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    1. #1
      Join Date
      Feb 2016
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      475

      Its almost 2020, has the definition of pro-touring changed?

      I read through most of the sticky of pro-touring defined. That post was created nearly 15 years ago. What I got from it was that you take an old car and make it handle good, well thats my short version at least. Having said that, what is considered an "old" car now days? Can you take an early 2000s car and make it pro-touring or is it still considered too new of a vehicle? Is there really a year limitation to a pro-touring car? Do imports count? To me, all pro-touring means is that you take a bone stock car and make it better in every way, in regards to performance of course. What are your guy's thoughts?

      1970 VW Bug - Just your average mid engine Bug
      Track toy - 06 Evo - E85 and lots of boost
      Newest track toy - 2021 Supra


    2. #2
      Join Date
      Oct 2018
      Location
      San Jose, CA
      Posts
      523

      Its almost 2020, has the definition of pro-touring changed?

      optima challenge series vintage class goes up to 1989. So that’s one data point.

      Interesting year because that was the year I bought my first new car - a 1989 IROC which I raced in various forms and drove on the street for 10 years. Now it’s in the vintage class. But the 1991 Corvette I had next isn’t. Go figure.
      1971 Camaro - 406 / T56
      2016 Camaro SS convertible
      2018 Colorado 4x4

    3. #3
      Join Date
      Oct 2014
      Location
      DFW, Texas
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      Country Flag: United States
      In my head, you can "pro-tour" up to about the early 90's as long as at least the powertrain has been brought up to today's standards. 3gen Camaro/Firebird, Fox Body Mustangs, C4 Corvette, etc.
      1972 Plymouth 'Cuda - Not LS-swapped, 5.7L Hemi [MS3 Gold Box], T56 Magnum 6-speed - 'Cuda Build Page
      1976 Dodge D100 - Warlock
      2016 Subaru WRX - E30 Tune

    4. #4
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      Feb 2016
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      Quote Originally Posted by c4racer2 View Post
      optima challenge series vintage class goes up to 1989. So that’s one data point.

      Interesting year because that was the year I bought my first new car - a 1989 IROC which I raced in various forms and drove on the street for 10 years. Now it’s in the vintage class. But the 1991 Corvette I had next isn’t. Go figure.
      Good point in bringing up optima. But at the same time, arent those supposed to be ultimate street cars? Is that different then PT? They dont care what year the car is.

      Quote Originally Posted by GoodysGotaCuda View Post
      In my head, you can "pro-tour" up to about the early 90's as long as at least the powertrain has been brought up to today's standards. 3gen Camaro/Firebird, Fox Body Mustangs, C4 Corvette, etc.
      I can see all those being able to be classified as PT. Does a modern power plant really have to be part of it though? Lots of guys run the OEM style engine in whatever car it is and have a competitive car. If you mean something like convert over from a carb to efi, I see it that way but I dont see the need to do a complete engine/ trans swap to be PT.
      1970 VW Bug - Just your average mid engine Bug
      Track toy - 06 Evo - E85 and lots of boost
      Newest track toy - 2021 Supra

    5. #5
      Join Date
      Oct 2018
      Location
      San Jose, CA
      Posts
      523

      Its almost 2020, has the definition of pro-touring changed?

      Agree. Doesn’t even have to be EFI in my book. I mean sure that’s better but carbs work perfectly well on the track and street when set up correctly.
      I think it’s more about modern tires, brakes, transmissions and suspension set up for handling combined with a motor that makes 400hp+ ideally since that’s the Benchmark in new muscle cars / sports sedans etc
      1971 Camaro - 406 / T56
      2016 Camaro SS convertible
      2018 Colorado 4x4

    6. #6
      Join Date
      Oct 2014
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      DFW, Texas
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      Quote Originally Posted by Bugzilla View Post
      I can see all those being able to be classified as PT. Does a modern power plant really have to be part of it though? Lots of guys run the OEM style engine in whatever car it is and have a competitive car. If you mean something like convert over from a carb to efi, I see it that way but I dont see the need to do a complete engine/ trans swap to be PT.
      Is "Pro-Touring" a specific competitive racing class anywhere, or is it just a public bucketing of a type of car with certain features? I'm just looking to have a discussion and not knock anyone's build in any way.

      I believe people commonly race in, say, the "SCCA CAM" class. While I am not up-to-speed on many of the available series, I haven't heard of a "Pro-Touring" class.

      That said, I see a "Pro-Touring" car as a older/classic vehicle that has had improvements made to bring it into the current standards of performance, comfort, reliability, etc. A wolf in sheep's clothing, if you consider something like a 60's or 70's Camaro/Mustang/'Cuda/etc. "sheep's clothing" I guess.

      For me, I see it needing a modern drivetrain. Sure, you can race and drive a carbureted car anywhere, they've been doing it for a century, but it's still an archaic design and is always compromising somewhere. TBI injection is substantially better, but most conversions are still flat-tappet, poorly gasketed/leaky and heavy all-iron engines. The other "required" part is within the powertrain, an overdrive transmission is a bare requirement. nobody actually enjoys going down the highway in a 4.10 axle car without overdrive, or a 2.94 axle car to they can keep the revs down. Throwing some 17s on an otherwise stock muscle certainly upgrades it aesthetically, but doesn't make it a whole lot better in any other aspect.
      1972 Plymouth 'Cuda - Not LS-swapped, 5.7L Hemi [MS3 Gold Box], T56 Magnum 6-speed - 'Cuda Build Page
      1976 Dodge D100 - Warlock
      2016 Subaru WRX - E30 Tune

    7. #7
      Join Date
      Sep 2014
      Location
      Sun City West, AZ
      Posts
      672
      Country Flag: United States
      You can also consider the Goodguys rule for classing the Pro-Class at their autocrosses. In my opinion, a car at least 25 years old should be the deciding factor. In most states that is the rule for Historical/Vintage vehicles being considered for special registration.

      In my opinion, the subject of "Pro-Touring" is hot rodding, taking something that is stock and customizing, making more power, something totally different than stock, etc., and either showing/cruising or competing with it in some form of competition like autocrosses or vintage racing. As for should it include non-American cars. I'm a little on the fence with this especially if it is not powered by an American V8. Although, some of our Hot Rodding fore-fathers did put some powerful V8s in the Anglias and VW bugs back in the day. That I would consider Hot Rodding thus, Pro-Touring. I'm not sure that I could accept the fact that it would be considered Hot Rodding with American V8 in a Subaru or a Hyundai and I hope someone doesn't waste a perfectly good V8 in one of those cars.
      --
      Kenny Mitchell
      [email protected]

    8. #8
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      Sep 2011
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      Southern Ontario
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      I agree with Kenny in saying that pro touring is hot rodding. Having said that, I would sum up pro touring as emulating a modern performance car. Comfort, performance, NVH. I think a lot of cars on here are not pt they are more race car.

    9. #9
      Join Date
      Oct 2018
      Location
      San Jose, CA
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      I guess depends on definitions eh. This car the 69 big red Camaro has often been touted as the best pro touring car of all time. No doubt it’s a race car. Also carburated.

      https://www.streetmusclemag.com/feat...e-whole-story/

      I think everybody had their own spin on it. Some are more race oriented - some are more comfort focused with things like AC and nice stereos and mild LS motors so basically emulating a modern Camaro or corvette in classic sheet metal.

      For me - I have a new Camaro which I love driving. The performance is incredible and the comfort and modern amenities like Apple car play and back up camera and all that are very nice. I drive it a lot. Has a stock LT1 making 455hp making it a very fast car.

      But when I went to build a classic car I didn’t want to emulate the experience of driving that car. I wanted a car that was more raw, faster but with similar handling / grip / braking and without a care for modern conveniences like ac. My car has a carbed 406 making 520hp. I will likely update to 4barrel style EFI and tweak the motor some to get around 600hp as my next step. But I have no interest in ac or a nice stereo. The car has factory style full interior with upgraded seats. I will add a harness bar but otherwise it looks like a 71 car inside. Full carpet. Dynamat. It’s pretty quiet inside and very easy to drive anywhere with a T56 - 2200rpm at 75 - the car will run all day long and go anywhere. Excellent cooling system. Has elec fuel pump which really limits any type of vapor lock - the car runs great always starts right up and is easy to drive in traffic. It has race quality brakes and 18” tires that add bigger footprint than my 2016 SS. Full handling suspension set up.

      Is my car pro touring ?

      Sure is to me.

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      1971 Camaro - 406 / T56
      2016 Camaro SS convertible
      2018 Colorado 4x4

    10. #10
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      Apr 2001
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      As I recall, I contributed heavily to that discussion many years ago. My stance now is that I just don't give a crap. Build what you want, however you want to build it, drive it, show it, call it what you want...:-)

      Andrew
      1970 GTO Version 3.0
      1967 Cougar build
      GM High-Tech Performance feature
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      Dr. EFI
      I deliver what EFI promises.
      Remote Holley EFI tuning.
      Please get in touch if I can be of service.

      "You were the gun, your voice was the trigger, your bravery was the barrel, your eyes were the bullets." ~ Her

    11. #11
      Join Date
      Sep 2016
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      Bakersfield, CA
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      Quote Originally Posted by andrewb70 View Post
      As I recall, I contributed heavily to that discussion many years ago. My stance now is that I just don't give a crap. Build what you want, however you want to build it, drive it, show it, call it what you want...:-)

      Andrew
      ^^^This.

      I feel like the term "Pro-Touring" is useless and outdated. Let's face it, everyone is upgrading older cars with newer stuff (save for original restorations of course). To put a requirement on a car being of a certain age or requiring a minimum of modern parts to fit someone's word for what to call it is a bit ridiculous if you ask me. Let's just call it what it is, modern hot rodding. Each generation has their own choice of cars to hot rod and ways to do it for making them "better" than original which is really the crux of it.
      http://www.TheFOAT.com/92GTA
      1969 Pontiac Firebird
      w/535ci IAII aluminum block, Dailey dry sump, Holley EFI (full road race build). Primer black w/black interior.
      1992 Pontiac Trans Am GTA w/SLP Performance Package. Dark Jade Grey Metallic, grey leather, T-Tops.

    12. #12
      Join Date
      Feb 2016
      Location
      SoCal
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      475
      Thanks for all the different options guys! Exactly what I was hoping for. In a way, I agree with everyone. Pro touring used to have a specific definition but now days, I think it doesnt mean a specific thing. More of just a car that has been modified to be better then it was in whatever way the owner felt nessecary.

      Me personally, I'm an import guy. I own one gm vehicle at the moment and it's my soccer dad suv, not a PT machine. Sure my Bug is GM powered but it's a 4 cyl, not a big nasty v8. It has no creature comforts so I dont count it as PT. It's too far gone and is a race car. And it's an import....

      My other car, which I think is more PT or modern hot roding is my evo. It's based off the same chassis that was built in 92 yet the car is an 06. It's got 400whp, it has modern suspension, it has good brakes, I can have a halfway decent conversation while driving down the highway at 75mph and of course, it has ac. I drive it to the track 200 miles away, win my class and drive it back home. I dont care what you call it, but that's pro touring to me.
      1970 VW Bug - Just your average mid engine Bug
      Track toy - 06 Evo - E85 and lots of boost
      Newest track toy - 2021 Supra

    13. #13
      Join Date
      Feb 2019
      Posts
      270
      I'm still a newbe here. I always thought Pro-Touring cars were classics built up to be bad ass corner carvers with the higher-end aftermarket chassis, suspension, and brake parts. Pro-Street would be the classics set up as drag cars, and Restomods I guess a combination of them-restored and modded up to be better than original in every way, but not as extreme.

    14. #14
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      Oct 2018
      Location
      San Jose, CA
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      523
      Quote Originally Posted by andrewb70 View Post
      As I recall, I contributed heavily to that discussion many years ago. My stance now is that I just don't give a crap. Build what you want, however you want to build it, drive it, show it, call it what you want...:-)

      Andrew
      couldn't agree more! this is a completely individual hobby - unless you are building them to sell to a specific audience or something!
      1971 Camaro - 406 / T56
      2016 Camaro SS convertible
      2018 Colorado 4x4

    15. #15
      Join Date
      Aug 2007
      Posts
      641
      I think Pro Tour has moved very fast over the years. First good handling with mostly stock chassis and then moved to all new front and rear suspensions. Or complete new chassis. LS engines have made fast cars easier to build.
      So my current hot rod is a 1968 C10. Built LS6. T56 Magnum. C5 brakes all around. Lowered 4/6 drop. Tubular a-arms. Big front sway bar. Goes down the road super straight. 10 years ago it was pro tour but today who knows.
      My pro fun driver is a 98 Wrangler with a LS6 swap. Its quite quick but not the best handler. With a 2" lift it leans a bit in the corners. But in a straight line and 4:10 gears its not slow.
      The bad thing like most sports is that to build a competitive pro tour car is the cost.

    16. #16
      Join Date
      Sep 2007
      Posts
      424
      What cars can be PT?

      I think the tipping factor is whether the car warrants major modifications from stock just to fit in with PT ideals.


      A 1992 Camaro or Mustang? "Yeah."

      A 1992 Viper? "Umm, I dunno . . . what have you done to it?"

    17. #17
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      May 2010
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      kitchener,Ontario,Canada
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      I think pro touring is going to continue to evolve , more into active ( electronic)suspensions. Might as well toss in some "pro luxury " on there too. I see more modern car creature comforts working there way into cars a little more seamlessly.
      Spinnin'my tires in life's fast lane

      Ryan Austin
      On twitter @raustinss
      On Instagram austinss70

    18. #18
      Join Date
      Oct 2018
      Location
      San Jose, CA
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      523
      Quote Originally Posted by raustinss View Post
      I think pro touring is going to continue to evolve , more into active ( electronic)suspensions. Might as well toss in some "pro luxury " on there too. I see more modern car creature comforts working there way into cars a little more seamlessly.
      meh - it's a lot cheaper to buy those luxury cars separately and complete rather than integrating into your PT car. Just saying!
      For me it's a Panamera S!
      1971 Camaro - 406 / T56
      2016 Camaro SS convertible
      2018 Colorado 4x4

    19. #19
      Join Date
      Nov 2012
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      346
      Country Flag: United States
      A pro-touring car does not have a contemporaneous engine, and has substantially improved suspension. Anything short of that is a restomod. JMO, of course.
      _______________
      1969 Camaro
      1966 Skylark
      1964 Lemans
      1960 Biscayne
      Steve

    20. #20
      Join Date
      Sep 2016
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      Bakersfield, CA
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      Quote Originally Posted by Zoomin View Post
      A pro-touring car does not have a contemporaneous engine
      I'm curious of your definition here. For example, I run a 1969 Pontiac 400 block, but with a serpentine setup, electric water pump, Edelbrock aluminum heads, and Holley EFI. I'd say that's more than upgraded enough to be considered PT. Hell, I consider EFI enough of an upgrade. But at the same time, I've seem some carb'd LS engines that are for sure PT.

      I think rather than calling an engine contemporary, anything upgraded from stock could qualify as part of a PT build.
      http://www.TheFOAT.com/92GTA
      1969 Pontiac Firebird
      w/535ci IAII aluminum block, Dailey dry sump, Holley EFI (full road race build). Primer black w/black interior.
      1992 Pontiac Trans Am GTA w/SLP Performance Package. Dark Jade Grey Metallic, grey leather, T-Tops.

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