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    1. #21
      Join Date
      Sep 2010
      Location
      Beach Park IL
      Posts
      2,838
      Country Flag: United States
      Yes, E on the street, autocross, light track days, everything. I never change them. They are dirty, if that bothers you look elsewhere. The first stop is the same way, uninspiring.

      I've posted this elsewhere but here are my thought on brakes in general. You need friction _and_ pressure........or a lot of one or the other.

      On a street car, the best way to do it is with pressure. You get quiet, clean pads, long life, and low maintenance......but you need that booster to generate the pressure it takes to generate the stopping force that we want.

      You can do it with friction. There are pads the have great cold bite, but they will fail on track. Great track pads will kill rotors on the street.....when theyre cold, there is no friction, they are just a grinder. They are squeaky, dusty, and some last a ridiculously short time in the name of saving the rotor......carbotech comes to mind here. I prefer the ability to modulate the brakes here, boosted systems can be very hard to drive fast and I tend to be abrupt with my movements, compunding the problem.

      Making manual brakes work is the fine art of balancing the two to get the best combination of usability, maintenance levels, cost, and feel. For you.

      There are so many factors at play during this balancing act the rigidity of the caliper and it's mounts, the rigidity of the pedal assembly, rotor and pad material, proper bed in, personal preference, working with stock parameters for pedals and master cylinders, etc, etc.

      There is no magic bullet, just a bunch of anecdotes. I don't think the E pads will move the needle enough for the OP but they worked great for me. On this application. At this point in my life.
      Donny

      Support your local hot rod shop!

    2. #22
      Join Date
      Jun 2010
      Location
      Deployed
      Posts
      3,280
      Country Flag: United States
      Knowing I’m not the expert...this is why I raise an eyebrow when people want to convert their power brake system to a manual set-up. I think people don’t sit and realize why power assist brakes were developed and why all modern cars use the system. Manual brake system need effort to stop your car! I know some people want it for “better feedback”, but manual brakes are not good for your average person. Obviously the OP can see the drastic difference between a modern power system and manual brakes, but that all power assist systems...not just new cars. On my 70 with a 81 booster and Baers, I think the brakes are equally comparable to all modern cars I have driven. In fact I just upgraded to DSEs corvette booster.
      1970 Camaro/DSE build


      Are you driver enough? Maybe....come on blue!
      https://www.pro-touring.com/threads/...71#post1147371

    3. #23
      Join Date
      Apr 2010
      Location
      Jersey Shore
      Posts
      695
      Country Flag: United States
      Quote Originally Posted by badazz81z28 View Post
      Knowing I’m not the expert...this is why I raise an eyebrow when people want to convert their power brake system to a manual set-up. I think people don’t sit and realize why power assist brakes were developed and why all modern cars use the system. Manual brake system need effort to stop your car! I know some people want it for “better feedback”, but manual brakes are not good for your average person. Obviously the OP can see the drastic difference between a modern power system and manual brakes, but that all power assist systems...not just new cars. On my 70 with a 81 booster and Baers, I think the brakes are equally comparable to all modern cars I have driven. In fact I just upgraded to DSEs corvette booster.
      If you do more than just spirited street driving, once you drive a properly set up (to your taste!!) manual brake system... you wouldnt want to go back to power assist.
      -Chris
      '69 Corvette
      '55 Chevy Hardtop
      AutoWorks Middletown, NJ
      @autoworksnj for corvette and shop car pics
      https://www.pro-touring.com/showthre...e-Build-Thread

    4. #24
      Join Date
      Oct 2018
      Location
      San Jose, CA
      Posts
      523
      I agree. Manual can be as good or better than power but it takes a lot more effort to get it right where power is a lot more forgiving to improper design.

      Also don’t forget the main reason some of us have to run manual is not all engines make enough vacuum to run a power booster.
      Mine makes no vacuum whatsoever. No chance power brakes would work without hydro boost. But I don’t think that is a very good solution for brake feel either.
      1971 Camaro - 406 / T56
      2016 Camaro SS convertible
      2018 Colorado 4x4

    5. #25
      Join Date
      Oct 2014
      Location
      DFW, Texas
      Posts
      422
      Country Flag: United States
      The effort behind the manual setup doesn't bother me at all, though as soon as I have knee problems, hydroboost will save the day. Though the feel behind a hydroboost is remarkably numb.
      1972 Plymouth 'Cuda - Not LS-swapped, 5.7L Hemi [MS3 Gold Box], T56 Magnum 6-speed - 'Cuda Build Page
      1976 Dodge D100 - Warlock
      2016 Subaru WRX - E30 Tune

    6. #26
      Join Date
      Oct 2018
      Location
      San Jose, CA
      Posts
      523

      Symptoms of having the wrong sized master cylinder?

      Oh I meant the effort of designing it to provide enough clamping force. Doesn’t have to be more actual physical effort - that is more of a trade off with pedal travel.
      But manual setup is much more finicky in the design - pick the wrong master bore or caliper piston size or pad coefficient and you can have too much or too little clamping force and the brakes will then require too much physical effort or be too touchy.

      Power boost covers up mis matched components more than a manual set up. Also most of the off the shelf kits and late model factory conversions are designed for power so it’s easier to get a matched setup for power anyway.
      1971 Camaro - 406 / T56
      2016 Camaro SS convertible
      2018 Colorado 4x4

    7. #27
      Join Date
      Aug 2010
      Posts
      440
      Having had my system put together by RST based on my car set up (tires, weight, duties,etc), I think the foundation is there for a great performing brake system. I think a small tweak might be needed here and there for optimal performance on the street or track. Paint is getting finished up now, and I hope to get everything final sorted out this spring. The goal is to have brakes that bite and have quick stopping power on the street, and brakes that can stop consistently and safely on the track. Predictably without the numb and vague feeling I currently have on the street.
      Joe
      1969 Firebird Project
      1967 Frirebird 400 convertible
      2013 Boss 302

    8. #28
      Join Date
      Oct 2018
      Location
      San Jose, CA
      Posts
      523
      Absolutely. I am doing the same currently actually.
      1971 Camaro - 406 / T56
      2016 Camaro SS convertible
      2018 Colorado 4x4

    9. #29
      Join Date
      Oct 2014
      Location
      DFW, Texas
      Posts
      422
      Country Flag: United States
      Quote Originally Posted by c4racer2 View Post
      Oh I meant the effort of designing it to provide enough clamping force. Doesn’t have to be more actual physical effort - that is more of a trade off with pedal travel...

      Understood here, I just changed from 7/8" bore to 15/16" bore. The feel from the 7/8" bore was awesome, but the travel was just too high for my application. We'll see how the 15/16" shakes out.
      1972 Plymouth 'Cuda - Not LS-swapped, 5.7L Hemi [MS3 Gold Box], T56 Magnum 6-speed - 'Cuda Build Page
      1976 Dodge D100 - Warlock
      2016 Subaru WRX - E30 Tune

    10. #30
      Join Date
      Aug 2010
      Posts
      440
      Quote Originally Posted by GoodysGotaCuda View Post
      Understood here, I just changed from 7/8" bore to 15/16" bore. The feel from the 7/8" bore was awesome, but the travel was just too high for my application. We'll see how the 15/16" shakes out.
      Any results?
      Joe
      1969 Firebird Project
      1967 Frirebird 400 convertible
      2013 Boss 302

    11. #31
      Join Date
      Apr 2006
      Location
      Huntington Beach, CA
      Posts
      2,415
      Country Flag: United States
      I just wanted to add a few comments about pad compounds since I have quite a bit of experience driving with Wilwood pads on the street autocross and track.

      I never ran the BP-10s but I rand the BP-20's for a long time. It was my go to autocross pad precisely because the braking effort was so high. It hugely helped minimize accidental lock up on the autocross course while I was learning to become a better autocross braker.

      I noticed that anytime I changed to a brand new rotor the BP-20's seemed to take a lot more to fully bed in. Even after following the Wilwood pad bedding procedure to the letter they would suck on the street. But after one long autocross lap or two shorter laps they would fully bed in and the street cold bite performance would increase dramatically.

      I would never use a BP-20 on the track with a 3k+ lb car. At least in the front that is. They will overheat too quickly. Though on a lighter car like my friends Cobra they handled 30 minute wheel to wheel race sessions great.

      E compounds will work great for street driving and autocross usage. You will see noticeably less pedal effort compared to BP-20s. Also, not a great track pad on heavy cars without auxiliary cooling.

      My go to track pad for Wilwood is now the BP-30. Much better heat tolerance and great liner bite that you can modulate. I came from the BP-40's which also had good heat tolerance and bit but not nearly as linear and super temperamental to bedding and bringing the pads up to temp properly. Fail to do either of those and hello brake shudder.
      Please Subscribe to the AutoXandTrack YouTube Channel

      Autocross and track blog about running autocross and track events with pro touring cars

    12. #32
      Join Date
      Nov 2016
      Location
      Sulphur, La
      Posts
      598
      This seems like a decent place for my question. I run Wilwoods on my Jeep. I know they are not ideal for my application as there is simply not enough surface area for this heavy of a vehicle. The thing that I don't understand is that I get very good initial bite with light pedal pressure but if I completely stand on the brake the vehicle braking only improves by 30% or so & I am no where close to being able to lock the brake. Have I simply met the mechanical limit of my braking components?

    13. #33
      Join Date
      Apr 2006
      Location
      Huntington Beach, CA
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      Quote Originally Posted by CSG View Post
      This seems like a decent place for my question. I run Wilwoods on my Jeep. I know they are not ideal for my application as there is simply not enough surface area for this heavy of a vehicle. The thing that I don't understand is that I get very good initial bite with light pedal pressure but if I completely stand on the brake the vehicle braking only improves by 30% or so & I am no where close to being able to lock the brake. Have I simply met the mechanical limit of my braking components?
      Unlikely. Larger surface area of a pad and rotor doesn't automatically mean greater clamping force and ability to stop the vehicle or lock up the brakes. As Donny said earlier it boils down to pressure and friction. Pressure isn't tied to the size of the caliper body and rotors and is only relevant to the size of the caliper pistons to master cylinder piston and the stroke.

      Simplistically speaking the giant rotors and calipers you see on race cars or heavy vehicles is there to support heat management and pad life management.

      I suspect that your system either doesn't generate enough pressure and possibly is compounded with a low friction pad. What is the system you are running? And how many miles on the pads?

      Also, Wilwood should be able to help if you talk to them directly.
      Please Subscribe to the AutoXandTrack YouTube Channel

      Autocross and track blog about running autocross and track events with pro touring cars

    14. #34
      Join Date
      Oct 2014
      Location
      DFW, Texas
      Posts
      422
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      Quote Originally Posted by jlwdvm View Post
      Any results?

      So far so good for me, the pedal travel-to-effort has improved to my liking. Though, the pad knockback still sucks, I need to get that sorted out.
      1972 Plymouth 'Cuda - Not LS-swapped, 5.7L Hemi [MS3 Gold Box], T56 Magnum 6-speed - 'Cuda Build Page
      1976 Dodge D100 - Warlock
      2016 Subaru WRX - E30 Tune

    15. #35
      Join Date
      Nov 2016
      Location
      Sulphur, La
      Posts
      598
      Quote Originally Posted by Chad-1stGen View Post
      Unlikely. Larger surface area of a pad and rotor doesn't automatically mean greater clamping force and ability to stop the vehicle or lock up the brakes. As Donny said earlier it boils down to pressure and friction. Pressure isn't tied to the size of the caliper body and rotors and is only relevant to the size of the caliper pistons to master cylinder piston and the stroke.

      Simplistically speaking the giant rotors and calipers you see on race cars or heavy vehicles is there to support heat management and pad life management.

      I suspect that your system either doesn't generate enough pressure and possibly is compounded with a low friction pad. What is the system you are running? And how many miles on the pads?

      Also, Wilwood should be able to help if you talk to them directly.
      I have:
      Wilwood Dynalite caliper - (2) 1.38" dia. pistons
      1" bore MS
      tried BP 10 and BP 20 pads
      4500lb 1 ton Jeep TJ

      The different pads had different amounts of bite during moderate braking. Both showed very little braking improvement when going from moderate to very hard pedal effort. IE takes almost the same distance to stop when applying moderate pedal pressure and when standing on the pedal with everything my skinny ass has to offer.

    16. #36
      Join Date
      Sep 2010
      Location
      Beach Park IL
      Posts
      2,838
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      Without doing any math, the 1.38 piston diameter seems really small. Even on the street rod stuff we use the 1.75" dynalites.
      Donny

      Support your local hot rod shop!

    17. #37
      Join Date
      Aug 2010
      Posts
      440
      To recap: 3200# 69 firebird with 6 piston Aerolites front and 4 piston rears with BP-10 pads and Spec 37 rotors and a manual 7/8" Wilwood MC, stock pedal set up in manual rod hole. Design and part selection by RSRT.

      On the street: it seems like I have to think ahead to stop and have no bite until I get a little heat into the brakes. I can lock up the fronts, but lot of effort with the pedal pressed a long way.

      First track day yesterday: I made sure I had heat in the brakes before I thought about entering a corner with any speed. Granted, yesterday was basically test, tune, and break in....completely new car, new LS3, new T56, new rear end, etc. The longest straights are 1/4 mile long and I have 570 horses on tap. I experienced some fade, but I expected that with the pads I am running at the moment. I wasn't out to set a new track record by any means. Car handled great.....much better than expected actually. I've spent a lot of time on the same track with my '16 GT350, '13 Boss 302, and '15 Z/28. I couldn't believe how well the car handled. If I had to sum it up in one word: composed! the one disappointment was the brake feel. I guess I am looking for more "bite"....that instant wham that my other cars have (granted they are power brake cars). Maybe I am too used to them to like the feel of what I have now (not opposed to going to power brakes), or maybe I need to tweek MC size and pad selection for street and track. Thoughts?
      Joe
      1969 Firebird Project
      1967 Frirebird 400 convertible
      2013 Boss 302

    18. #38
      Join Date
      Oct 2014
      Location
      DFW, Texas
      Posts
      422
      Country Flag: United States
      You'll need to make some mental adjustments coming from a performance power brake car to performance manual brake car. It'll take some travel to generate similar pressures on the manual car, which makes it "feel" less responsive, in comparison.
      1972 Plymouth 'Cuda - Not LS-swapped, 5.7L Hemi [MS3 Gold Box], T56 Magnum 6-speed - 'Cuda Build Page
      1976 Dodge D100 - Warlock
      2016 Subaru WRX - E30 Tune

    19. #39
      Join Date
      Aug 2010
      Posts
      440
      I think I can see the direction this is going. I can change to a larger MC, drill a higher pedal rod hole, bleed the brakes 15 more times, change pads, etc and still end up going to a power system. I think with my short legs and the fact that I am used to my other 2 street/track cars (Z/28 and GT350R) I am probably not going to be happy with the feel of a manual system. I need instant pedal response because that is where my leg strength is. My seat is one hole from being all the way forward on the Sparco brackets and my arms feel good while on the wheel. I took some measurements yesterday and thing the switch to the DSE power master and booster isn't going to be too difficult. It should arrive tomorrow. Anyone in the market for a slightly used 7/8" Wilwood master in natural finish?)
      Joe
      1969 Firebird Project
      1967 Frirebird 400 convertible
      2013 Boss 302

    20. #40
      Join Date
      Sep 2010
      Location
      Beach Park IL
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      The DSE setup responds quickly and makes great pressure and will be the closest in pedal feel to your late model cars........

      but you don't have ABS and you will have to recalibrate your input. Depending on how you drive now that may be a large or small change. I think you are likely making the right choice for you.

      Donny

      Support your local hot rod shop!


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