Power Steering Choice, need advice

[TOlsenAK]

Happy Holidays to everyone,



Looking for some help, trying to decide what route to go on my 67 camaro build (https://www.pro-touring.com/threads/...uot-Herja-quot)

Running QA1 front end (upper/lower control arms, sway bar, and coils) with 2in drop spindles.

Will be running an LS1 or LS3 depending on what I can source.

Wondering what people's experiences are with that style of set up, debating the unisteer kit or something similar, or if I should just go with a Lee Performance quick ratio box. I've heard people talk about bump steer issues, but not 100% sure if I can go the rack and pinion route without dealing with that.

Thanks again for the help!

[Z06vet]

On a stock subframe, id stay away from a rack conversion. I've run several boxes in the past. Recently replaced an Iroc box with the DSE/turn one box. The difference in feel & tracking was night & day. I balked at the price for a while, but after driving with it, its worth the price. I have heard very good things about Lee performance, but have not used their box.

[CarlC]

Agreed on the rack. The results have not been good.

I've dealt with Lee's and the DSE box. Both are very good with excellent feel. Just be sure that all of the steering components are in good condition and that the alignment is correct. No box will fix problems associated with those issues.

Along with the box is the pump. They should be treated as a system. A mismatch of parts may result in poor performance.

[TOlsenAK]

Thanks for the input! I'm more and more leaning to going the DSE box, will be using all new components, any pump recommendations? will be running a 6.0L LS

[c4racer2]

I tried to source one of those boxes - Lee doesn't have any, DSE no longer sells the 600 boxes and Turn1 was on back-order.
Seems Delphi is out of business and there is no longer a reliable source of cases.

I ended up using a PSC Pro-touring unit, which has the same 12.7:1 gear that all these boxes do. Looks like a 670 case to me, but I'm no expert. Just going off visually it looks exactly like the box Turn1 sells (when they have them).

As for the pump - these boxes all work well with a stock GM type 2 pump or one set up to deliver the same pressure. I am going to run a KRC Power Steering elite-2 series pump, which is a GM type-2 size and output, but their own design. It's made for circle track and road race cars which are mostly running similar steering boxes to these 600 series boxes for our cars. The best feature is a replaceable valve that allows you to fine tune pressure to adjust feel to your liking. There are about 9 valve sizes available.

[c4racer2]

Update. PSC is a 700 Saginaw unit. New gear. Rebuilt case. .210 Tbar and 12.7:1 ratio.
Sweet mfg also makes a similar one sold my speedway motors and ridetech and others.
Pretty much what the circle track and road race crowd are running these days. Should work well.
600 Delphi gear might have slightly better on center but overall feel should be equivalent and that one saves 5lbs. Just hard to find these days and to me not really worth 50-100pct more $ than a nice 700 race oriented box.

[TOlsenAK]

c4racer2, thank you! probably the most in-depth response and basically answered everything I was thinking of for potential issues with the pictures. What linkage setup are you using? stock or one of the tru turn setups?

[c4racer2]

Stock. It’s a 2nd gen so regular front steer setup used up through 1992.

I have the car up and running now so I have some seat time. The steering is just incredible. The ratio is perfect. Razor sharp. Very precise. Zero slop. Absolutely no dead spot or issue with on center feel. Assist is right where I want it. I can feel every pebble in the road yet I can just dial in the required steering with absolute precision. It’s literally on par with the best late model muscle cars I’ve owned - CTSV, C4-5-6, 6th gen SS. Ok maybe not as good as a Porsche or BMW M car but it’s not far off that mark either. I honestly couldn’t ask for more.

No leaks no issues. All good ness

Well almost. Getting a squeal from the alternator belt. Nothing to do with PS but it’s annoying.
It’s always something that becomes your bane of existence until you solve it. I’ll figure it out.
Probably just need to wear the newness off the pulleys and it will be OK.

[c4racer2]

As for pump. Just get a type 2 pump and it will match any of these boxes quite nicely.
I picked the KRC because it has 9 levels of adjustability via a replaceable flow valve. But honestly the middle point is pretty damn good I doubt I will ever change it. Middle point is around 2 GPM. Although most pumps do not seem to show the flow info.

[David Pozzi]

Stock. It’s a 2nd gen so regular front steer setup used up through 1992.

I have the car up and running now so I have some seat time. The steering is just incredible. The ratio is perfect. Razor sharp. Very precise. Zero slop. Absolutely no dead spot or issue with on center feel. Assist is right where I want it. I can feel every pebble in the road yet I can just dial in the required steering with absolute precision. It’s literally on par with the best late model muscle cars I’ve owned - CTSV, C4-5-6, 6th gen SS. Ok maybe not as good as a Porsche or BMW M car but it’s not far off that mark either. I honestly couldn’t ask for more.

No leaks no issues. All good ness

Well almost. Getting a squeal from the alternator belt. Nothing to do with PS but it’s annoying.
It’s always something that becomes your bane of existence until you solve it. I’ll figure it out.
Probably just need to wear the newness off the pulleys and it will be OK.

Our farm had a bunch of Chevy pickups which used the same long water pump passenger side alternator drive system. From 1969 to 1987 GM used the same basic alternator mounting and drive. We often had belt slipping issues and it was always cropping up.

Here are some observations:

At startup the battery is slightly drained from cranking. It may be more drained if the vehicle has been sitting a long time, the lights were on or other accessories used to deplete the battery. The battery may be old and become more discharged than normal after cranking. When the engine starts, the alternator goes to full charge mode, which puts a big load on the pulley and belt.

Newer alternators make this worse due to their higher charging amp rating which creates more load.

The pulley drive system spins the alternator at very high rpm's, a small diameter alternator pulley is used to get this high ratio. - more load on the drive

There is not a lot of contact surface between the belt and pulley, it would be better if the belt had more degrees of wrap around the pulley. This is the main fault of this system: lack of wrap and small pulley diameter.

The small pulley wears out eventually, often the alternator is replaced but the old pulley is just swapped over. It's hard to see but the pulley can wear so it does not have the correct "V" angles. I have seen the pulley wear enough to allow the belt to bottom out in the grooves so the "V" is not grabbing much at all.

A slipping alternator belt can run down the battery as you drive, - if you are driving with your lights on. It happened to me in a 70 camaro. When I stopped for gas, it wouldn't restart.

I test the belt and pulley condition/tightness by putting my thumb on the alternator fan and pushing down firmly, (engine off). If the pulley slips on the belt, the belt is not tight enough, or the pulley and belt are worn. Keeping an eye on this whenever you check fluids can help you avoid trouble.

A larger pulley can be installed with a longer belt, and this greatly improves belt contact, with a slight reduction in rpm's, this RPM reduction helps reduce alternator inertia helping it follow the engine better. The Z/28 alternator pulley is great for this. Engines that rev quickly or to high RPM's should use it. I prefer the Gates belts.

[c4racer2]

This is not a V belt system. This is a custom circle track race setup by KRC. The main drive is a 6 rib serpentine belt. The alternator belt is a 3 rib serpentine.

Although to be fair this is typically used with a much larger pulley for race only use where idle doesn’t matter. I may up the pulley size. You are correct that the alternator also doesn’t help because it’s a newer cs130 with 140 amps. Currently I am driving the alternator 2.3:1 vs engine speed. I can drop that to 1.8:1 which is probably ok for a car like this. That would probably help a lot.

All brand new pulleys and Goodyear belts.

Thanks for the background info. That is helpful as this is a similar setup in some ways to the old style design. Although this should be good to 7K rpm. Haven’t tested that yet but these are run for hours on end in circle track cars. Yes with bigger pulley on alternator.

[c4racer2]

Oh looks like the next step up in pulley drops it to 1.6:1
With idle at 1K - alternator runs at 1600 rpm. May not turn on that low. Might work though. Some alternators do turn on that low. Output would be low but that’s ok. It’s a much bigger alternator than the car needs. But fans and fuel pump probably draw 40A at idle - maybe 10 for ignition. Not a huge number but not zero.

[c4racer2]

Actually found an article by powermaster and their one wire units like mine do turn on at 1600. And my idle speed is 1000-1100. So the 2.5” pulley may actually work. Wish they made a 2.25”. That would give me more margin. Might be worth a shot. Have a big deep cycle battery so that can handle things on its own for short periods. But this motor is pretty much never under 1000 rpm unless it’s off.