L&H A-body spindles

[Rod]

Its not poor information. Because this thread is clearly listed as A-body discussion, those kits shouldn't even be listed for A-body because its obviously NOT an F-body.

the link put up was to an f-body bump kit

[dhutton]

the link put up was to an f-body bump kit

My mistake. Sorry for all the confusion etc.

Don

[beater65]

I think I have came up with the setup I want to run. Need to run it past more experienced minds first... but hopefully its Kosher.

SPC-Upper arms 94320- $420/pr from SC&C
SPC- Lower arms 94320- $625/pr. from SC&C
ridetech Spindle 11009300- $400/pr. ridetech
CA steering arm 5755-A10-BSA from Chassisworks. No pricing yet. (hopefully around $200ish)

Figure $1700 total. vs


$1580 just for ATS SPINDLE!!!



This will allow me to run a standard coil spring, or upgrade to coil overs later. As well as retain stock brake setup for time being, obviously upgrade later.
SPC arms have improved caster built in, as well as infinite adjustability in their uppers. Also I can adjust my ride height with helical spacers for lower arms.
Here is break down, 2" drop in spindle, my current hotchkis springs 2" drop, and 1" drop in lower arms, so I will need to space up my spring to get me back to my current 4" drop.

[Rod]

I think I have came up with the setup I want to run. Need to run it past more experienced minds first... but hopefully its Kosher.

SPC-Upper arms 94320- $420/pr from SC&C
SPC- Lower arms 94320- $625/pr. from SC&C
ridetech Spindle 11009300- $400/pr. ridetech
CA steering arm 5755-A10-BSA from Chassisworks. No pricing yet. (hopefully around $200ish)

Figure $1700 total. vs


$1580 just for ATS SPINDLE!!!



This will allow me to run a standard coil spring, or upgrade to coil overs later. As well as retain stock brake setup for time being, obviously upgrade later.
SPC arms have improved caster built in, as well as infinite adjustability in their uppers. Also I can adjust my ride height with helical spacers for lower arms.
Here is break down, 2" drop in spindle, my current hotchkis springs 2" drop, and 1" drop in lower arms, so I will need to space up my spring to get me back to my current 4" drop.

just a side note....make sure with CA that the steering arm works with a ridetech spindle the steering arm holes on the ridetech spindle are a 1/2 lower than stock and that pushes the steering arm down....I now when i worked at ridetech we had the spindle on the shop chevelles and that drop on the steering arm worked as wanted with the stock steering arms ....I just dont know what spindle the CA steering arms are machined for? I know that he has some steering arms that are raised 1/2 inch....I just dont want you to negate any advantages that CA may have designed in...take pic of the install and let us know how it goes together

[beater65]

just a side note....make sure with CA that the steering arm works with a ridetech spindle the steering arm holes on the ridetech spindle are a 1/2 lower than stock and that pushes the steering arm down....I now when i worked at ridetech we had the spindle on the shop chevelles and that drop on the steering arm worked as wanted with the stock steering arms ....I just dont know what spindle the CA steering arms are machined for? I know that he has some steering arms that are raised 1/2 inch....I just dont want you to negate any advantages that CA may have designed in...take pic of the install and let us know how it goes together

Well, if I can get away with a stock steering arm, that would save me at least $200 I bet. That would be killer, i'll need to wait till end of this month to get some more info on the CA arm. I have a email to Mark at SC&C about this setup, curious what his take will be.

I will probably start a build thread when I decide on parts and it is closer to fruition.

Thanks for input. I feel like im closer to goal lol

[Rod]

Thanks for input. I feel like im closer to goal lol

just having a direction helps with the build process, and settles the grey matter

[marolf101x]

jarretts70,
"It's true the cost of a coil over setup is a big factor."
Yes, it can be. However, let's look at a few numbers. A few posts ago Beater came up with a front setup that included:
SPC-Upper arms 94320- $420/pr from SC&C
SPC- Lower arms 94320- $625/pr. from SC&C
ridetech Spindle 11009300- $400/pr. ridetech
CA steering arm 5755-A10-BSA from Chassisworks. No pricing yet. (hopefully around $200ish)
TOTAL: around $1700

If you look at our coil over system for the front of the A-Body you have:
Upper arms: $500
Lower arms: $700
Spindle: $400
HQ (single adjustable) coil over (whatever spring you want): $730
TOTAL: $2330

So if I subtract the cost of the coil over version from the first option I get $630.
So I look at that as I'm getting an engineered kit I know will work, adds caster, has a coil over, uses Delrin bushings, has an unbeatable warranty, and it costs $100 less than if I were to piece it together (as a coil over kit).
Albeit you loose the steering arm, but #1 I don't know what the bump steer curve is going to look like with parts listed above, and #2 I honestly don't think bump steer is a huge issue in these cars. If it were the many A-Bodies we competed with over the years would have been crap.
(we have the actual OE data somewhere. However, we originally tested the A-Body so long ago we kept notes on paper, not in the computer. A lot of these notes have been lost to time and/or our march forward with technology. Honestly, what good does the OE bump steer curve do for us now? I wouldn't be surprised if we cannot find it.)


"But also I'm a bit of a weirdo, I have a thing for stock looking muscle cars. When I do use aftermarket parts I usually try to hide them. I'm the guy who grinds & blasts the Edelbrock logo off a brand new manifold & paints it engine color....."
For you we have StreetGrip; everything you need for $2000 and maintains the OE look.
http://www.ridetech.com/store/1964-1...ip-system.html
Kit includes Delrin bushings for the OE control arms, tall ball joints to increase camber gain, progressive rate coil springs, RQ (single adjustable shocks), and sway bars.


"Costs aside, what's the real benefit of a coil over besides the adjustability? I get they're easier to adjust ride height and also to change springs if you had a need to change spring rates on a regular basis. But assuming the same spring rate is used does the coil over have a distinct advantage over a conventional coil spring (other than a bit of reduced unsprung weight)?"
Well, this is easy yet difficult to answer. If you look at just a traditional coil spring and shock compared to a coil over, they can be 100% equal. . .if the spring rates are the same, mounting geometry the same, shock the same, etc. However, that is never the case.
Looking at just shock/spring the advantages are:
-shock technology may be better (depends on what you can get that'll bolt into the OE car)
-spring rate availability (you now have the ability to increase wheel rates)
-solid mounting points (the more solid you mount the shock/spring the quicker it can react)
-less unsprung mass
And of course the biggest thing. . . -ride height adjustability


You need to look at the front suspension as a whole. Typically changing to coil overs requires replacing the control arms. This allows designers to do a number of things:
-move ball joints to increase caster
-utilize alternative bushings to keep geometry from moving (we prefer Delrin with Teflon as it's relativity stiff, wears like diamonds, and requires zero maintenance)
-move the coil over mounting point to improve motion ratio (the better the motion ratio the quicker the shock/spring is to react)
-make everything lighter, yet stronger than the OE parts
-and while you are changing other geometry areas you might as well add a tall spindle

For the argument of this particular post. . .how much of this is important in a strictly street car? Not much, EXCEPT RIDE HEIGHT ADJUSTABILITY. That one is always important.
However, I'm with you guys. . .I build my street cars as good as I can get them. So to me all this stuff is important.
I've been living the "both sides of the fence" deal for many years, and it always comes down to one question. . .
"can I engineer my own parts/kit that performs as well as or better than the aftermarket options, for less money than they are asking?" Most of the time the answer is no. Maybe I don't understand it enough to make it as good or better. Maybe I do, but it costs more to piece together a one-off kit compared to something the Aftermarket builds thousands of each year.

[Nicks67GTO]

I think I have came up with the setup I want to run. Need to run it past more experienced minds first... but hopefully its Kosher.

SPC-Upper arms 94320- $420/pr from SC&C
SPC- Lower arms 94320- $625/pr. from SC&C
ridetech Spindle 11009300- $400/pr. ridetech
CA steering arm 5755-A10-BSA from Chassisworks. No pricing yet. (hopefully around $200ish)

Figure $1700 total. vs


$1580 just for ATS SPINDLE!!!



This will allow me to run a standard coil spring, or upgrade to coil overs later. As well as retain stock brake setup for time being, obviously upgrade later.
SPC arms have improved caster built in, as well as infinite adjustability in their uppers. Also I can adjust my ride height with helical spacers for lower arms.
Here is break down, 2" drop in spindle, my current hotchkis springs 2" drop, and 1" drop in lower arms, so I will need to space up my spring to get me back to my current 4" drop.

If this is a budget thing, why not just run the SPC uppers and lowers with the stock spindle, tall balljoins and stock steering arms.... like Marc recommends with his stage 2 kit. I run that. It works fine. It's seen plenty of abuse. Then take some stock drum hubs, turn them down under 6" in outside diameter and save a pile of money on hubs. This will work fine for C6 conversions and save you 400 bucks. Find some used C6 front calipers and abutments on ebay or here. Email Tobin at Kore3 and have him send you the rest. If you have a GM rear axle you can run 2002 Fbody rear brakes which can be found for 150-200 bucks and rebuilt for like 25. For all intents and purposes they are almost identical as C6 rears and are a match for the C6 fronts. Find your rotors through the stop tech catalog and order through Summit racing and they'll match.

If you have stock 11" gm brakes they will work until you upgrade. I did that too for a while before I bought my 18" wheels and brakes (same setup I detailed above)

[Rod]

agree with you on many points here Britt, It seems that the OP had his mind made up, so I just tried to give solid advice and not sway his purchase decision, I sell ridetech, Hotchkis, UMI and viking stuff, but he's asking a guy who sells SPC stuff if SPC is any good? what do you think that guy will say?

jarretts70,
"It's true the cost of a coil over setup is a big factor."
Yes, it can be. However, let's look at a few numbers. A few posts ago Beater came up with a front setup that included:
SPC-Upper arms 94320- $420/pr from SC&C
SPC- Lower arms 94320- $625/pr. from SC&C
ridetech Spindle 11009300- $400/pr. Ridetech
CA steering arm 5755-A10-BSA from Chassisworks. No pricing yet. (hopefully around $200ish)
TOTAL: around $1700

If you look at our coil over system for the front of the A-Body you have:
Upper arms: $500
Lower arms: $700
Spindle: $400
HQ (single adjustable) coil over (whatever spring you want): $730
TOTAL: $2330

So if I subtract the cost of the coil over version from the first option I get $630.
So I look at that as I'm getting an engineered kit I know will work, adds caster, has a coil over, uses Delrin bushings, has an unbeatable warranty, and it costs $100 less than if I were to piece it together (as a coil over kit).
Albeit you loose the steering arm, but #1 I don't know what the bump steer curve is going to look like with parts listed above, and #2 I honestly don't think bump steer is a huge issue in these cars. If it were the many A-Bodies we competed with over the years would have been crap.
(we have the actual OE data somewhere. However, we originally tested the A-Body so long ago we kept notes on paper, not in the computer. A lot of these notes have been lost to time and/or our march forward with technology. Honestly, what good does the OE bump steer curve do for us now? I wouldn't be surprised if we cannot find it.)


"But also I'm a bit of a weirdo, I have a thing for stock looking muscle cars. When I do use aftermarket parts I usually try to hide them. I'm the guy who grinds & blasts the Edelbrock logo off a brand new manifold & paints it engine color....."
For you we have StreetGrip; everything you need for $2000 and maintains the OE look.
http://www.ridetech.com/store/1964-1...ip-system.html
Kit includes Delrin bushings for the OE control arms, tall ball joints to increase camber gain, progressive rate coil springs, RQ (single adjustable shocks), and sway bars.


"Costs aside, what's the real benefit of a coil over besides the adjustability? I get they're easier to adjust ride height and also to change springs if you had a need to change spring rates on a regular basis. But assuming the same spring rate is used does the coil over have a distinct advantage over a conventional coil spring (other than a bit of reduced unsprung weight)?"
Well, this is easy yet difficult to answer. If you look at just a traditional coil spring and shock compared to a coil over, they can be 100% equal. . .if the spring rates are the same, mounting geometry the same, shock the same, etc. However, that is never the case.
Looking at just shock/spring the advantages are:
-shock technology may be better (depends on what you can get that'll bolt into the OE car)
-spring rate availability (you now have the ability to increase wheel rates)
-solid mounting points (the more solid you mount the shock/spring the quicker it can react)
-less unsprung mass
And of course the biggest thing. . . -ride height adjustability


You need to look at the front suspension as a whole. Typically changing to coil overs requires replacing the control arms. This allows designers to do a number of things:
-move ball joints to increase caster
-utilize alternative bushings to keep geometry from moving (we prefer Delrin with Teflon as it's relativity stiff, wears like diamonds, and requires zero maintenance)
-move the coil over mounting point to improve motion ratio (the better the motion ratio the quicker the shock/spring is to react)
-make everything lighter, yet stronger than the OE parts
-and while you are changing other geometry areas you might as well add a tall spindle

For the argument of this particular post. . .how much of this is important in a strictly street car? Not much, EXCEPT RIDE HEIGHT ADJUSTABILITY. That one is always important.
However, I'm with you guys. . .I build my street cars as good as I can get them. So to me all this stuff is important.
I've been living the "both sides of the fence" deal for many years, and it always comes down to one question. . .
"can I engineer my own parts/kit that performs as well as or better than the aftermarket options, for less money than they are asking?" Most of the time the answer is no. Maybe I don't understand it enough to make it as good or better. Maybe I do, but it costs more to piece together a one-off kit compared to something the Aftermarket builds thousands of each year.

[marolf101x]

Yes, obviously my opinion is biased as I was in charge of a lot of the ridetech product, so there's a lot of personal pride in those parts.
However, I've been open about my bias, and as you know, I try to tell you how it is regardless of who made it.

I tend to use our products to make a point as I know them intimately.
If anyone has questions about any other parts post them up. I'll answer what I can so long as I know the part. If you ask about "part X" and I've never seen it or dealt with it I'll tell you I just don't know on that one.

My main point to all of this is that I've tried to be the guy to save a few bucks piecing all this stuff together and getting it to work correctly.
However these days I'm MUCH more inclined to purchase a kit. Most kits these days are pretty damn good, they aren't really that expensive for what you get, and I don't have to spend time figuring it out when I should be taking my kids to the zoo or something like that.

[jarretts70]

Britt, I looked hard at the streetgrip setup, I figured it was right up my alley. Watched all the videos. As I recall the kit was announced a couple months before they became available (I know that's not unusual). At that time I don't think final pricing for the kit had been announced yet but was rumored to be around the 2K mark.

A few months later one of the local places that sells ridetech products had it in their monthly sale flyer....for 3400 dollars. Plus tax... Not going to lie, I thought that was a bit outrageous. And to be honest after seeing the $3400 price tag I never even bothered to see what it would cost to buy it straight from you guys or thru Summit...

[Rod]

A few months later one of the local places that sells ridetech products had it in their monthly sale flyer....for 3400 dollars.

I dont think ridetech has a street grip over 2900 and thats for the trucks, chevelle kits run 2000, camaros kits run 2500...I have them on my website, Suspension Geek no tax from me and I can get you free ship on most kits....most...not all

[dhutton]

Britt, I looked hard at the streetgrip setup, I figured it was right up my alley. Watched all the videos. As I recall the kit was announced a couple months before they became available (I know that's not unusual). At that time I don't think final pricing for the kit had been announced yet but was rumored to be around the 2K mark.

A few months later one of the local places that sells ridetech products had it in their monthly sale flyer....for 3400 dollars. Plus tax... Not going to lie, I thought that was a bit outrageous. And to be honest after seeing the $3400 price tag I never even bothered to see what it would cost to buy it straight from you guys or thru Summit...

3400 Canadian dollars?

Don

[jarretts70]

Yep, 3400 Canadian...but to be honest I'm rounding off. It might have been $3379 or something like that. I don't remember exactly, it was quite a few months back.

Take the price of a part in American dollars. Add 25% for exchange rate, another 5% sales tax, and brokerage fees at the border which can run anywhere from a few bucks to a few hundred. All of a sudden that $4000 coil over kit is six grand....ugh.

[jarretts70]

And to be fair to ridetech I've never looked around further. I should do my homework to see if anyone else around here is selling their stuff & look at the price.

[jarretts70]

Also, gotta say thanks to Nick for chiming in. I've read your build thread all the way thru a couple times. Your car is great!

[beater65]

If this is a budget thing, why not just run the SPC uppers and lowers with the stock spindle, tall balljoins and stock steering arms.... like Marc recommends with his stage 2 kit. I run that. It works fine. It's seen plenty of abuse. Then take some stock drum hubs, turn them down under 6" in outside diameter and save a pile of money on hubs. This will work fine for C6 conversions and save you 400 bucks. Find some used C6 front calipers and abutments on ebay or here. Email Tobin at Kore3 and have him send you the rest. If you have a GM rear axle you can run 2002 Fbody rear brakes which can be found for 150-200 bucks and rebuilt for like 25. For all intents and purposes they are almost identical as C6 rears and are a match for the C6 fronts. Find your rotors through the stop tech catalog and order through Summit racing and they'll match.

If you have stock 11" gm brakes they will work until you upgrade. I did that too for a while before I bought my 18" wheels and brakes (same setup I detailed above)

I Don't know ANYONE building a car that doesn't have a budget of some sort.

My current situation is I have a fairly large to-do list to get ready for powertour this year. I can't just drop 3k+ on suspension and get rest of my issues addressed. I absolutely want a well put together suspension. Do it once and do it right is a great theory even though it rarely works out that way...lol

You have presented another valid option for me to look into, and I appreciate the input.

[TechGuy]

I think I have came up with the setup I want to run. Need to run it past more experienced minds first... but hopefully its Kosher.

CA steering arm 5755-A10-BSA from Chassisworks. No pricing yet. (hopefully around $200ish)

.

Just got the pricing.. sorry for the wait.
http://www.cachassisworks.com/c-1339...oem-style.aspx

[beater65]

Well,
gathered more info in my quest to find the right setup. I talked to Craig at UMI suspension today. Again a wealth of knowledge and advise from their personal cars and what has worked and what hasn't.

I find that all the info ive gathered. The conclusion as with most things. This is no right/wrong answer of course, but rather a what suits your budget and planned use of the vehicle.

In my case, 90% street driven. with hopefully occasional auto-x day here and there.


To make a quick summary of what i have found, and it seems to be a consensus among the knowledgeable people i have talked with.

#1: These cars need camber gain improvements. You can achieve that with tall ball joint setups, or Tall spindle setup.

#2: Caster improvements are also needed. These are achieved with an upper control arm with additional caster built into it, plus adjustable options (SPC 94320, or UMI 4056-1 are 2 examples) Seems most lower arms don't change any from stock, purely uppers. Lower change would be to make use of Coil overs, or just wanting a non-stamped arm.

#3 Bumpsteer is a mythical creature than can only truly be tamed with expensive bumpsteer gauges. So don't sweat it as much as i was lol
Seems like every car/setup will ultimately be a little different. But seems to be a rule of thumb is to attempt to have the tierods as close to parallel with lower control arm will get you very close.


These are just my conclusions so far in my investigations. Take them with a grain of salt. But numerous reliable sources have been spoken with to gather what i have found so far.

[Nicks67GTO]

Well,
gathered more info in my quest to find the right setup. I talked to Craig at UMI suspension today. Again a wealth of knowledge and advise from their personal cars and what has worked and what hasn't.

I find that all the info ive gathered. The conclusion as with most things. This is no right/wrong answer of course, but rather a what suits your budget and planned use of the vehicle.

In my case, 90% street driven. with hopefully occasional auto-x day here and there.


To make a quick summary of what i have found, and it seems to be a consensus among the knowledgeable people i have talked with.

#1: These cars need camber gain improvements. You can achieve that with tall ball joint setups, or Tall spindle setup.

#2: Caster improvements are also needed. These are achieved with an upper control arm with additional caster built into it, plus adjustable options (SPC 94320, or UMI 4056-1 are 2 examples) Seems most lower arms don't change any from stock, purely uppers. Lower change would be to make use of Coil overs, or just wanting a non-stamped arm.

#3 Bumpsteer is a mythical creature than can only truly be tamed with expensive bumpsteer gauges. So don't sweat it as much as i was lol
Seems like every car/setup will ultimately be a little different. But seems to be a rule of thumb is to attempt to have the tierods as close to parallel with lower control arm will get you very close.


These are just my conclusions so far in my investigations. Take them with a grain of salt. But numerous reliable sources have been spoken with to gather what i have found so far.

I can't speak for other arms but the SPC lowers add + caster.