'63 Ford Falcon "Gold Digger"

[andrewb70]

Looks like a fun ride! I would paint the wheel centers gold.

Andrew

[Boosted Falcon]

The car looks great and early congratulations on finishing your degree.

[NorthFalcon]

Thanks guys! It is definitely a fun car, it is by far the fastest car, the best handling and has the most braking power out of any car that I have had.

[NorthFalcon]

Small update,

When I bought the car it came with a bunch of parts including a fiberglass hood. My dad mounted it up the other day using some quick latch hood latches and sent me a photo. Short time later, he said "I've got some bad news" my first thought was he crashed the car. Turns out after mounting the hood he took it for a drive, and when he was cruising about 50mph the entire hood blew off. (scary) broke one of the edges off on impact but he thinks he can repair it easily. I'm most bummed on the fact that quick latch hood latches dont work at all. After speaking to them they told us we would need at least 12 of their latches on the hood, pretty ridiculous. After reviewing their instagram its clear people put them on just for the looks. So steer clear of these latches. Also put some new valve covers on because the cheap steel ones I had wee cracked.

Also I made a post in the suspension section trying to get some input on dialing in this car. I guess I will post it here too in hopes that it gets more attention.

I am hoping on getting some advice on my suspension setup on my falcon. I've done quite a bit of research on the forums, and I have read all of the information I can get from some of Ron Suttons post. I'll lay out my setup and some of the issues I am having.

Setup:
1963 Ford Falcon (2700lbs with a full tank of gas, no driver)
331 stroker motor approximately 400 whp.
Falken FT615k+ 245/40/18
Falken FT615k+ 275/35/18
Street or Track front coilover system running Bilstein coil-overs "Race" valving with a 600lb spring/ with shelby drop.
Street or Track 3 link with watts link running Bilstein coil-overs "Race" valving with a 325lb spring
Front sway bar is 7/8"
no rear sway bar.

Issues: Now the biggest issue I am having is in the corners, for example a left hand turn on throttle the drivers side front wheel will pick up off the ground. I wish I had photos but at the last auto cross event multiple people said they thought it was 8" off the ground. (yikes) Despite the car picking this wheel off the ground, the car maintained insane traction. I have never had the car push and has an enormous amount of turn in. After the first two laps I pulled the car into the pits, and raised the rear ride height by 3/4". This improved how far the front wheel was coming off the ground but I still know something is off. The car is rolling over on itself and causing the rear end to bottom out so the only thing the car can do after bottoming out this right rear, is to raise the front left. I would assume the front right is close to the bottom of the stroke as well. I realize my front sway bar is not big enough for the driving that I am doing but I still believe there are other factors involved. Currently I have my watts link pivot in the middle position and believe I may be able to adjust some of the body roll by moving the watts link pivot up slightly. (roll center) This may help but I don't think it is the right corrective action. After reading Ron Suttons post, I have two plans of attack with some median in between: 1 stiff front springs, soft springs in the rear, with a small sway-bar in the front. (This is what I imagine is my setup currently, and what Shaun at Street or Track has designed intentionally) 2: Soft front springs, stiff rear springs, Stiff front swaybar, and a soft rear swaybar. I would like to find a medium to this and maybe the most cost efficient method to this.

My thinking: The motion ratio of the front suspension is should be around 81%, Shaun mentions on his website that his front coil-over design improves stock motion ratio by 50%, stock motion ratio is 54%. The rear motion ratio according to my rough calculations should be around 88%. I do not think the spring rates are balanced well. With out a rear sway-bar there is not a way to counter act this rotational force, so the car blows through the travel. As for the front, I think a bigger front sway bar could be beneficial, although I do not think this is the main source of my problems. I would like to see my car remain very level in the corners, overall ride quality is not a main concern.

I would like to hear your opinions on where I should start, and maybe setups for mustangs that others have run. I think I should throw more rear spring at the car, somewhere around 550lbs. I will see how this affects it and go from there. Springs are cheap enough to test and tune with.

Thanks guys,

Nick

[Project Bike Truck]

Sorry about your hood!

I just re-read (well looked at pictures) your thread and first things first is chassis stiffness. I don't see any other than your harness bar. If the rear end is staying planted and lifting the wheel up you are dealing with flexy chassis. If you sub framed connected the car, worked on the stiffness of the front end (http://opentrackerracing.com/product...n-trans-brace/) and put the stock shock tower braces with the bump stop on them, and all the other tricks then adress the suspension.

I can't speak on suspension set up, but I can talk about chassis stiffness.

[NorthFalcon]

Sorry about your hood!

I just re-read (well looked at pictures) your thread and first things first is chassis stiffness. I don't see any other than your harness bar. If the rear end is staying planted and lifting the wheel up you are dealing with flexy chassis. If you sub framed connected the car, worked on the stiffness of the front end (http://opentrackerracing.com/product...n-trans-brace/) and put the stock shock tower braces with the bump stop on them, and all the other tricks then adress the suspension.

I can't speak on suspension set up, but I can talk about chassis stiffness.

I think chassis stiffness is definitely a concern. I plan on making sub-frame connectors, hopefully with at least one cross member. I also plan to make a new transmission cross member that should help with stiffness. Mike maier is coming out with a new shock tower brace for the falcons and I might pick one up instead of fabricating one, as I already have a growing list of things I want to do before another autocross.

[chunger]

Wow, pretty suprizing about your hood! I'm guessing what happened is that there's no stiffener across the front of the hood and air got under and lifted the whole thing up? The top button appears to be unreleased, so did it pull off of the pin underneath? Or did the pin shear?

I have those exact same hoodpins (well, the locking version) for my stock steel hood, now I'm a bit concerned...

[NorthFalcon]

Wow, pretty suprizing about your hood! I'm guessing what happened is that there's no stiffener across the front of the hood and air got under and lifted the whole thing up? The top button appears to be unreleased, so did it pull off of the pin underneath? Or did the pin shear?

I have those exact same hoodpins (well, the locking version) for my stock steel hood, now I'm a bit concerned...

The corner was just placed back on the car to show where it was. The air pressure under the hood was too much for the hood pins and they all pulled out at the same time. We decided not to run the factory latch and hinges but it probably worked in our favor because it probably would have tweaked the hinges and could have even smashed the windshield.

[Project Bike Truck]

I think chassis stiffness is definitely a concern. I plan on making sub-frame connectors, hopefully with at least one cross member. I also plan to make a new transmission cross member that should help with stiffness. Mike maier is coming out with a new shock tower brace for the falcons and I might pick one up instead of fabricating one, as I already have a growing list of things I want to do before another autocross.

I would personally start there and see how everything works out. I like the looks of Mikes bar if the budget is there go for it. saves time and headache of Fabbing your own stuff.

[NorthFalcon]

Does anybody know the origin of this car? Cant find much on the internet but looks badass.

[Project Bike Truck]

Does anybody know the origin of this car? Cant find much on the internet but looks badass.

Oh yes please must know more.

[Craig510]

You will need way more rear spring rate. I doubt the motion ratios are that high. The rear will be lower under roll than under squat because of the width of the shock mounts. That is the whole point of the MOD 2 rear suspension from Mike Maier Inc. The push rods are out further than is possible with a coil over and the angle of the rods and bell cranks results in equal motion ratios under roll and bump. You will probably need about 600# rear springs to keep the front tire down.

Subframe connectors will help a lot and you need a shock tower brace.

[moparandy04]

I’d start by confirming the front and rear motion ratios. With a setup that has roughly the same MR front and rear, it’s atypical in my experience to run such a large split in spring rates. I’m not saying it’s a bad thing, especially if you like the overall handling characteristics, but the MR becomes important when looking at the ride frequency and roll stiffness/roll rate. Are your coilovers adjustable, or is the compression/rebound valving fixed?

Keep in mind, if you like the current balance and only want to improve on the roll characteristics, jumping up to a 550lb rear spring rate is a huge swing.

One contributing factor is the lack of a rear bar. You’d be amazed at how much this can reduce roll, without a huge change in overall balance. The comment relating to chassis stiffness is also spot on. I think addressing those two issues, and increasing your front bar in proportion to the rear (to maintain the existing handling characteristics) would yield a huge difference.

[NorthFalcon]

@craig510 Thanks, I think this is the direction I am going. I plan on fabricating some subframe connectors and waiting on you guys at Mike Maier for the shcok tower brace. I ordered some 550# springs only because I didnt want to have 4 600# this way I have the ability to run the 550s up front if I ever want too. I'll report back and let you guys know how it goes.

@moparandy04
Most people say that the addition of a rear sway bar on mustangs and falcons really upsets the car. I plan on taking some more detailed measurements to calculate motion ratios to confirm my plan.

[moparandy04]

@craig510 Thanks, I think this is the direction I am going. I plan on fabricating some subframe connectors and waiting on you guys at Mike Maier for the shcok tower brace. I ordered some 550# springs only because I didnt want to have 4 600# this way I have the ability to run the 550s up front if I ever want too. I'll report back and let you guys know how it goes.

@moparandy04
Most people say that the addition of a rear sway bar on mustangs and falcons really upsets the car. I plan on taking some more detailed measurements to calculate motion ratios to confirm my plan.

Upsets the car in what way? With the same SOT suspension kit? You have to look at how a rear bar would influence the roll characteristics, including front vs. rear bias. It's not chassis/platform dependent, although certain variables can come into play. 550's are a big change in something that is less than 3000lbs, and although will help mitigate rolling over on the LR or RR, will change the balance a lot.

Are your shocks adjustable? Any idea what kind of compression or rebound forces they produce, and at what shock velocity?

[NorthFalcon]

Upsets the car in what way? With the same SOT suspension kit? You have to look at how a rear bar would influence the roll characteristics, including front vs. rear bias. It's not chassis/platform dependent, although certain variables can come into play. 550's are a big change in something that is less than 3000lbs, and although will help mitigate rolling over on the LR or RR, will change the balance a lot.

Are your shocks adjustable? Any idea what kind of compression or rebound forces they produce, and at what shock velocity?

The shocks are not adjustable, and I have no clue as to what kind of compression or rebound rates they have. I plan to buy 2 or 3 way adjustable shocks in the future but that will be way down the line. Shaun from street or track said that everytime he has put a rear sway bar on a car with his 3 link it causes the car to push. I think his suspension design is good but it seems its not fully sorted. He also does higher speed road racing so it isn't optimized for the autocross that I am doing.

[moparandy04]

The shocks are not adjustable, and I have no clue as to what kind of compression or rebound rates they have. I plan to buy 2 or 3 way adjustable shocks in the future but that will be way down the line. Shaun from street or track said that everytime he has put a rear sway bar on a car with his 3 link it causes the car to push. I think his suspension design is good but it seems its not fully sorted. He also does higher speed road racing so it isn't optimized for the autocross that I am doing.

Speaking in generalities, yes, guys will either run no rear bar or disconnect it at certain events. Sometimes more roll can be better - more roll, more weight transfer, and more grip within reason. This is also heavily dependent on shock/spring package. With your setup, since it's rolling over so much, I don't think a rear bar would hurt it enough to induce a tight condition.

If the shocks aren't adjustable and without knowing general force curves, that could also be a contributing factor. Not enough compression/rebound can also allow too much roll. Their website talks about the race valving having a schrader valve to set nitrogen pressure - do yours have this?

[NorthFalcon]

Speaking in generalities, yes, guys will either run no rear bar or disconnect it at certain events. Sometimes more roll can be better - more roll, more weight transfer, and more grip within reason. This is also heavily dependent on shock/spring package. With your setup, since it's rolling over so much, I don't think a rear bar would hurt it enough to induce a tight condition.

If the shocks aren't adjustable and without knowing general force curves, that could also be a contributing factor. Not enough compression/rebound can also allow too much roll. Their website talks about the race valving having a schrader valve to set nitrogen pressure - do yours have this?

I opted for race valving with out the schrader valve because I didn't plan on buying a nitrogen setup and he mentioned the slowly leak. In hindsight I should have gotten the schrader and could have used my mountain bike pump to set shock pressure.

[rustomatic]

Definitely avoid over-springing your car. A stiff car sucks, and it is completely unnecessary in order to make your car handle well, especially with the tire sizes you're able to use (so long as they are not rubbing and locking up under compression). Watch a C7 Corvette autocross, and see how it moves all over the place, but does not lose grip--Mary Pozzi's second-gen Camaro works the same way. That's the quality you want. Staying "flat" is easy to believe as "good" handling, but it is crap. The stiffer you make the car, the more you'll hate driving it. Do one thing at a time, and adjust/optimize what you have as much as possible before replacing anything. Don't waste any more money going down the bolt-on sewer pipe before you know exactly what each part will do (if anything).

Subframe connectors are complete BS for stiffening up the torsional rigidity of a unibody car--they do next to nothing, as many tests have demonstrated (Google it). At best, you can make some out of 2x2 (cheap!), but they will really only be effective if they are running along your rockers, or at least connect there; those pretend frame rails under the Falcon are really just bent sheet metal with very little integrity. Do you have torque boxes under the car? Rather than wasting more money on further part-throwing, study the engineering behind the thing (and modern design), especially chassis rigidity improvements, then buy a welder (if you don't already have one) and get familiar with the local metal supplier. You've built the car to this point--take the next logical step.

[Twentyover]

Does anybody know the origin of this car? Cant find much on the internet but looks badass.

I was corner working a VARA race at Willow a couple years back, and a Falcon-chero like this was running (it may have been this car.) Made lots of noise and lots of speed. Swung by their paddock on Saturday night before too much beer was consumed.

forgive me if my memory isn't what it once was, but as I remember it...
It was a tube chassis car not a pan car, The base was a regional truck series chassis, like ARCA Truck, but I think they said it ran at Irwindale. I think they said it was originally skinned as an S10, ran the series spec motor a SBC if I remember correctly. The Falcon tin was dropped on the chassis, and I think it retained the S10 windscreen, side window openings, etc.

Only thing that was missing was the lawnmower handlebars coming out of the bed cover .


Or maybe too much beer had been consumed and I was dreamin' this.


After posting this I went looking.
http://corvaircenter.com/phorum/read.php?1,590725

Looks like my memory is in pretty good shape (although I didn't think it was that long ago).

In the first picture, the green building above the head of the guy on the left is the Budwieser tower in T4, I was flagging T3, a climbing LH. Looks like an open A/Production field