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    1. #441
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      Oct 2012
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      Kennewick, WA
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      259
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      Quote Originally Posted by SSLance View Post
      Good idea, I'll check for part numbers on all hoses then try to decipher fitting sizes from there. Thanks...
      You can reuse the fittings if they will work with your revised routing, just need new crimp sleeves.


    2. #442
      Join Date
      Oct 2018
      Location
      Phoenix, AZ
      Posts
      584
      Country Flag: United States
      Quick update,

      I got the Vintage Air AC charged and blowing cold. Honestly, I'm super impressed with all their documentation an the overall ease of installation. It is kinda weird to me now that I'm sitting in basically a racetruck with the windows up and cold air blowing. I could totally get used to this. The main area I deviated from the normal wiring on was passing compressor control through my Smartwire so the CANbus is signaling when the shutdown is, just like a modern production vehicle. I continue to be very impressed with how well the Smartwire can integrate into a build, streamlining the wiring.

      So with all that I need to run the ducts on the passenger side which prompted me to just finish that dash plate all together. Here is a cool startup pic for those that haven't seen it on social media.

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      It's basic and only includes what I need. Which is exactly what I was going for.

      Now I need to seal up a couple areas from leaking in hot air while driving and complete the windshield wiper/washer wiring and that will mean wiring is 100% done! Wait...not true. Andrew talked me into doing DBW, but that is plug 'n' play. More on that fun later.
      '95 F-150 track ready street beast
      Want more projects/photos? Check my Instagram

    3. #443
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      Oct 2018
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      Phoenix, AZ
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      This one is good news and bad news both. And maybe you guys can help.

      Let's start with the good.

      WE GOT A BUMPER!!! The aftermarket was a total bust so I started looking at alternative options. This "6.4 swap" is all the rage with the lifted trucks and I started thinking it might work for me too.

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      You do need totally different brackets, but it does fit decent. Obviously I'll be making filler panels for the giant holes, but it is way lighter than the original bumper so I'm feeling good about it all around. It's almost kinda weird to me seeing it with a bumper again.

      For the bad, I'm having problems keeping this thing cool now. I took it to get tacos last night after installing the bumper so I could feel the AC (which is AMAZING) and just drive the thing. The new foster kitty even kept an eye on things while the truck warmed up. We agreed that everything seemed perfect.

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      It was a short trip that normally has the truck see roughly 205 degrees of water temp at most. Last night it was above 210 fairly consistently, and even at 20mph in the neighborhood, the temp climbed to 220 degrees and didn't appear to be stopping there. Could my removing the expansion tank have made that much different with the added heat load from the AC? The condenser has always been there, but not in use. Any tips or suggestions on how some of you keep temps in check with Vintage Air?

      Other than that this truck is really coming together and I'm so excited to be only doing little things to refine it now. For the record, driving a race car/truck on the street with cold AC is the most strange and awesome thing!
      '95 F-150 track ready street beast
      Want more projects/photos? Check my Instagram

    4. #444
      Join Date
      Jan 2016
      Location
      Chino Valley, AZ
      Posts
      134
      Country Flag: United States
      Quote Originally Posted by Sbeck09 View Post
      For the bad, I'm having problems keeping this thing cool now. I took it to get tacos last night after installing the bumper so I could feel the AC (which is AMAZING) and just drive the thing. The new foster kitty even kept an eye on things while the truck warmed up. We agreed that everything seemed perfect.

      It was a short trip that normally has the truck see roughly 205 degrees of water temp at most. Last night it was above 210 fairly consistently, and even at 20mph in the neighborhood, the temp climbed to 220 degrees and didn't appear to be stopping there. Could my removing the expansion tank have made that much different with the added heat load from the AC? The condenser has always been there, but not in use. Any tips or suggestions on how some of you keep temps in check with Vintage Air?
      Thats weird because back a few posts ago you posted this:

      Quote Originally Posted by Sbeck09 View Post
      Took the truck to run a bunch of unimportant errands last Saturday and it performed fantastic! Cooling system easily handled mixed driving in 95 degree heat and the new mufflers don't really have much drone and really do calm the sound down all around.
      And I didn't see a post about removing the expansion tank between those two so I'm curious what changed.

      Couple of questions to get the troubleshooting started:
      • Do the fans turn on? They should be able to turn on at speeds below ~40mph IIRC.
      • Do the fans have multiple stages based on coolant temp?
      • Does it get cooler at speeds above 40mph? Sounds like you might not have driven that fast, but might as well ask.
      • That earlier post when it was running cool, was that pre-bumper? Perhaps the new bumper has something to do with your cooling issues. I know some cars are setup as bottom breathers (fox mustangs and c5+ corvettes, for example), haven't been paying attention enough to know which way your truck is set up.
      • Does turning off the AC cause it to cool down?
      • So if theres no expansion tank, what does the system do when it has excess fluid or fluid needs? OEMs have expansion tanks/catch cans (they are different) for a reason.
      84 Ford LTD Wagon
      05 Ford Excursion
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    5. #445
      Join Date
      Oct 2018
      Location
      Phoenix, AZ
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      All good questions.

      -Fans both work. I have them set to be on as-needed under 35mph. 1 fan is also programmed to come on as the trinary switch needs for AC.
      -They are single speed fans, but I have one set to come on 15 degrees before the other. First fan comes on at 190F. The suspicion is that they don't draw enough air through to keep up with the added demand from AC.
      -I only noticed coolant temps creeping up when I hit my neighborhood so that would cause me to believe it's more the fan than the actual cooling system. I can't go more than 25mph on my street due to speed bumps so definitely no natural airflow.
      -Earlier when it was running at a stable temp that was before AC charging and use or the bumper. Guess changing 2 things at once kinda shot me in the foot. These trucks were designed to draw air through the main grill and mine still does.
      -I didn't really drive without the AC to find out if that brings temps back down. That's mostly because it's unbearable to drive with our daily temperature at 110F+ right now. I guess I need to suck it up and test this.
      -The system holds about 3 gallons of water as is. I have a 1qt catch can that allows the overflow water to be sucked back in.

      Thanks for going over this with me. If you think of anything else I'm open to more ideas.
      '95 F-150 track ready street beast
      Want more projects/photos? Check my Instagram

    6. #446
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      Oct 2018
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      Phoenix, AZ
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      Went for another drive last night to try and verify some theories.

      -Temps rise like normal
      -As long as I'm driving before it hits about 190f everything seems to be stable even with AC on.
      -Water level in the radiator was totally fine.
      -Driving over 50mph seems to stabilize temps even with AC blasting. I'm sure ducting the front air through all the coolers would also help, but that's not number 1 on the list right now since we know it will cool the engine perfectly fine.
      -Turned AC off in the neighborhood and after a couple min with both fans on, it slowly started bringing the temps back down even only going 20mph. I'd say this is the good sign I was looking for.

      I also suspect my fully enclosed fan shroud doesn't help either and I've always had plans to fix that issue, but it really seems like a totally different fan setup that draws way more air is what I need. Andrew suggested the C7 corvette fan since it is pwm controlled and around 70A of power or something crazy. If you guys can think of anything else to check or try let me know. I have just over a month until the Pro Touring Truck Shootout in Bowling Green, KY so the pressure is on.
      '95 F-150 track ready street beast
      Want more projects/photos? Check my Instagram

    7. #447
      Join Date
      Mar 2014
      Location
      Yuma, AZ
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      635
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      What brand fans are you running? I've talked to a bunch of cooling people and you'd be surprised how many bad electric fans are out there. A lot of the CFM ratings advertised are with the fan free spinning with no restriction in front of it. Most fans can only do a fraction of their advertised CFM rating once they have resistance (AKA radiator, condenser, etc...) in front of them. SPAL fans will pretty much always meet their rated CFM even with a rad, Maradyne and Derale are very close as well. Other brands can be really bad (like less than 50% advertised CFM).

      Also, what coolant are you running? Mix ratios can play a big role in cooling capacity. Also what temp thermostat?

      A fully enclosed fan shroud is not a completely bad thing, but can be fixed. When you are moving slow you want as much air as possible going through the core to exchange the heat. The full shroud lets the fans pull all the air they can through the core. Once you get to higher speeds (40+) then the fans cannot create more airflow than is coming through the rad and things change. Since the fans cannot be "pushed" faster than they are commanded to run they can block airflow. There are two easy ways to remedy this, putting trapdoors in the shroud, or turning the fans off allowing them to freewheel. Both of those options allow more airflow through the rad at high speeds and keep things cool. Once you slow down and the fans are not blocking airflow the trapdoors close and all air is sent through the core (or fans are turned back on). Most modern OEMs use one or both of the things mentioned above to help manage temps.

      Your issue seems to be more with the low speed than the high speed since it seems to cool at normal road speeds. A/C does put a lot of head into the cooling system and can he hard to dissipate quickly. What brand rad and how many cores?

      If you have more questions feel free to text me (480-440-6202), always willing to help. I've spent a lot of time at work with thermal engineers ( I work for GM at the Desert Proving Grounds lol).
      Nelson
      1969 Chevelle "Cone Smasher" Family Project
      https://www.pro-touring.com/threads/...uot?highlight=

      1984 "Rustang" GT, 5.0, 5 Speed Project
      https://www.pro-touring.com/threads/...T-(Slow-Build)

    8. #448
      Join Date
      Jan 2016
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      Chino Valley, AZ
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      Reading through your notes and WallaceMFG's comments, I'm thinking your next step is here:

      Quote Originally Posted by Sbeck09 View Post
      1 fan is also programmed to come on as the trinary switch needs for AC.
      Kick both fans on when the AC is on and see what happens. It seems pretty obvious its a low-speed AC-on only issue.
      84 Ford LTD Wagon
      05 Ford Excursion
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    9. #449
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      Oct 2018
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      Phoenix, AZ
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      I appreciate you helping.

      My new radiator came as a "kit" with the radiator, shroud, and 2 14" puller fans. I'm guessing these are no-name china special fans by the look at feel of them. This also is why I am convinced I might just not have enough airflow at low speed because they can't pull air through 3 layers of coolers. I have a Champion 4 row radiator, the largest Vintage Air condenser they offer, and the Earl's power steering and oil coolers in front of that. So there is definitely some heavy heat loads coming through when everything is at operating temp.

      With road racing cars we never ran shrouds, only a Spal fan strapped to the back of the radiator to allow the best airflow possible. I actually have the rubber flaps to vent my current shroud at speed, but it seems like switching fans to a single, larger fan with pwm control would better meet the need anyway. For my current setup I have the fans programmed to shut off if my speed is above 35mph. I also staggered their on-points, but have been using my override button lately which runs them both. I guess I never realized how much heat a functioning AC condenser adds to an already hot system. I can call this another lesson learned.

      I'll shoot you a text, thanks so much for that!
      '95 F-150 track ready street beast
      Want more projects/photos? Check my Instagram

    10. #450
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      Jan 2016
      Location
      Chino Valley, AZ
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      I would look into OEM fans to replace the twin aftermarket. I have the V6 Contour dual fan setup on my fox and it MOVES air at the "high" setting.
      84 Ford LTD Wagon
      05 Ford Excursion
      Instagram

    11. #451
      Join Date
      Mar 2014
      Location
      Yuma, AZ
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      635
      Country Flag: United States
      No problem, do my best to help. Living in AZ you can't skimp on cooling or you can't drive your cars 8 months out of the year haha.

      I agree with Frink84, try wiring up both of your fans to come on with the A/C and see what that gets you. The fans are certainly suspect at this point since from your descriptions your issues don't start until you slow down. Might need to go with some known good brand fans (SPAL or Maradyne) to get more airflow. Seems like you have the rest of the shroud setup fine with the flaps and road speed shutoffs.

      pwm controllers are definitely good, we run them on both our cars and they work great. I personally don't really like fans without shrouds for street cars, but I know there are some good ones out there. I think going to a single fan without shroud in this case might hurt you rather than help you street driving unless the fan can move a ridiculous amount of air.

      Just some food for thought, let us know if you find anything.
      Nelson
      1969 Chevelle "Cone Smasher" Family Project
      https://www.pro-touring.com/threads/...uot?highlight=

      1984 "Rustang" GT, 5.0, 5 Speed Project
      https://www.pro-touring.com/threads/...T-(Slow-Build)

    12. #452
      Join Date
      Oct 2018
      Location
      Phoenix, AZ
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      Yeah AZ definitely puts cooling systems on notice. I had some fights with my E36 back when I first moved here and installed a stroker motor. Ironically it was mainly a cooling fan issue back then too. One day maybe I'll learn to go for a good fan from day one. haha

      With Andrew's direct guidance I just ordered the C7 Corvette OEM fan. It is a 500w (~50a) brushless motor and we will use my Holley Dominator ECU to do pwm control. It also has the integrated flaps that open at speed and is designed for a radiator core roughly the same size so this should be the ticket. Plus it's pretty cost effective at only $278 brand new. It's basically the more modern version of the Contour fan swap. Which is also ironic to me since the Contour was a TERRIBLE car. We had 2 in the family back when they were in production and both spent more time getting repaired than in the driveway.

      From here if we are still fighting temps I'll add an expansion tank back into the system, but as a real swirl pot instead of a holding tank. I really don't think I'll need to do this.
      '95 F-150 track ready street beast
      Want more projects/photos? Check my Instagram

    13. #453
      Join Date
      Aug 2012
      Location
      Peoria, AZ
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      1,758
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      The fans on my car came from a Dodge Intrepid, another HORRIBLE car...
      Lance
      1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car

    14. #454
      Join Date
      Oct 2012
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      118
      Country Flag: United States
      I had a cooling issue on my 85 Mustang when I switched over to a contour fan. The car would overheat at low speed or when sitting. I ended up adding extra foam around the edges of the fan shroud and that eliminated the overheating. The gaps were small, i would say around a quarter inch or less, just enough to cause a problem.
      Eddie

    15. #455
      Join Date
      Aug 2016
      Location
      Waconia, MN
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      113
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      I'll echo what blade said above. Proper shrouding can make a HUGE difference in cooling.
      Getting every bit of air possible through the radiator instead of around it is the goal.
      This is especially important at low speeds when you don't have any "ram air" from forward motion, and just relying on your fans.

      I'm a little late to the "CONGRATS! party" but both the truck and the new property/shop look great.

      Hopefully I will eventually join the ranks of "race truck with A/C" one of these years.
      Definitely have been living vicariously through your build. Great work!

    16. #456
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      Quote Originally Posted by blade View Post
      I had a cooling issue on my 85 Mustang when I switched over to a contour fan. The car would overheat at low speed or when sitting. I ended up adding extra foam around the edges of the fan shroud and that eliminated the overheating. The gaps were small, i would say around a quarter inch or less, just enough to cause a problem.
      Quote Originally Posted by SonomaZ View Post
      I'll echo what blade said above. Proper shrouding can make a HUGE difference in cooling.
      Getting every bit of air possible through the radiator instead of around it is the goal.
      This is especially important at low speeds when you don't have any "ram air" from forward motion, and just relying on your fans.

      I'm a little late to the "CONGRATS! party" but both the truck and the new property/shop look great.

      Hopefully I will eventually join the ranks of "race truck with A/C" one of these years.
      Definitely have been living vicariously through your build. Great work!
      Thank you both for the insight. I definitely need to attack the ducting on the nose of this truck. It was one of those things that got ignored in order to get the truck moving. I didn't think a 1/4" gap would matter that much, but I suppose it does and I will be sure to keep everything tight. The plan is to block any unused openings and fully duct any necessary openings on the front of the truck. I know that will really help when moving. My biggest airflow fail is with the new bumper. The lower portion is stirring up incoming air and letting it run under the truck rather than up to the radiator. That will be a pretty easy fix.

      And thanks for the kind words! It's still a bit odd to me to have a roll cage with harnesses, but be totally comfy inside on a 110 degree day. I highly recommend it!
      '95 F-150 track ready street beast
      Want more projects/photos? Check my Instagram

    17. #457
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      Oct 2018
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      Phoenix, AZ
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      Ok a few things going on. First up, TIRES!! I have needed tires since I bought these Roush 18x10 wheels over a year ago, but never took the time to do it. The BFGs that were already mounted held air great, but were 12 years old and had seen some time in the brutal AZ sun so they were rock hard. While this allowed for entertaining wheel spin on command it doesn't really help anything when you're trying to make a truck handle like a sports car. So to get me by I found a great deal on some Falken Azenis tires in a 285/35/18.

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      Side note: this is still one of my favorite views of the truck. I love seeing that IRS in there with fresh paint and all the billet upgrades. No regrets on doing the work, which wasn't even that bad.

      Once I purchase real 18x11 wheels in the correct offset for my setup I will move to a 315 BFG Rival. Already the truck is a different animal being able to hook in 2nd gear when it just spun like crazy before. I'm looking for some local events asap to see how these do. The Pro Touring Truck Shootout is also still on my agenda in 1 month (YIKES!) but I'm watching carefully due to a number of guys having already pulled out.

      Somehow I forgot to share with you all that I finally got a bumper too! What a mess it has been to avoid the 70lbs beast that was originally on these trucks. This is known as the 6.4 swap due to the bumper being from the 2008-10 F250. Not hard at all to install and seriously looks right at home on this old truck. Don't worry, it will get the big openings closed/ducted along with some trim to actually look right. I'm just excited that it looks like a complete truck now.

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      Then back to the cooling struggles I've had at low speed. Andrew suggested a real pwm fan setup and specifically the C7 Corvette because the controller is integrated and it's a genuine Spal fan for under $300. Hard to argue with that when we know my dual 11" no-name fans and enclosed aluminum shroud are not doing the job. I've wanted to leverage the PWM capabilities of the Holley EFI since I installed it anyway. Win-win.

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      Yes I'm well aware that this does not cover the entire core. It doesn't in the Corvette it was designed for either. Even I had to be reminded that this fan has been successfully cooling 700-800hp supercharged C7s for years in traffic with AC (heat soak for days). I imagine it will do well for my little 520hp small block. Just look at that 8ga wiring to power the 500w this thing demands at full rip! If we still see the need for more cooling under 30mph the next step is the 850w CTS-V fan that is nearly the same size radiator core. After we test this evening I'll go beat on the truck tomorrow and see how it does before reporting back.
      '95 F-150 track ready street beast
      Want more projects/photos? Check my Instagram

    18. #458
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      Oct 2018
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      Phoenix, AZ
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      My hat is off to Andrew. He knocked it out of the park on this one! Yesterday afternoon we jumped online together and he was able to program the new fan while I made sure everything was wired correctly and ready to test. After we walked through some manual tests that went very well, I fired up the truck and brought it up to operating temperature. Then I turned on the AC to about 60% fan speed and just let the truck idle in about 105 degree heat. Previously the little fans I had would quickly become a problem allowing the water temps to sail past 220 if I let it, but this time it was an entirely different story. The new fan never went past 60% speed and easily held the water temps from 185 to 189. It's that smooth at controlling temps! My mind is blown and I'm excited to drive this truck again without stressing every time I have to slow down.

      I really can't say enough good things about working with Andrew throughout this project and I would HIGHLY recommend his services if you have a Holley EFI system.
      '95 F-150 track ready street beast
      Want more projects/photos? Check my Instagram

    19. #459
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      Aug 2004
      Location
      San Antonio, Tx
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      1,190
      Sorry I didn't come visit this thread again sooner or I would have told you to skip the C7 fan and go CTS-V. The C7 fan is a 600w 16" fan. The CTS-V fan is 850w and 19" and comes in a bigger shroud that would have fit your radiator better and has flap doors to let air out when driving and the fan isn't needed. It is a direct plug and play replacement electrical wise for a C7 fan if you come across one it might be worth looking into. New they are like $330.

      That is a C7 radiator under the fan to give you an idea how much bigger it is.


      Instagram: CamaroAJ


    20. #460
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      Oct 2018
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      Quote Originally Posted by CamaroAJ View Post
      Sorry I didn't come visit this thread again sooner or I would have told you to skip the C7 fan and go CTS-V. The C7 fan is a 600w 16" fan. The CTS-V fan is 850w and 19" and comes in a bigger shroud that would have fit your radiator better and has flap doors to let air out when driving and the fan isn't needed. It is a direct plug and play replacement electrical wise for a C7 fan if you come across one it might be worth looking into. New they are like $330.
      Funny you mention this, and thank you for bringing it up. Andrew and I went back and forth for almost half a day when he told me this monster existed. I had just received the C7 fan and I was concerned the smaller shroud wouldn't be enough. I came within 30 seconds of returning the C7 fan in favor of the CTS-V unit. They both offer the same features (Spal brand, speed flaps, plug, low price, etc.), but the CTS-V fan definitely comes very close to being a perfect fit for my radiator core. Had I known about it up front I would have easily gone with that. Maybe down the line I'll swap if too good of a deal comes up, but this C7 fan has already been VERY impressive. I did make sure to leave enough length on my wires to reach just in case.

      The other day I drove around town for food and had the AC blasting on a 111 degree day. The highest temp I saw the entire time was 197 and it came straight back to average 193-195 for the rest of the drive. Fan speed still never went over 65%. These modern pwm controlled fans are incredibly good at maintaining stable temps! I don't baby this thing when I take it out either.
      '95 F-150 track ready street beast
      Want more projects/photos? Check my Instagram

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