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    1. #81
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      Oct 2018
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      Phoenix, AZ
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      I went and picked up 1.5 and 1.25 DOM tubing along with a big sheet of 1/4" steel so I can get this front suspension done. I'm so over thinking about it. Haha.

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      I found some PVC and fittings around the house so I decided to do a VERY rough layout of what I had in mind. What do you guys think of the idea? Ignore the exact angles and lengths. I'm a visual guy so I had to just see something there.

      That leads me to needing some input. Again. If I bend the main cross bar of this new subframe I loose about 3" of width on each side. So my lower control arm mounts would be long. This seems weaker in my mind. I was just thinking that I could miter it all together instead and use gussets at the joints. Wouldn't that be more than strong enough for a 3600 ish pound truck on sticky 315s?

      Throw in your ideas here. I'm putting something together this weekend darn it! Right or wrong. Haha. I need to keep moving so I can get motor and tranny mounts done before the end of the month.

      '95 F-150 track ready street beast
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    2. #82
      Join Date
      Mar 2018
      Location
      la mesa, CA
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      237
      Personally, I would rather see one tube bent and longer tabes than a miter cut and joined part.

      That being said if you had a longer tab and were worried about it moving add some gussets, reinforcements, and support tubes. I roll back to my off-road days and spend my time looking at trophy trucks and class 1 cars. if you have access to a plasma table or just a cutter you could fab some super strong crossmember out of 3/16 MS and incorperate the pick ups for your suspension. it wouldnt move at all. the frame will move before that will.

      Just because someone has not done it on a autox or road car build doesn't mean it can't be done.

      Just my few pennies in thoughts.
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    3. #83
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      Oct 2018
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      I don't disagree at all that 1 bent tube would be nicer than 3 mitered together. Maybe I'm just being lazy, but I spent 2 hours trying to do the math on the bends last night and I still didn't get it right. Haha.

      To your point about the tabs, maybe I should bend it narrow and make longer tabs from that. Having some kind of structure to measure from would be MUCH easier. That's the real hurdle for me. There isn't really any place to accurately measure without anything between the frame rails right now.

      The thought about making it out of plate like a TT did start to creep into my mind too, but I think the tubing will be easier in the end. Probably cheaper too. Would be nice to have all the pivot points built in though.

      Any tips on measuring this better?
      '95 F-150 track ready street beast
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    4. #84
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      Mar 2018
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      la mesa, CA
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      Quote Originally Posted by Sbeck09 View Post
      I don't disagree at all that 1 bent tube would be nicer than 3 mitered together. Maybe I'm just being lazy, but I spent 2 hours trying to do the math on the bends last night and I still didn't get it right. Haha.

      To your point about the tabs, maybe I should bend it narrow and make longer tabs from that. Having some kind of structure to measure from would be MUCH easier. That's the real hurdle for me. There isn't really any place to accurately measure without anything between the frame rails right now.

      The thought about making it out of plate like a TT did start to creep into my mind too, but I think the tubing will be easier in the end. Probably cheaper too. Would be nice to have all the pivot points built in though.

      Any tips on measuring this better?
      Disclaimer I am not a trained professional

      What are you trying to locate?

      I would think you could tack a couple tubes across the frame, use the existing holes and cross measure to find the center and use that as a reference point.
      And measure 20 times. And then check a couple more times.

      I suffer from analysis paralysis.
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    5. #85
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      Oct 2018
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      That's exactly what I am suffering from right now. I know enough that if I screw up the measurements here it will ruin the handling and ability to properly align. Good idea to tack in some perfectly straight tubes to locate off of. That would probably be just enough for me to feel good about the measurements.

      Thanks!!!
      '95 F-150 track ready street beast
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    6. #86
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      Mar 2018
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      la mesa, CA
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      Quote Originally Posted by Sbeck09 View Post
      That's exactly what I am suffering from right now. I know enough that if I screw up the measurements here it will ruin the handling and ability to properly align. Good idea to tack in some perfectly straight tubes to locate off of. That would probably be just enough for me to feel good about the measurements.

      Thanks!!!
      So if I recall industry standards was something like a 1/8” I am not okay with that much. But measurements of my car were way more out of square than that. It’s stock and never crashed.

      The holes on your frame and great location point to start with.
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    7. #87
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      Oct 2018
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      Phoenix, AZ
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      Fascinating. I've never seen any kind of numbers like that so thanks for sharing! I'm definitely trying to keep it all tighter than that, but will all the adjustments I'm building in I'll probably be fine. If not I guess I'll build it all again. Haha.

      I found 3 different holes that match on each frame rail. That should be enough to get me going. Thanks to you, the new plan is the use two layers of steel plate to form a main crossmember with a tube on each side running back to tie it in. I'll try to keep this updated as I go along this weekend. I should make way more sense when I post photos.
      '95 F-150 track ready street beast
      Want more projects/photos? Check my Instagram

    8. #88
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      Mar 2018
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      la mesa, CA
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      Quote Originally Posted by Sbeck09 View Post
      Fascinating. I've never seen any kind of numbers like that so thanks for sharing! I'm definitely trying to keep it all tighter than that, but will all the adjustments I'm building in I'll probably be fine. If not I guess I'll build it all again. Haha.

      I found 3 different holes that match on each frame rail. That should be enough to get me going. Thanks to you, the new plan is the use two layers of steel plate to form a main crossmember with a tube on each side running back to tie it in. I'll try to keep this updated as I go along this weekend. I should make way more sense when I post photos.
      You can use the body mount holes if they are in the same place as well.
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    9. #89
      Join Date
      Aug 2012
      Location
      Peoria, AZ
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      1,758
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      The front right lower control arm mount on my car was 3/16" up on my car when I blue printed all the pivot points on it. Ron showed on Percormanve Trends how much that changed how each lower control arm moved on different arcs in compression. I fixed it bit also made many other changes at the same time so cant say exactly how much difference that one correction made.

      I also commensurate with the difficultly in making measurements on a blank slate. I had the same difficulties when trying to place the sway bar end link tabs on my lower control arms in a way to prevent bind thru full travel range. Took me two trys to get them right.
      Lance
      1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car

    10. #90
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      Oct 2018
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      Quote Originally Posted by Project Bike Truck View Post
      You can use the body mount holes if they are in the same place as well.
      Good idea. I believe the front cab mounts are identical according to the OEM spec sheet. I'll double check.

      Quote Originally Posted by SSLance View Post
      I also commensurate with the difficultly in making measurements on a blank slate. I had the same difficulties when trying to place the sway bar end link tabs on my lower control arms in a way to prevent bind thru full travel range. Took me two trys to get them right.
      That may very well be what I end up doing. I couldn't even make good use of that program without measurements to plug yet. I figure I'll build the main structure this weekend and plug in a few numbers in based on that. Hopefully I'm not totally screwing the geometry. Haha. I'm taking idea from Griggs racing and Factory Five among others.
      '95 F-150 track ready street beast
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    11. #91
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      Oct 2018
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      I feel like today's progress is minimal given the amount of hours that it took, but at least I am executing on a plan.

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      Thanks for the idea for adding a piece of metal across. I had this extra 1 inch angle iron that was perfectly straight. A few solid tacks later and it made a perfect center line. Can't believe this didn't cross my mind before. SOLID tip.

      Funny thing about finding the center line on this truck...the factory beams aren't perfectly in line so instead I am measuring the center on the wheel opening as best I can. If it's off a few mm in the end I'll use some of the adjustments to make it right without killing my geometry.

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      This is the final cardboard template for the main cross member. It's 2 inches in width all the way around and cut from a sheet of 1/4" steel. There will actually be 2 of these that sandwich the front lower control arm joints. I'll add thinner steel plate in between and then box it all in. Should be stupid strong. Just like a Trophy Truck.

      I got it all marked in silver sharpie and borrowed my neighbor's plasma cutter, but a rain storm blew in from CA so I had to pack it up for the day (ugh). Hopefully I can get this cut tomorrow. I'm excited to see it in place...FINALLY.

      Thank you guys for your input. It's been invaluable.
      '95 F-150 track ready street beast
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    12. #92
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      Oct 2018
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      Today I actually feel accomplished. By the time I got moving this morning the rain had cleared and it was a really nice day. So I went right outside and fired up the plasma.

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      Here is the two main parts of the cross member just after grinding the slag off. Ignore the little triangle things. That's just for a centering line I made. I'll be cutting those off as soon as it's actually in the truck. I also realized right after that I needed bolts so I went and grabbed Grade 8 zinc coated bolts. Didn't realize how expensive big bolts are.

      I forgot to take a picture of when I bolted them together and ground the edges to exactly the same. It's not that exciting. Grinding a 1/2" of steel wore out my hand.

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      I had a hell of a time drilling those holes perfectly, but when I clamped this in it was all worth it. Feels AMAZING seeing this in place. I'll tack it in and start boxing together hopefully tomorrow. I ran out of time today. Remember that I'm adding material inside and around so that gap won't be there and it won't just be hollow. I can't wait to see the end product! What do you guys think? Btw, the bottom of this is exactly 1" higher than the lowest point on the frame and I should have miles of room to the oil plan.

      Final boxing and lower control arms to come next! And if any of you get the terrible idea to try building an OBS Ford too, I am keeping all my templates. So yes, I could reproduce this setup again if it really works.
      '95 F-150 track ready street beast
      Want more projects/photos? Check my Instagram

    13. #93
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      Mar 2018
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      la mesa, CA
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      237
      Quote Originally Posted by Sbeck09 View Post
      Today I actually feel accomplished. By the time I got moving this morning the rain had cleared and it was a really nice day. So I went right outside and fired up the plasma.

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      Here is the two main parts of the cross member just after grinding the slag off. Ignore the little triangle things. That's just for a centering line I made. I'll be cutting those off as soon as it's actually in the truck. I also realized right after that I needed bolts so I went and grabbed Grade 8 zinc coated bolts. Didn't realize how expensive big bolts are.

      I forgot to take a picture of when I bolted them together and ground the edges to exactly the same. It's not that exciting. Grinding a 1/2" of steel wore out my hand.

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      I had a hell of a time drilling those holes perfectly, but when I clamped this in it was all worth it. Feels AMAZING seeing this in place. I'll tack it in and start boxing together hopefully tomorrow. I ran out of time today. Remember that I'm adding material inside and around so that gap won't be there and it won't just be hollow. I can't wait to see the end product! What do you guys think? Btw, the bottom of this is exactly 1" higher than the lowest point on the frame and I should have miles of room to the oil plan.

      Final boxing and lower control arms to come next! And if any of you get the terrible idea to try building an OBS Ford too, I am keeping all my templates. So yes, I could reproduce this setup again if it really works.
      I’ll say this much 1/4 plate you will be able to smash through just about anything and it won’t move.

      Are you using something thinner for the boxing part?

      Are you boxing the frame rails?
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    14. #94
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      Oct 2018
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      Phoenix, AZ
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      Yes and yes. The boxing plate is wayyyy thinner. I'll measure it when I cut some.

      With a low ride height and street driving I know there is a very good risk of hitting something. In my former BMW track car, I had to replace a bent sub frame thanks to a fuel station storage tank cap that was not down all the way. Seriously. Not a happy day. And that car wasn't slammed either. That's why I'm not worried about the few extra pounds for the additional rigidity. Plus these are soft, flexible frames so I'm trying to help reduce that.

      Is this even close to what you were expecting when you suggested this method?
      '95 F-150 track ready street beast
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    15. #95
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      Mar 2018
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      Quote Originally Posted by Sbeck09 View Post
      Yes and yes. The boxing plate is wayyyy thinner. I'll measure it when I cut some.

      With a low ride height and street driving I know there is a very good risk of hitting something. In my former BMW track car, I had to replace a bent sub frame thanks to a fuel station storage tank cap that was not down all the way. Seriously. Not a happy day. And that car wasn't slammed either. That's why I'm not worried about the few extra pounds for the additional rigidity. Plus these are soft, flexible frames so I'm trying to help reduce that.

      Is this even close to what you were expecting when you suggested this method?
      Yep!
      When I do plate stuff I drop the filler piece inset 3/8's to allow for welding and such. I would (not a pro) think that you should box the hell out of the frame and weld it in sections and slowly to prevent warping. That crossmember is going to make it very stiff and right after it I (again not a pro) would thing the frame will flex like crazy.

      have I said how stoked I am on this build!
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    16. #96
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      Oct 2018
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      Phoenix, AZ
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      I was going to bevel all the edges so I can grind it smooth after welding and make it look like one piece without making the joints weak. And I agree that I need to box the frame in sections. I figured that would be easier anyway since it's not just a straight rail anyway so it kinda works out.

      I'm going to also add an X-brace in the middle once I mock up the motor/tans mounts. That should help kill the bulk of the excessive flex left. Plus the roll cage will help.

      Bad news was delivered by the engine builder earlier....Scat pushed my crank back order out another month. So now no crank until mid February. Annoying, but there isn't a good alternative and I have plenty to do anyway. I'll just try to prep everything else so I can drop it in and wire.
      '95 F-150 track ready street beast
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    17. #97
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      Oct 2018
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      Well I had to wait all week to get more time to work on this front suspension, but I made sure I got stuff done today. It's really starting to come together.

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      This is the main part of the lower control arm for each side. I'm missing pieces from QA1 due to a back-order still, but they should get here this week. Then I can finish the other half of the lowers and make the whole upper arm for each side. I'm hoping this is way overbuilt. Certainly looks the part.

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      Here was the steering rack going in. Took me a while to position it right and get the mounts lined up, but that's kinda how all this suspension has gone. Measure, move, measure, move a little more, repeat 50x. Takes longer to measure where everything goes than it does for me to make the mounts.

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      Here you can see the beefy tabs that hold the rack and the 1/8" plate that I formed into a pocket for the lower heims. I'm really happy with how this is all going. I'll leave everything tacked until it's all 100% together. Then I'll disassemble, finish weld, and paint all of it. I have come to really enjoy taking it all apart at that point because you always notice where something is hard to remove so it can be redesigned then. I want this to be super simple to replace pieces while laying in a parking lot if I have to. Perfect example is that bolt. It hit the rack before it comes out so I already flipped it around.

      The only real issue that popped up was I tried to shorten each control arm slightly to shrink the track width since the S197 mustang is wide. I might not have enough adjustment in the tie rods for a 1/2" on each side. Worst case I'll make slightly longer arms. What do you guys think?
      '95 F-150 track ready street beast
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    18. #98
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      Aug 2014
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      Quote Originally Posted by Sbeck09 View Post
      What do you guys think?
      I think I'm waaay overthinking rebuilding the A-pillar inner structure on my S10. lol

      Seriously, Seeing the progress some of you guys are making on way more complicated (and important)
      parts of your builds makes me want to get out in the garage (once it is over 32 degrees.) lol

      Could you switch to different spindles, something that isn't as wide, and still use the S197 parts?
      Like Fox or SN95? Would they allow you to use the S197 brakes? I'm not a Mustang guy, so I have no idea.

      Jay

    19. #99
      Join Date
      Oct 2018
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      Phoenix, AZ
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      Progress. What a great word you used there. I think I'm going to redo my lower control arms today. 1 step forward and 2 steps back.

      Funny you bring up a different 'stang. I read an interview with a guy from Griggs racing talking about how they found the SN95 spindles to be stronger and the SN95 steering rack to be better in general. Had I found this before I bought S197 parts I would have gone that route regardless. Hindsight is 20/20. I'm not sure that chasing those parts down at this point is worth it for me. On top of that I'm not totally sure that it is really any more narrow, but I'm not standing here measuring either.

      For brakes, no, I don't believe any of the parts cross over without special brackets. There is probably a way though.

      Don't sweat spending time to make the body right. I can afford to spend extra time here since I started with an AZ truck. We don't know what anything beyond surface rust looks like. Haha. And don't forget that I still have to do the rear and the entire interior, wiring, bracing.....jesus this list isn't shrinking. And to think that I still expect to start it up in March.
      '95 F-150 track ready street beast
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    20. #100
      Join Date
      Mar 2014
      Location
      Yuma, AZ
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      635
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      SN95 steering racks are pretty easy to come by, same with the spindles. They were available from 94-04, so lots to choose from. The nice part of SN95 rack is that the inner & outer tie rods can be swapped for Fox Body parts that are narrower. So if SN95 was still too wide for you, Fox could be used. I have more info if you need it on this subject.

      Spindles are different for 94 & 95, 96-04 are all the same and easy to find. Lots of brake kits are readily available. I got SN95 spindles for $40 each for my Fox from a salvage yard.

      Easy way to get a 03-04 Cobra rack:
      http://www.svtperformance.com/thread...get-it.680429/

      Just some food for thought. Progress looks good!
      Nelson
      1969 Chevelle "Cone Smasher" Family Project
      https://www.pro-touring.com/threads/...uot?highlight=

      1984 "Rustang" GT, 5.0, 5 Speed Project
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