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    1. #61
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      Quote Originally Posted by jetmech442 View Post
      There's a ton to be learned from the arduino/Can-shield setup. It may be possible to get just that system to work live on your car, but I don't think I'm good enough to figure it out. The Raspbertry Pi/ PiCan2 seems promising, but I got bogged down trying to get the lcd screen to work so I wouldn't have to bring my laptop in the car each time I wanted to record data of my buddies FRS.

      If you figure anything or have any questions let me know and maybe one of us will crack this thing.
      I'm going to give this a shot.



      http://myraceshop.com/Legacy_Power_S...Controlle.html

      Unfortunately it will be a while before I can post results, like a year or so. Good luck on this, cracking the CAN would allow people to use the more modern power racks.


    2. #62
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      Quote Originally Posted by Vimes View Post
      I'm going to give this a shot.

      http://myraceshop.com/Legacy_Power_S...Controlle.html

      Unfortunately it will be a while before I can post results, like a year or so. Good luck on this, cracking the CAN would allow people to use the more modern power racks.
      Looks like that product controls an electric fluid pump (preferred from an MR2) base don vehicle speed only. Its probably the easiest way for variable assist, but is not the same as an electric-only(no fluid) power assist. Looks like Fleabay has the MR2 pump for around 300$ so not cheap for an older, used pump, and if it can be mounted to the engine or frame easily then it would probly be a pretty good option. I've go a lot of open projects open at the moment, mostly car, but also some more house/family stuff(yes some more trees had to be slabbed lol), but I plan to pick this back up pretty aggressive as winter nears.

      - - - Updated - - -

      Quote Originally Posted by David Pozzi View Post
      I made this a Sticky so it can be more easily found. It has some great tech, (except for the Tree part)...
      Honestly David, I'm honored. I know that probly sounds silly, but I'm more motivated now to be able to add a "Solved" tag at the end of the title now more than ever.

      1969 442 6.0L LQ9 T56
      Fab9 w/ custom 3 Link conversion
      FAYS2 Watts link
      Thanks to Mark at SC&C for his honesty and passion for the sport, and Ron Sutton for the wealth of knowledge that has helped shape so many of the cars on this site.

    3. #63
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      Quote Originally Posted by jetmech442 View Post
      Objective:
      Integrate a 2014 toyota FRS Electric Power Steering(EPS) system into my ’69 Cutlass, allowing the steering ECU to vary assist levels based on vehicle speed, mph, torque input and steering angle.
      Motivation:
      This car has always been more of a journey-not-destination thing for me. And as such I'm at the point where the Grand Jeep Cherokee steering box and stock LQ9 pump with Turn One reducer valve just isn't doing it for me anymore. I'd love to give Turn one or Lee a thousand dollars, but I don't have that kind of money, plus getting the known easy solution isn't my thing for some reason, I guess I just like the challenge of integration. I've got a build thread over on LS1tech https://ls1tech.com/forums/conversio...version-2.html where I started, if anyone is interested.
      I’ll state here that I am not a CANBUS expert, I’m merely a novice with an Arduino and CANshield that is pulling data from multiple sources and doing his best to put the pieces of the puzzle together. I love discussion and feedback and always am eager to learn from the awesome people here at protouring and my goal is to help others on their path.

      So this project, as most of mine do, stands on the shoulders of giants. Below is where the majority of my knowledge came from-people freely sharing what they've learned for the love of cars. Hopefully someone someday will use this to do something even cooler(also kind of assuming that this project is successful in the end, lol). I'm a thermal engineer by day, which means I know lots about temperature and not lots about CANBUS or electronics. I dabble in Arduino, but most of what I do with it is based re-purposing other peoples code-guess I'm trying to say that I don't think this is out of anyone’s ability if they have the desire.
      CAN equipment
      I am using a Seedtudio v1.2. there is a new version out since I’ve had mine for a while, but I don’ think it does anything significantly different.
      http://wiki.seeedstudio.com/CAN-BUS_Shield_V2.0/
      This stacks on top of a basic Arduino Uno. And plugs into the car using the OBD-connector and DB9-connector that Seedstudio sells.
      There are tons of ways though. I have run into a lot of people who been very successful with the SocketCan, which utilizes Linux and a direct port into a laptop. Since I plan to convert my current rpm/VSS into a CAN message and broadcast, the arduino seemed like the best path for me though.


      Different ways to get assist from your unit:
      There's several way to tackle this. Some just hook up power(no CANBUS) and have full assist at all times. some hook up what I assume is a pwm circuit and dial in what they want which is the same across all speed levels. My contribution will be(hopefully) adding in the CANBUS communication to the toyota steering ECU and letting the algorithms control assist based on VSS, rpm, steering torque and steering angle. So, as we all know, OEM's spend quite a bit of time tuning the EPS for steering feel. I assume that they spend more time on "feel" for the FRS than they do a Yaris or Prius, so I scooped up a 2014 FRS EPS with ECU. I plan to convert the RPM and VSS from the LS1b GM ECU into CANBUS signals and let it do its thing. That's the plan at least!!!! I'll post more as I make progress, hoping this won't take too long. Below is a quick pic of the EPS in the back seat.

      Attachment 159158

      Knowledge sources
      So to start with, Waid302 posts in vintage mustang what I consider the best starting place for understanding the project. Its a huge read, but worth it. He provided a ton of pics and diagrams which are enormously helpful-especially if you just want a Prius unit to give full assist.
      https://forums.vintage-mustang.com/m...cs-videos.html

      dobrostand has a thread in the same forum detailing specifics of the driveability of the system, which led me to believe this might just be worth it.
      https://forums.vintage-mustang.com/m...ivability.html

      Also on Vintage mustang- Andrewb70, originally known to me as project_GatToGo and who is a huge inspiration to my build, details the specifics of installing in his cougar, but also takes it a step further at getting his dominator to provide VSS to the prius ECU for variable assist. Also pretty much lays out all the details for fab/install that you could ever want,assuming you are skilled with a whizwheelofdeath, lol. Additionaly, he brings up the detail that the ECU needs to run a centering calibration if any of the parts have been mismatched, replaced or otherwise tampered with.
      https://forums.vintage-mustang.com/m...s-install.html


      I believe those threads should be sufficient to get a Yaris/Prius or Saturn Vue EPS installed and supplying full assist. The nice thing about the Japanese EPS systems is that they supply full assist in default mode if no CAN signals are received. The Vue uses an aftermarket box that dials in "fixed" assist. Lots of people feel fine with that, I might also, but I like being a nerd so I'm looking into supplying the proper CANBus channels.

      The next major source of info is some enginerds at the University of Tulsa has published some papers on CANBUS hacking. They provide the engine speed HexID (2C4), and a version of the vehicle speed(610). I'm not entirely sure ID 610 is what the Steering ECU is looking for based on some info I find down below, but we'll get to that. This paper is awesome at showing the methodology for grabbing canbus data and then deciphering it. These guys are the real deal.
      http://tucrrc.utulsa.edu/ToyotaCAN.html

      Then, Fabio published a youtube video of a camera synced with CANBus data in a 2010 Camry. This allows you to see the structure of the CAN message for RPM (2C4) and Vehicle speed(both “B4” and “610”).
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHRPmjwXF1U


      I would say this entire paper is a must-read and is also the most indepth of anything I've found so far. It talks about great details for ford and Toyota steering/braking Canbus interfaces. Specifically, page 41 shows how ID B4(vehicle speed) is not only structured in the way of what bits mean what, but also how to combine them, and the importance of the "checksum" bit at the end of the messages for toyota. If the different nodes don't see the checksum, they will ignore the message all together. I don't know if this is all OEM's or just Toyota.
      http://illmatics.com/car_hacking.pdf

      Sorry to jump into this thread asking something not 100% related but I can't find a way to message you privately.
      I own a FRS and I'm trying to find a way to make the steering heavier (i.e. reduce power steering) and I think the only way to do so is to trick the controller by modifying the signal coming from the torque sensor so that it will "think" you're applying less torque to the steering wheel therefore it should reduce power steering force.
      Do you know how can I achieve this?
      I've read that the torque sensor 4 wires connect to the 12 pin connector but what do I have to do with these?
      Put a resistor in line with a specific cable out of this connector? But I don't think it's as easy as that, is it?
      Thank you so much in advance.

    4. #64
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      Macostech,
      For what you are describing, you would need to Intercept the CAN signal as it is broadcast from the source(before it reaches anywhere else on the bus).Then your CAN controller would need to modify that signals contents to what you want(lower torque), and then let that modified signal carry on the the rest of the car. I think 0x370 is the correct channel name for steering torque(had to go back to pg 2 to refresh my memory).

      So to clarify, you would need to splice into the can wires that come out of the steering ECU and insert a CAN controller. based on my experience above, I would skip the arduino, and go straight to the raspberry pi. You will need to listen for 0x370 and experiment with your car to see how the signal reacts. This thread should have enough to get you started, but it's definitely not easy. If you make any headway let me know for sure, we'll need all the we can get to solve this.

      1969 442 6.0L LQ9 T56
      Fab9 w/ custom 3 Link conversion
      FAYS2 Watts link
      Thanks to Mark at SC&C for his honesty and passion for the sport, and Ron Sutton for the wealth of knowledge that has helped shape so many of the cars on this site.

    5. #65
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      Would putting wider tires accomplish the same thing?
      1970 GTO Version 3.0
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    6. #66
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      Quote Originally Posted by jetmech442 View Post
      Looks like that product controls an electric fluid pump (preferred from an MR2) base don vehicle speed only. Its probably the easiest way for variable assist, but is not the same as an electric-only(no fluid) power assist.
      Yeah, but I figure the controller won't know whether it's working with an MR2 pump or an electric drive unit. I've since picked up a 2010ish Corolla electric column drive power steering unit. It looks compact enough to fit under my dash invisibly, and power assist can be controlled with a POT feeding an input on the control board. I'll be using this board to control that input instead of a dash-mounted POT. Going to be a bit longer than I thought on getting it in though as I've only just in the last week (FINALLY!!!) gotten a shop to commit to my project but he won't have an opening in his shop until April 2021 at the earliest.

    7. #67
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      Quote Originally Posted by Vimes View Post
      Yeah, but I figure the controller won't know whether it's working with an MR2 pump or an electric drive unit. I've since picked up a 2010ish Corolla electric column drive power steering unit. It looks compact enough to fit under my dash invisibly, and power assist can be controlled with a POT feeding an input on the control board. I'll be using this board to control that input instead of a dash-mounted POT. Going to be a bit longer than I thought on getting it in though as I've only just in the last week (FINALLY!!!) gotten a shop to commit to my project but he won't have an opening in his shop until April 2021 at the earliest.
      Since you'll be manipulating steering feel based on vehicle speed, make sure you have a good reference vehicle speed signal, or at least consider what will happen in highly dynamic circumstances (i.e. wheel lockup or wheelspin). You need more than just one wheel speed sensor as an input to do this correctly.

      Also, for anyone considering these "small car" column mount EPS systems for pro-touring cars, remember they're designed for ~3000 lb cars with skinny all season tires. I'd have durability concerns if I was considering putting one in a 4000 lb pro-touring car with sticky 275+ tires, especially if you're thinking autocross or track use.
      - Ryan

    8. #68
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      Quote Originally Posted by stab6902 View Post
      Since you'll be manipulating steering feel based on vehicle speed, make sure you have a good reference vehicle speed signal, or at least consider what will happen in highly dynamic circumstances (i.e. wheel lockup or wheelspin). You need more than just one wheel speed sensor as an input to do this correctly.

      Also, for anyone considering these "small car" column mount EPS systems for pro-touring cars, remember they're designed for ~3000 lb cars with skinny all season tires. I'd have durability concerns if I was considering putting one in a 4000 lb pro-touring car with sticky 275+ tires, especially if you're thinking autocross or track use.
      That's a great point Stab about the heat generation(and the speed sensor too lol). Since our cars are heavier and being used for HPDE events and coupled with generally higher ambient(no AC and close to the firewall) this is something that would need to be tested. I'd be surprised if one of the CAN channels didn't report temperature for de-rate purposes.

      After I got it working properly, I had planned on thermocoupling the SCU and motor and boxing in my test bench so I could cyclically load it to represent a track session for 20 minutes. My life is overloaded right now, so anyone working on this would be wise to try and duct some airflow to the motor or have a way to actively monitor temps so it doesn't shut down unexpectedly during a session.

      1969 442 6.0L LQ9 T56
      Fab9 w/ custom 3 Link conversion
      FAYS2 Watts link
      Thanks to Mark at SC&C for his honesty and passion for the sport, and Ron Sutton for the wealth of knowledge that has helped shape so many of the cars on this site.

    9. #69
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      Quote Originally Posted by stab6902 View Post
      Also, for anyone considering these "small car" column mount EPS systems for pro-touring cars, remember they're designed for ~3000 lb cars with skinny all season tires. I'd have durability concerns if I was considering putting one in a 4000 lb pro-touring car with sticky 275+ tires, especially if you're thinking autocross or track use.
      I actually did think about that. My thinking is that the Corolla has to be able to carry its own 2800lbs, tow 1500lbs and carry as many as 5 adults at 750ish lbs. In addition, the steering system has to be able to force the drive axles to turn even under WOT while carrying this weight. And this is where I think the key is - while my truck will weigh more, the front wheels will be unpowered. I figure that no engine torque on the front wheels should allow the EPS to control a slightly heavier vehicle. I wouldn't consider this on a heavy truck, but mine weighs right at 4000lbs stock with no driver and a full tank of gas, and I've not started weight reduction at all. When it's all said and done, my target weight for my truck will be 3600lbs. Dropping 400lbs off the truck shouldn't be too much of a deal with the work I have planned, so the EPS should be able to handle it.

    10. #70
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      I think tire size/compound, vehicle weight, and lateral accel are much bigger contributors to EPS load than torque steer. Lots of people are having issues with their Toyota FRS/BRZ's EPS systems on the track with only the addition of stickier tires: https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90718

      I'm not trying to pick on any particular OEM/supplier either, as lots of platforms have similar issues -
      BMW: https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1383918
      VW: https://www.vwvortex.com/threads/ele...dvice.4302388/
      Ford: https://www.focusrs.org/threads/powe...-track.117784/
      etc.

      Overall I like EPS, especially the newer rack mount units, and I think they're getting better every year and generally have fewer issues than hydraulic power steering systems. Since EPS units come from more modern and highly integrated cars, however, you have to be extra careful to get the electrical integration and sizing right. I think you guys are on the right track and wish you luck in getting it figured out!
      - Ryan

    11. #71
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      Tangential, but apparently the early Mustang stuff isn't as integrated into the PCM. And the software is not really secure. I am way out of my specialty here, but talking to a friend from when I was at Ford (engine development), and he is relaying some stories to me, this being one. I believe it was 2011 for the first year, seems we never had to protect for the PS pump when I was working on the Coyote.
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    12. #72
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      Quote Originally Posted by 67King View Post
      Tangential, but apparently the early Mustang stuff isn't as integrated into the PCM. And the software is not really secure. I am way out of my specialty here, but talking to a friend from when I was at Ford (engine development), and he is relaying some stories to me, this being one. I believe it was 2011 for the first year, seems we never had to protect for the PS pump when I was working on the Coyote.

      Hey 67king that's really good info! I have a feeling that 'yota put more effort into security than others at the time due to the"run away pedal" in the... Prius I think? I've never had the opportunity to drive a mustang but I've ridden in them. Are you a fan of the electric steering feel in them? They'd obviously be better suited to the heft of the a bodies so someone may find that a good option and much easier to integrate it sounds like.

      1969 442 6.0L LQ9 T56
      Fab9 w/ custom 3 Link conversion
      FAYS2 Watts link
      Thanks to Mark at SC&C for his honesty and passion for the sport, and Ron Sutton for the wealth of knowledge that has helped shape so many of the cars on this site.

    13. #73
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      Who knows? This was going on when headcount was horrendously low. I started in 2000, left in the middle of 2007. There were separations in October, 2006, and then again a few months after I left. By then, 50% of the engineering staff had left from the time I started. So it may have just been an accepted risk given that there wouldn't be any risk to emissions or whatever.

      Sadly, I have still not driven one of the Mustangs. So I dont' know. I can just share that my father-in-law, who works for Porsche at the PEC in Atlanta as a driver, absolutely loves the GT350......and he hates everything that isn't made by Porsche. He loves everything about it. I'd love to try it, but I don't have the skills with PCM stuff that you do. I'd like to just get my car a little further along, too!
      67 GTO - Build underway
      66 Bronco U13 Roadster
      And a couple of 80's Porsches

    14. #74
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      I'm currently working on getting this to function and if you want to share some information I'd be happy to report back. I am using a significantly more robust system on the CAN side (all MoTeC) so I can do some capture, test, and send that is a little easier to work with and fast enough that nothing gets dropped. As far as I know the checksums from the ECU out to the CAN bus don't exist for at least RPM. Vehicle speed however I think may come from the ABS system so I'm not sure just yet if it does or does not have them.

    15. #75
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      Quote Originally Posted by jetmech442 View Post
      Hey Fabry,
      I'm glad the thread is of some use to you. I admit a lot of the knowledge was pieced together from the threads you subaru guys posted. The reason behind the FRS unit and not something out of an SUV, was that I thought the programming/ calibration of the FRS was great. My hope was to see how well that stock system would work if I fed it factory style inputs.

      It hasn't been installed yet. I realized that the arduino Can-shield isn't fast enough to collect the entire message and broadcast what I need. I switched over to a PiCan2 /Raspberry PI setup and then got buried by work/home/ and now quarantine.

      As far as your failsafe issue, you may try to feed some cool air to the motor controller and/or the motor itself. I'm not sure if the motor temperature is actually measured or if it is predicted based on usage. If your under-dash temps are hotter than the Corolla then that might explain it...

      Hi Jetmech,

      sorry for this long time to reply, but i'm very busy by my job...I don't have time for power on my Subie!

      I don't remenber if in this thread was mentioned, but the FRS\BRZ EPS you can find a issue on the elastic jonier (copuler) inside the motor (join the motor with the screw) you can find info about this on this link:

      https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133606


      So, about my corsa EPS, I think the limit is the motor and the ECU...DC Electronics from UK use my system with diffeert controllwer, controller made by DC, but for what I've seen this system is for lightwheight car...

      So, I'v buyed a RAV4 EPS and a FRS\BRZ EPS...both work great whitout CAN-BUS signals, as mentioned by someone they work in a FailSafe mode...yesterday nigth I've tried to keep some info about CAN-BUS signal for this EPS...and I've find some docs that maybe can be usefull...or I hope so!


      Attacched you can find the docs!

      24231-paper.pdf
      122809_Communication_with_a_Toyota_Prius.pdf
      can message injection.pdf
      car_hacking.pdf
      fv075-peseA.pdf
      parallel autonomy.pdf



      So, for now I tested the EPS only on the bech...need to finish some things on my Subie and then try to mount...I like to have a collapsible sistem like the oem for safety...and if is possible also the tilt system for more confort...(but I think a fixed system is more strong)

      Bye
      Fabry

    16. #76
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      Quote Originally Posted by v413nc3 View Post
      I'm currently working on getting this to function and if you want to share some information I'd be happy to report back. I am using a significantly more robust system on the CAN side (all MoTeC) so I can do some capture, test, and send that is a little easier to work with and fast enough that nothing gets dropped. As far as I know the checksums from the ECU out to the CAN bus don't exist for at least RPM. Vehicle speed however I think may come from the ABS system so I'm not sure just yet if it does or does not have them.
      We've chatted through PM a couple times and it's got me thinking. I've made some assumptions about the system, that at this point aren't backed up. The biggest one is that "assist vs torque" is reduced at vehicle speed. The system clearly has a torque sensor, perhaps it provides assist based on need. I'm not sure, but will try to figure that out. Theres a new guy at work with an FRS and once the snow melts he'll let me grab some more data, hopefully I can get the PiCan2 properly to capture the entire channel.

      Additionally, a guy contacted me through WheelWell about this. he's got what looks to be a wicked maroon-red time attack Impreza with 315's on all corners and the frs column spliced in using "default" mode. he reported that the wheel self centered nicely, and that the feel was really good. Again, I'm wondering if the FRS still lets the torque sensor function properly in default mode, and perhaps the prius system either doesn't have a torque sensor or doesn't let it function in default. He didn't use techstream either to re-zero wheel position.

      Now, maybe his steering forces are overcoming what the SCU is trying to do since he has some pretty high camber/caster and ultra wide tires. This would be great since most of us are trying to install it on vehicles with similar setups(big tires, high caster...etc).

      He did mention the SCU getting extremely hot, as @stab6902 also mentioned. Luckily thermal performance and simulation is my actual day job, so I will be able to evaluate a mitigation prior to install.

      1969 442 6.0L LQ9 T56
      Fab9 w/ custom 3 Link conversion
      FAYS2 Watts link
      Thanks to Mark at SC&C for his honesty and passion for the sport, and Ron Sutton for the wealth of knowledge that has helped shape so many of the cars on this site.

    17. #77
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      Still following along. Good stuff Scott!

      Andrew
      1970 GTO Version 3.0
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      Dr. EFI
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      Remote Holley EFI tuning.
      Please get in touch if I can be of service.

      "You were the gun, your voice was the trigger, your bravery was the barrel, your eyes were the bullets." ~ Her

    18. #78
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      I've come across a potential electrohydraulic system, for anyone who is interested. MOPAR part number 52124998AJ is an electrohydraulic power steering pump, and came on 2011-2013 Dodge Durangos and Jeep Grand Cherokees. This is designed from the factory to manage a 5000lb RWD or AWD vehicle using rack and pinion steering, so it's going to easily handle just about anything this forum could throw at it. I can see this being used by someone who needs the space where the power steering pump is located to run



      I still plan to use a Toyota column drive unit for my project, which is already sitting on my shelf, but I figured someone else might be able to make use of this.

    19. #79
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      Forgive me if the question has been answered already...

      With all of the engine swaps and challenges with front accessory drives, why don’t we see more electric power steering pumps around? The traditional belt driven pump probably doesn’t steal a ton of HP from the engine, but it seems like a dedicated electric pump like the one above could be mounted most anywhere and supply hydraulic fluid pressure to a steering box without interacting with the engine. I see that as a benefit but it is clearly not the norm with most steering box vehicles.

      I imagine the current draw is significant, and I realize that puts a greater load on the alternator (thus stealing HP). But times of maximum steering effort probably don’t occur when the engine is heavily loaded. I’m thinking diving into the turn while you decelerate is a time when you can give away some HP.

      Or is there a safety/reliability factor, and you wouldn’t want to rely on an electrical system that could leave you [all of the sudden] without power steering? Or are they just expensive to manufacture?

      Side note- it sure would make an LT swap into a muscle car more desirable.

    20. #80
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      Quote Originally Posted by TanMan View Post
      Forgive me if the question has been answered already...

      With all of the engine swaps and challenges with front accessory drives, why don’t we see more electric power steering pumps around? The traditional belt driven pump probably doesn’t steal a ton of HP from the engine, but it seems like a dedicated electric pump like the one above could be mounted most anywhere and supply hydraulic fluid pressure to a steering box without interacting with the engine. I see that as a benefit but it is clearly not the norm with most steering box vehicles.

      I imagine the current draw is significant, and I realize that puts a greater load on the alternator (thus stealing HP). But times of maximum steering effort probably don’t occur when the engine is heavily loaded. I’m thinking diving into the turn while you decelerate is a time when you can give away some HP.

      Or is there a safety/reliability factor, and you wouldn’t want to rely on an electrical system that could leave you [all of the sudden] without power steering? Or are they just expensive to manufacture?

      Side note- it sure would make an LT swap into a muscle car more desirable.
      The biggest reason people don't do it is electrohydraulic PS pumps are damned near impossible to find, and the ones that have been available have been for tiny cars like the Toyota MR2. And, when the OEMs started going electric they also started using CAN data to control them, which if you've read this thread you've seen the CAN is not the easiest thing to defeat/work around. Plus, the assist is either on/off, or uses a potentiometer to manually adjust but that either requires you to keep fiddling with it, or find one setting that sorta works and you just work around it. Then there's the aftermarket systems, which cost a grand or more and don't have the greatest reviews.

      I've found a board that may let me get speed-adjusted assist from my Toyota unit, but at the rate I'm going it'll be a couple of years before I find out. As of now, I have no idea if it'll work or not.

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