems if you have cash.
Setup Im looking at has zones so whole garage doesnt get doused right away and its inexpensive too.
Ill post links as soon as the yget done updating websight/host server.
Saw where one customer had gasoline fire in carb that actually got away from him, ONLY the heads above care started first. Eventually it ran couple more but basically wet everything down so well the car was only thing with any fire damage.
The set up Im looking at will have three or four zones/heads. very simple metal piping to those heads and to water/product source.
Reason for fire control is insurance.
I had friend who claimed I should not use Roxul as it has fiberglass in it and its flammable yet EVERY advertisement I see says its flame retardant and they even use torches on it.
My plans were to use that and smaller amount of spray foam to make upper floors warm first. Garage ceiling was planned on vapor barrier and Roxul Comfortboard. with a central heat duct down middle, water lines ran near that for freeze protection and drains a bit farther away but not near outer walls should keep things flowing. And since its a minimalist effort water coming up one side of building, then main run from one end to another. Water heater at bathroom end of it and maybe a small on demand in kitchen at other end.
As for concrete I will take lift makers opinion and deal accordingly.But thats down the road.

[raustinss]

You need to talk to a engineer in your area and or a contractor, not a bunch of grease monkeys lol . As for the roxul comments . Roxul is a mineral wool .. not fiberglass. I'm in the middle of fabricating something at work right now that needs roxul installed with it . Send me your cell or something I can show you first hand what does it doesnt happen when you torch it lol

[MonzaRacer]

Oh I know the Roxul is fireproof, even sent him a video of how its made. I have paln to install the roxuls comfort board 80 or 110 on ceiling both for noise, insulation and fire resistance.
Biggest issue with area is there are few polebarn contractors around that are big. I have been planning a lot of the new home sealing and insulation ides to get a better barn.
I like the newer ideas of insulation from outside in.

[FlyDoc]

Like I was saying,
Building codes are created for safety, developed by a board consisting of contractors, engineers, government types.

Ordnance’s- created by cities to extort from the land owner.

Basically saying that you should fallow Codes, not telling you that you should call your city or county and tell them that you are going to build anything.

But at the end of the day you will do whatever you want to do.

[shelteredchevelle]

Don't bother with Roxul, you don't need it. Roxul is Rock Wool, plenty of video's on it. Spend your money on spray foam, it's worth it.
1" of foam = R7 rating
Remember, a sprinkler system is always a good thing until it discharges- then it ruins everything you own in the space. It also requires a large flow rate. Plenty of 40 second chemical extinguishers should do. They aren't automatic obviously, but a heck of of lot cheaper.

[MonzaRacer]

So when I figure out my square footage the Roxul will do all the upstairs walls just over $1100 not including windows and doors subtracted.
Heck I could add $1100 to roof after its sealed with spray foam for even better setup.
At $2 sq ft per inch and doing 5.5in in walls alone would run WAY TO MUCH.
Heck just the roof and around the floor to wall connection will be in the $6000-$7000 range.
My hope is a decently sealed garage, insulated floor and such should make upstairs cozy. Since downstairs wont be ice cold I should get decent return on plans.
Since I have figured it out Id have more in the spray foam than the building.
I know I could do less but if I build once I dont have to again.
I can do less on other out buildings and such.
5 1/2" roxul is R23 +R6 on Zip R=R29 walls. If I can use it on roof then I would have R6 + 3 1/2xR7= R30.5 and If I throw some R23 Roxul over that Im in the R50+ range!
The walls would be $1568 PER IN. If I just use 3 in i get R21 @ $2 per in per sq ft Im in the $5000 in walls alone. Roxul would run $1150. roof will be $6000 alone.
Its a cost thing. If I do walls my self and and blow in floor as I sheet it (neighbor bought used insulation blower from his church (donated by dead members family) he figures we do out projects then sell it later.
If figures are right but I can get R38 depth in floor for $1200 and that is blown in mineral wool.
My hope is to save where I can. I can get my own Milwaukee Uponor Pex A tool from my tool guy without any batteries as Ihave plenty. The PExA is fairly cheap.
My thought was plumbing it all for at or less than $500.

[MonzaRacer]

Don't bother with Roxul, you don't need it. Roxul is Rock Wool, plenty of video's on it. Spend your money on spray foam, it's worth it.
1" of foam = R7 rating
Remember, a sprinkler system is always a good thing until it discharges- then it ruins everything you own in the space. It also requires a large flow rate. Plenty of 40 second chemical extinguishers should do. They aren't automatic obviously, but a heck of of lot cheaper.

According to MY RESEARCH I would need a MINIMUM of 3" of closed cell spray foam. At around 770 sq ft x $2 makes my ROOF $5k give or take. When I priced spraying 22+ft tall walls, 32 ft long and 22ft x 24 on one end and 22x12 (allowing for big garage door on end) my from and back walls (allowing for ALL of building) we are talking almost $15k in spray foam.
I can cover the whole building sides with ZipR12 for less, seal building up and get an R12 envelop cheaper. I've even seen a couple of contractors do a double roof, put down the Zip R12(in my case) THEN add some 2x2 to raise roof back up, and install this stuff that looks like plastic version of heavy steel wool to keep bugs and birds out but let it breath between layers and then lay second roof over first. Then install my metal roof and siding.
My thoughts are most pole bars are barely insulated, I let ZipR12 handle garage below, seal it as tight as possible, I even found R18 roll-up doors that are sweet, then with large volume in walls using 5 1/2" of rock wool batt then some Rockwool comfort board will give be walls upstairs that will make everyone sweat if someone lights a candle. My trusses for roof are gonna be scissor and I can get 6" top cord for very little so adding more roof insulation and then sheet it off. I'll have hanging down part of trusses painted with antistatic paint I found. It's kind of glossy but they make flattener in it if needed, and it's used on super high custom ceilings and alcoves.
So my cleaning would be a swiffer on a stick and 30 minutes.

[MonzaRacer]

Oh yeah my other concession is that because the building is going to be so big (tall) I will be using permacolumns and laminated 4ply 2x8 glued/mailed/finger joints columns so no treated lumber under ground.
Did talk to one lift company and they said if I wanted I could put concrete pedestals in for lift then use a different process of compacted #53 gravel and hot beetjuice extract that sets like concrete. Then epoxy coat floor.
And I can more easily insulate floor in garage but digging out,compacting rock and cement powder under floor, then add 2-4" of polystyrene sheeting between plastic, then cover it up and have floor sprayed down with that beet juice extract. Gets hard like fiberglass or epoxy and make solid floor. Looks like ass but figure once it sets, use epoxy garage floor paint.

[raustinss]

Bonus with rock wool aka roxul is its flame retarded and its a sound deadner too

[mbuenavides]

I wonder how this project turns out since it's been 2-years since this query was created.