Ron Sutton

[sccacuda]

I think there are quite a few that don't use the LatG forum. Was very surprised no one ever posted links or discussed this here.

When it all became public: https://lateral-g.net/forums/showthr...=56209&page=54

And the only time Ron ever responded to any of this: http://lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php?t=56814

You'll see a few people posting positive experiences. A couple of the same people I said that had similar issues to mine, and were afraid to say anything bad about Ron, are the same ones posting these "positive" experiences. I guess they think it will make Ron fulfill his obligation to help with setup.



I emailed Ron when this was all happening (the ONLY time he has ever responded so quickly to text or emails!) and ask if he was still going to help with setup on the cars being built with his stuff, regardless of how this turned out. His response was, "I'll be there for you if I can stay in business".
This kinda rubbed me the wrong way, because regardless if he stays in business, he made a commitment to us. He was available on the forums before he had a business, why wouldn't he be after?
Then it dawned on me. He was never here helping us out for free in the beginning, it was part of a larger plan. He saw a market potential, slowly ingratiated himself into the community with "free" advise, and then began to capitalize on that by offering pay services. Pay services were then combined with pay seminars and parts sales, and before you knew it, Ron was making really good money off/from our community.

He started on these forums because he saw the potential for money, not because he was "just giving back" like he used to say in the beginning. Now that the money potential is gone, so is the "just giving back" help.

[Turbo6inKY]

I think there are quite a few that don't use the LatG forum. Was very surprised no one ever posted links or discussed this here.

Surely. I didn't even know the place existed until Valerie mentioned it at the PT.com SEMA dinner a few weeks ago. Still glad I found it. Looks like a fun board.

You'll see a few people posting positive experiences. A couple of the same people I said that had similar issues to mine, and were afraid to say anything bad about Ron, are the same ones posting these "positive" experiences. I guess they think it will make Ron fulfill his obligation to help with setup.

Only they can tell. Despite lurking on this forum for over a decade, I'm pretty new to this community, at least as a participating member. I can say the ubiquity of Mr. Sutton was surprising. I never dealt with him directly, but I did get a lot from Lance's work with him on his Monte. Some of what they did was reinventing a lot of the work Marcus Savitske did fifteen years ago (which itself re-discovered some stuff the circle track folks had figured out in the late '70s). Some was good 'ol trial and error that nobody had bothered to do (or never bothered to share). The redundancy aside, they put all of that together in a package of knowledge that helped me and my car. That contribution was real.

I never got the sense from anybody (until now) that Mr. Sutton was leading anybody on, but I did wonder about the workload. All we ever saw was Ron. He was the guy on the internet talking. He was the guy on the podcasts. He was the guy travelling all over the place doing the seminars. He was the guy developing the parts. Testing the parts. Fabbing the parts. Shipping the parts. For isntance, there was a Torque Arm setup for the G-Body in his catalog. I haven't seen a single person actually running the kit. So was it really a kit, or a collection of weld-on parts from the Howe or Speedway catalog that he expected to develop on the first person that ordered it?

I also was puzzled as to how he got so big in the PT community. I read his threads here on suspension set up. But his solutions weren't showing up on cars that were winning in the places I was paying attention. That's mostly SCCA Solo for the last twenty years, but I've run optima the last three. Narrow focus, I admit, but the SCCA Solo people are fad-tastic and will try anything. Then again, they also know conclusively after the very next Champ tour if the fad worked or not, so stuff that doesn't work tends not to survive long.

How was it possible? I think we've learned it wasn't possible. But was it part of a long con, or a guy that just bit off more than he could chew?

Again, I wasn't a customer, I never interacted with him directly, and I'm generally not a mean person. So I want my opinion to tend towards the latter. But the stuff I'm reading from sources like yourself indicates that some of the customers that are currently holding the bag are tending towards the former. The fact he stated they were going to fix Mr. Weld's car after Mr. Weld had clearly fired him is clearly troubling. Either he naively thought he'd be able to get the business back after that dumpster fire of a weekend they had, or he was trying to mislead. Only he knows which at this point.

Then again, maybe my confusion is a result of a fantastic brand marketer that managed to imbue such a large amount of perceived goodwill that people are reluctant to turn on him, even faced with what we're seeing?

I dunno. I'm just glad the discussion around the topic hasn't become toxic and hyperbolic. I've been on the interwebz since the late 1980s, starting in BBS's and Usenet. I've seen lots of scammers and frauds exposed and watched the feeding frenzy that always ensues. I've never seen as measured a response to what is at the least a clear case of bad business, but also could be a case of systemic fraud. Ever.

I like you people.

[sccacuda]

Craig, I bet that felt good to get off your chest!

Something I should have done a long time ago...and yes, like a weight lifted.

I have a RSRT sticker on the bottom of my 4 post lift that I used to kick the sh#t out of every time I ran into an issue. That sticker is finally in the trash. Closing that chapter and moving forward with my build.

[Flash68]

I have a RSRT sticker on the bottom of my 4 post lift that I used to kick the sh#t out of every time I ran into an issue. That sticker is finally in the trash.

I have some entertaining photos and videos of what some people have done with Ron Sutton "swag" since his implosion...

[parsonsj]

I like you people

That's good to hear! We've had our share of pile-ons in the past, and there are quite a few "former" members who lost their good standing here with childish rants and name-calling. But the community has matured, and we work at keeping the conversations adult-like and respectful.

[jaybee]

I've never built cars for a living, but I understand business. Particularly the trucking business. It's something most people have enough familiarity with to get, so I'll put my comments in that framework.

There are a lot of people out there who are really good truck drivers. There's a lot more to it than holding a steering wheel, they're really technicians. Hours of service regulations, mechanical and cargo inspections, proper handling of bills of lading, watching the temperature if temp-controlled, all while planning at least a day or more down the road to make sure they manage their available hours to make all their pickups and deliveries on time. It's not a small thing.

At some point a lot of them decide to own a truck and become owner/operators. That's a whole different set of skills...business skills. An awful lot of them never get that part right. They go broke, lose their trucks, and go back to driving for someone else. They're still very good truck drivers, but they aren't business owners.

A chunk of the folks who make it there decide to get more trucks and hire people to drive them. Often they do OK if they have just an additional 1 or 2 and can recruit people they know well and trust to work for them.

Again, that's all the farther it usually goes. Even at that level there are very few who have what it takes to continue expanding and build an ongoing, profitable operation of any size. It's no fun to watch anyone flail at any of those levels. They do things they told themselves they'd never do. They get angry and cranky and make enemies even if they're fundamentally decent people. They get real desperate to keep the wheels on the wagon. At some point they realize they just can't make it happen, or they're stubborn enough to make someone take it away from them.

Then they go back to doing what they're good at.

[sccacuda]

Hi John,

You are spot on!

Problem is, Ron's previous business failed and went to bankruptcy as well, or as Ron says, "I closed operations for Ron Sutton's Winner's Circle driver development program & sold my 9 race teams, rigs, etc at the end of 2012".

Same type of situation, over selling and under delivering...maybe this IS what he is good at...

https://www.courtlistener.com/opinio...ly-ann-sutton/

[raustinss]

Oh yeah I forgot about that case , read it a few years back . Quite an eye opener. All I can say is glad I never dealt with him .

[TheJDMan]

I'm still waiting for the book that we were supposed to get with the first of his suspension seminars three years ago.

[Turbo6inKY]

I'm still waiting for the book that we were supposed to get with the first of his suspension seminars three years ago.

You can file with the bankruptcy court as a creditor. :-p

[Greg Weld]

Did Ron close up shop. His on line catalogue is gone.

Charley

Sutton is a master of “marketing” and twisting words.... just like the lawsuit states.... it’s linked in one of the posts here in this thread. Basically NASCAR said “cease and desist” using their name.... his response was along the lines of ==== but can’t I just say this or this (misleading still). All he wanted to do was change a few words so he could comply and still mislead.

My name has been brought up in the thread here.... so felt I should respond. I was Suttons biggest fan boi - and biggest customer - lender - and dumbass sucker.

Here’s what I will state. He was a low end dirt track race car team owner. He was NOT racing at the top of these groups.... basically he was running a pay for services business - promising connections and driver coaching if you could pay. In other words - this wasn’t him running a racing team with big time sponsors and if you were good enough you could get a seat in his cars. It was if you had pockets enough - you could pay to drive his cars. I’m only stating this here because you have to watch The Wizard of Oz - and be able to pull the curtain back.

What I’ve LIVED THRU is that he knows budget dirt track racing.... that doesn’t translate in to being a car builder - motor builder - guru that knows everything about every aspect of every car. Basically he knows about set up.... and what he doesn’t know he claims is “secret sauce” or some claim of stuff being “optimized”. He’s also a big time name dropper.... and uses that to his advantage - since the names are of people we’ll never meet or rub elbows with... so nobody will ever verify all these supposed connections.

I spent YEARS — not months — with him in my corner.... and spent a lot of time with him — and spent a lot of money with him. I can NOT recommend anyone doing business with him for anything.

[andrewb70]

Greg,

Please feel free to link any of the threads from Lat-g that you feel are relevant.

Andrew

[Greg Weld]

Thanks Andrew....

I have no time or “cycles” to spend on this bozo anymore.... I think most people on both Lat-G and Pro-Touring have read about, or are aware of, all the (or much of) the dumb stuff he’s done... builds he’s ruined... people he’s stolen from (in time AND $$$$)....

The one thing I would love everyone to learn from these (Prodigy and Secret Sauce) is to SPEAK UP WHEN YOU’RE NOT BEING TREATED WELL or getting the parts and quality you paid for.... Because one of two things will happen — the vendor will either man up and do right — or you’ll expose the bozos

[sheck44]

As above... if you own your own business the #1 RULE is NEVER over promise and under deliver, underpromise and overdeliver, if you don't you absolutely without question will fail

It's worked for me for 9 years now

Steve

[Greg Weld]

As above... if you own your own business the #1 RULE is NEVER over promise and under deliver, underpromise and overdeliver, if you don't you absolutely without question will fail

It's worked for me for 9 years now

Steve

Simply being honest also works.....

[sheck44]

LOL ... Greg that kind of goes without saying !!

Steve

[jaybee]

Well...that bankruptcy case puts things in a totally different light. Promising something entirely different, in an entirely different venue, with the same results.

[sccacuda]

I was able to get a copy of the email Ron sent out, and thought I would share it...with the appropriate translation.



I'm excited to announce I'm going to continue my business on a smaller scale, offering tech services & a full line of chassis, suspension & brakes.

Because the "larger" scale business is in bankruptcy

It will be just me. So I will be working with a smaller group of clients I chose to work with. Those of you that have worked with me for a few years, know I can be slow to respond as I get buried with projects. I'm going to take on less projects & work on improving my response time, but it still can take a week or so sometimes. Please be patient with me. If you need quicker responses, I'm probably not a good fit.

People just beating down the door to work with you, I bet. So if your lucky enough to be "chosen" by Ron, you'll be rewarded with one week response times when your issue comes up with his stuff. Wow, sounds great, sign me up

I'm not "open for business" yet. I still have to move & set up my inventory, as well as re-setup credit card processing. It will probably be the 2nd week of December before I'm "up & running".

Take this as he hasn't finished with the bankruptcy on the previous business. He got paid for parts he was drop shipping, but is not paying the vendors for the products he sold, instead filing bankruptcy. Needs to set up credit card processing in the new business name and start this all over again...

7 Key things coming:
1. I will be running "Holiday specials" in December & January. I'll email you once I'm "open for business" with what they are.

Will be from vendors he actually paid

2. No Workshop tour, trade shows or track displays. I hated being away from my family 12 times a year, so I'm eliminating those.

His sponsors paid him to maintain his sticky forums and to do the workshop. No more sponsors, means no more workshop, trade shows, track displays. Yeah, this was his decision...

3. I am launching my own blog & forum website where you can learn & ask tech questions online. I'll email you when it is "live."

He was removed as a forum sponsor by LateralG and Pro-Touring. Because he can no longer sell on these sites or get paid to maintain his forum stickies, he will just make his own. What a guy, just giving back...

4. Mid-January, I will update my online catalog to show we no longer sell engines or turn key cars. But we will continue to sell rolling chassis, build-your-own Track-Warriors, Clips, etc. Otherwise, my entire product line will be available.

This means because he didn't pay SDPC Raceshop for previous engines, had engines built for customers without the parts that were spec'd and paid for, no one will build or sell him engines. As to the no longer selling turn key cars, well, kinda built only one and it was a disaster.

5. I am adding a new line of suspension packages I call AutoX-Star, as well as a lower cost weld-on Track-Warrior front clip package.

This means his Howe copy stuff will only be twice as expensive than from other vendors, instead of three times more.

6. Also in the updated catalog will be a lot of new trick parts for building up your muscle car with factory frames & clips.

Brought to you by the same fab shop that built Greg Welds Dirt Missile...

7. I will be adding a ton of "Tech-Helpers" & better instructions to help with your build.

But do "tech-helpers" and instructions help when you screwed up the design originally. No amount of instructions or tech helpers would have helped with the mistakes you made on my parts


I hope you & your family have a wonderful Thanksgiving. Best wishes !!!

Ron Sutton

[Peter Mc Mahon]

Spot on Craig! You “optimized” it !

[raustinss]

Lmao there is "special sauce " all over that