Share your formula for a $50,000 pro-touring car or truck -- approximate

[btmatt]

Ahmad, your car has a twin in south Texas. My formula is to decide what size tire and wheel you want front and rear. This will dictate what is needed for power, braking, and suspension to meet the capability of those shoes. Budget then increases with capability.

[JustJohn]

Lol....define “old”. A 1997-04 Corvette isn’t exactly a new car....as sad as that is. 20+ years lol

One of my engineers is proud of 2 of his classic cars...a 1st gen MR2 and a 3rd gen RX-7

As much as I hate to admit it, the MR2 actually qualifies. He's fitted a later, larger, Toyota engine and added a turbo, filled up the wheel wells, and is trying to decide on a big brake solution.

I like the car, just have to curl into the fetal position to sit in it.

[Chad-1stGen]

I'll play. I sat down and created a huge spreadsheet of what I would do if building an all out autocross pro touring car out of a classic today. Here is an aggregated breakdown. It assumes labor is done by the builder and that you can weld. Welding is a small part and there is room in the budget to pay for that if needed.

• $10K Purchase car - Early Mustang with nice but older paint (these are readily available in SoCal at this price range. Common paint condition will protect the metal and look good but won't win car shows). These will also be running and driving and can sell the drive train for a few bucks
• $12K Suspension - TCI IFS front suspension (includes single adjustable ridetech coil overs and sway bar) with 13" wilwood upgrade. TCI rear torque arm with ridetech single adjustable and swaybar upgrades. Grand National Floater with wilwood calipers and Strange center section with true trac. Wilwood master, pre bent brake line kit. Could go with the Currie full floater and have all the brackets welded by TCI for about $1K more
• $10K Drivetrain - LS3/T6060 pullout with all accessories and wiring harness ($6K), Additional $4k to cover tuning ($500), aftermarket pan ($500), fuel system ($500 retroworx based), radiator & fan ($320), exhaust ($500, keep manifolds), driveshaft ($500 IE), fluids ($100), A list of other misc items that took me up to the $10k.
• $1K Interior - left bone stock except for a fixed back drivers seat and belts.
• $3.2K Wheels/tires - Forgestar Wheels & 200tw tires. Target tire size of 275
• $5K fudge factor for unforeseen parts. But I already have lots of little items added in for things like brake lines, making power steering hoses, fluids, etc.
• $41.2K Total.

I would have no problem beating a stock $50K Camaro with a typical autocross driver with the above setup. Would it have the ergonomics and comfort of the $50k Camaro for cruising around town? No. Would it be a blast to drive? Hell yes.

Do Fox Bodies count? Because if so, here is a regional winning autocross fox body build for dirt cheap that commonly beats CAM-C late model Camaros. Lots of room left in the budget to add nice paint and interior. Autocross Fox Body Cheap!

[BonzoHansen]

Seems like you could buy this, but an engine and you have a pretty nice little car

https://www.pro-touring.com/threads/...aro-LS3-TR6060

[Build-It-Break-It]

Ahmad, your car has a twin in south Texas. My formula is to decide what size tire and wheel you want front and rear. This will dictate what is needed for power, braking, and suspension to meet the capability of those shoes. Budget then increases with capability.

That's bad @$$

[ClosNova805]

Are those the Z06 wheels how do you guys run those with spacers I'm currently building my 69 ls nova on a college student budget lol no such thing need wheels to fit my baer T4 kit up front.

[btmatt]

Yes, those are C5 Z06 wheels on my camaro. The rear has 1" spacer on stock width rear end and required mini tubs to clear. The fronts require 1 1/4" spacer, but may vary based upon your brake package (we currently run ATS spindle, wilwood hat and rotor)

[Build-It-Break-It]

Are those the Z06 wheels how do you guys run those with spacers I'm currently building my 69 ls nova on a college student budget lol no such thing need wheels to fit my baer T4 kit up front.

The rear end on my car was made 62" wms to wms so they fit prefect. It's also mini tubed with speedtech rear torque arm. The front of the car uses the speedtech extreme subframe so they also fit almost prefect. I don't run spacers front or rear. I'm running all 4 of the 18x10.5 c5Z06 wheels front and rear

[GoodysGotaCuda]

I’ve had my Cuda for 13 years and my recent $45k investment didn’t include the cost of the car. Today a complete Cuda will run 15k, minimum.

That said I watched key supplier sales for a year or two before I needed the parts and saved that information. 30% on SpeedHut for cyber Monday, 30% off Hotchkis on this date, etc. That helped get some deals on parts, the other is a plan and having patience. If you have a plan, you know what parts you need, if you know what parts you need and what a good deal is, you can strike quick on a good deal. $350 BBK throttle body showed up online for $150 shipped, I didn’t need it then but the deal was right.

Outside of that it comes to monitoring scope creep and doing the work yourself. The car cost would have easily been into six figures had I paid for more labor than just paint.

[rustomatic]

Step one is learn to weld, even on a really bad level. Everyone keeps going back to cost when the idea is to BUILD. While yes, all parts of a build cost money, avoiding paying someone to participate is the best way to save money; if learning to build is not worth your time, you are not a hotrodder in the classic or modern sense of the term. That's fine, because your money is well used by the manufacturers and vendors here. I've had years on both sides of the fence, and only after beating my head really hard against a brick wall for too long (doing the bolt-on parts thing) did I decide that the angle grinder and welder were the only ways I'd truly get a car to a level I wanted (within a semi-reasonable dollar limit).

So many people's number one or two is paint. What the hell does paint have to do with performance, which is the main point of hotrodding? Ahmad's example above is the perfect illustration. Guys in the old days did not put Cadillac engines in old Fords because they liked the color of the paint on the valve covers. They just wanted their junk to go fast. If the thing avoided being crashed or burned long enough, maybe paint would come . . .

I like how one guy mentions a Corvette C5 as an option, then another mentions spending 12 grand on a parts package for suspension. Seriously? To drive around cones in second gear and to roll up to Starbucks? Really? Why don't we look at the C5's parts cost on eBay? The cost of experience and skill (on any level) is arguably expensive, but good-working and extremely well-designed Corvette parts (or full parts assemblies like front and rear suspensions that come with steering and braking components) are not, comparatively speaking.

Sites like this are still great examples of free education, and there are guys like Ron Sutton who have given out awesome quantities of free information that will both save you money and maximize performance (like his brake thread). Learning is free. Is your hobby a hobby or is it a poorly disguised charity?

As for needing a Camaro to start with, again, you probably picked paint as number one. The greatest aesthetics in hotrodding have come from what happened after the car was chosen and modified (most often out of necessity for performance). Ron S.'s Mustang and AMX are good examples here.

With the right builder, whether home or shop-based, you can be made jealous of a 1972 Duster, even if you'd never buy it yourself. Slap C4 or C5 front and rear suspension on a cheap 2x2 frame (light, just like GT1 or Ron Sutton), then add your junkyard LS3 (with a decent cam and springs for the extra 80 horsepower) and TR6060, and you're in for what, 12 grand (along with whatever time it takes you to figure out how to put it together)? With the right driver and good tuning, this combo will make a GT3 owner on a track seriously consider his or her coolness and life choices, if only for a few golden moments. Options abound.

[XLexusTech]

50 k

Ok c5 corvette used in A1 pristine condition 20k
Ls7 t56 magnum 20k
Brake upgrade 5 k
Wheel tire upgrade 5k

Done

[dhutton]

Interesting thread but I haven’t seen anyone mention resale value. It seems to me that this should be considered when selecting a project. I don’t want to spend $50k on a car that will yield ten cents on the dollar if I decide to sell it.

Don

[Ron Sutton]

While many posts have been spot on, I think we're getting off track from the OP's intention for this thread. Steve was asking, or suggesting, we share our ideas of how to build a great Pro-Touring car to autocross, maybe track, etc ... for around or under $50K.

I'd like to suggest we not fantasize, but instead list real world ways to get the most performance for our buck building a 60's to 90's muscle car to beat on & have fun with. Ahmad has done a good job of showing us how he did his. John, Tu, Scott & others made great points too. Lance Hamilton should join in because his '85 Monte Carlo SS is a great performing car & I know he has under $50K in it.

Let's share realistic ways, ideas & methods to build a car the best way possible on a $50K budget.

[79 Camaro]

Can we throw a BMW E36 LS swap into the mix? They have tons of aftermarket support. Kind of like the Mustang or Camaro of Europe. Nice cars are cheep. As far as autocross the E36 are smaller so they can do the small autocross courses better. Just my .02. Finding a nice somewhat rust free late 60's - early 70's car for less than 10K won't be easy.

[Build-It-Break-It]

"I'd like to suggest we not fantasize, but instead list real world ways to get the most performance for our buck building a 60's to 90's muscle car to beat on & have fun with. "

When I think of a muscle car I wouldn't even consider a BMW, Mercedes, Porsche, Volvo etc. Etc.. they're cool cars no doubt but not a muscle car by definition.

[csouth]

I'll bite... Since I've always liked 2nd Gen Camaro's and I just saw a a decent driver quality painted one for sale on CL in MI for 13k...

Assuming I'm doing all of the work :

'71 Camaro - 13,000
Speedtech Street Fighter front suspension and Rear Torque Arm- $8000
Forged wheels of my choice - 5,000 max
C6 Z06 conversion brake setup - 2500
LSA Pullout -12,000
T56 Magnum- 3500
Used Recaros- 500
Notched tank - 500 +/-

44K +/- Hard parts, all rounded up... The miscellaneous parts still would not be 6k.

[cornfedbill]

Hey Steve! This is a GREAT idea. I think we'll get people sharing tips to save money, build things right and figure out the priorities. Love it.

I'll start by adding some thoughts ...

1. Figure out BEFORE your build even starts:
a. How you want to use the car
b. What are your goals for the car
c. What are your priorities from a & b
d. Timeline to have the car done & enjoying driving it

With all of the above, be realistic with yous:
A. Hours available & timeline to build
B. Money saved & money you can set aside each month
C. Your skills ... and skills of friends who will help ... that you can do yourself
D. What has to be outsourced
E. What needs to be bought new & what can be bought used

Write up a list of what you want to do ... along with projected cost & hours ... for:
* Base car
* Body & Paint
* Interior
* Suspension
* Rear end & 3rd Member
* Trans & Driveline
* Engine & Accessories
* Exhaust
* Brakes
* Amenities (A/C, stereo, etc)

Ask yourself is this build realistic with my time & budget to get done in 1 year, 2 years, longer?
Then figure out if you need to trim or increase the budget to achieve what you want.

My suggestion ... and this is ONLY my opinion. Do not come up with unrealistic build goals, that take many years to get the car done. Some people enjoy the build MORE than driving the car. I don't think this advice applies to you. But those of you that want to be out there driving, autocrossing and/or tracking your car ... my suggestion is don't make the goal so lofty the project takes forever to get done. I see projects taking 3, 4, 5 even 10 years to build. Shoot ... if I was in your shoes, I'd skip the $20,000 paint job & run that puppy the way the paint is. Or go do a $2,000 body wrap & call it good.

Just my opinion. Best wishes all !


P.S. When I get more time, I'll come back on here & share ways to make your car perform at a high level, without wasting money.

Ron,

Always the engineer/program manager. This is a good list. I would add, "Don't give into scope creep." My simple refresh with new springs, shocks, bushings and a simple engine rebuild turned out to be out of hand.

Instead of rebuilding the stock '72 400 small block, I saved the block and replaced everything else.

I bought a used M21. Then when I rebuilt it, I saved the tailshaft housing, the front pilot, and the side cover assembly. In went new gears, shafts, bearings, housing, midplate... and lots of money.

What would have cost me about $3k is now closer to $20k and climbing. But spread over 20 years, the pain has not been too bad. It's only that cheap because of a lot of horse trading and performing all the labor myself - except some donated labor from friends and my sons.

As you can see, I finally broke down and called the project "Scope Creep".

Make a plan. Study the plan. Refine the plan on paper BEFORE buying ANYTHING. Check the plan again. Stick to the plan. Review the plan frequently to make sure you are still following it. Stick to the plan.

That's my advice.

[cornfedbill]

If you want to know what I consider the very best bang for the buck, I will tell you to buy a very clean C4 Corvette 6-speed for about $12k.
Clutch assembly with new flywheel $1k (a bit high but covers all the miscellaneous stuff you will run into)
Wheels and tires (C6 take-off wheels and good tires) $2000
Live with the paint.
Suspension upgrades - shocks, bushings, etc. $3500
Motor refresh and upgrades, if you are willing to build it yourself and can live with less than 500 ponies - $5k
Other stuff that is always broken and needs fixed - $10k

Under $35k and very capable.

I know it's not too sexy. But if all you want is bang for the buck, that's the ticket in my mind. Trust me, I've been pondering this route for my next build to use for open road racing, standing mile, and track days.

[BMR Sales]

When I think of a muscle car I wouldn't even consider a BMW, Mercedes, Porsche, Volvo etc. Etc.. they're cool cars no doubt but not a muscle car by definition.

I do consider a LS Swapped of any of the above to be Muscle Cars or Pro-Touring Cars - Fun, Powerful, Comfortable, can Corner and Stop.

One of my next cars will be a LS swapped Porsche 944, engine weight is close to the 4 cyl and with double the reliable HP & Torque. I already race a LS3 Swapped Mercedes!

[Build-It-Break-It]

I do consider a LS Swapped of any of the above to be Muscle Cars or Pro-Touring Cars - Fun, Powerful, Comfortable, can Corner and Stop.

I think even tho YOU consider it a Muscle car most wouldn't and it's off topic of what the original poster is looking for I think.

On another note I'd like everyone to meet my friends. They have shells, weapons and they're green. By definition they're my friends the ninja turtles......