L&H A-body spindles

[dhutton]

Beater, I'm not trying to hijack your thread but I've been thinking about the whole bump steer thing:

Here's what I'm thinking: why can't we simply heat & bend the steering arms up or down as required? I know that seems like a crazy idea at first but before laughing consider this: the stock steering arms are forged steel. Hot rodders have been heating and bending forged steel axles for ever, that's how you make a dropped axle. They also heat & bend forged steering arms, shock mounts, etc. all the time. In fact, the way to adjust the camber angle on vehicles with solid axles (like a vintage Ford) was to bend the axle in a press. I think this is still how it's done on solid axle vehicles (like a heavy truck).

I think it might be easier to use a bumpsteer kit:

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/b...4/applications

Don

[beater65]

I think it might be easier to use a bumpsteer kit:

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/b...4/applications

Don

I thought that same thing.

Until I spoke with Mark at SC&C, those bumpsteer kits actually move the tierod opposite way they need to go to correct issues. He said those actually makr it worse lol

[Twentyover]

http://www.ridetech.com/store/ridete...dles-pair.html

Our spindles are built for a factory A body disc brake setup, they're a tall spindle, and are a 2" drop.

Josh-

What's SIA? What hub does it use?

[jarretts70]

I don't get those bumpsteer kits at all, at least as they apply to A-bodies. All they do is lower the tie rod end, and as noted above that makes the issue worse!

Beater I think you're exactly correct, custom steering arms would be the solve the problem of using existing spindles like the ridetech. Wish I knew more machinists!

I wonder if the Chassisworks "bumpsteer corrected" steering arm will be adaptable to ridetech spindles? $400 bucks worth of spindles, another 450 ish for the SPC upper control arms from SC&C, and a couple hundred bucks (assumed) worth of steering arms from Chassisworks. For around a grand that could be a pretty decent setup that lets you keep your existing brakes.

[beater65]

I don't get those bumpsteer kits at all, at least as they apply to A-bodies. All they do is lower the tie rod end, and as noted above that makes the issue worse!

Beater I think you're exactly correct, custom steering arms would be the solve the problem of using existing spindles like the ridetech. Wish I knew more machinists!

I wonder if the Chassisworks "bumpsteer corrected" steering arm will be adaptable to ridetech spindles? $400 bucks worth of spindles, another 450 ish for the SPC upper control arms from SC&C, and a couple hundred bucks (assumed) worth of steering arms from Chassisworks. For around a grand that could be a pretty decent setup that lets you keep your existing brakes.

From past investigating, I highly doubt the billet steering arm from CA will work with a cast Spindle. I looked at that 6-8 months ago, for attempting getting a corrected arm for my stock style drop spindles, and no go.

[marolf101x]

After I read through this discussion I think you guys are missing a number of key points:

Bump Steer (general info):
Bump steer is one of those suspension geometry measurements everyone grabs onto as it’s easy to visualize, and relatively easy to measure. Keeping bump steer at a minimum is the general goal, but some bump steer is acceptable. . .how much depends on what you are doing with the car.
Bump steer is only marginally important when you are braking in a straight line (I’m talking performance driving here. . .if you have enough bump steer to make the vehicle dart around on the highway you have too much!) What is more important is what the bump steer does when the car is under dive and roll, as it’s turning a corner. If there’s a small amount of bump steer, and it goes toe out, it’s probably ok.
If there’s a lot of bump steer, or if it goes toe in, it’s probably not ok.

Control Arms:
Yes, control arms are expensive. However, in a properly designed control arm set, you cannot just add an upper control arm to the OE lower control arm. Muscle cars suffer from lack of caster. So the good control arm companies have moved the ball joints on both the upper and lower control arms to add caster by rotating the spindle.
If you use an upper that has had the ball joint moved, and pair it with an OE lower arm you may have a few issues:
1-you don’t get the caster the car needs
2-the wheel may no longer be centered in the wheel well
3-you may experience ball joint bind


ridetech Spindle:
SAI/KPI: 8 degrees
Hub: anything designed for 64-72 A-Body, or 67-69 F-Body
These were originally designed for/on the GM A-Body platform. Though we have optimized it for use in the GM F-Body with our TruTurn kit, and the C2/C3 Corvettes with our TruTurn kit (this kit also uses a billet steering arm).

We’ve run our spindles on A-Bodies longer than we have F-Bodies. Anyone remember our light blue 66 Chevelle, or the GoodGuys RS 70 Chevelle? Both those cars won a lot of events a few years ago.
Now, that was with our control arms as we need them to eliminate ball joint bind.

[beater65]

Fantastic information here Britt.

Thank you for contributing.... Long story short, needs to purchased in a kit with pre-planned geometry already built into setup.


Even with this info, im still struggling. I just don't like any kits that ive found for one reason or another. and sounds like I may get myself into a pickle just buying random parts.

[jarretts70]

Hey Britt, thanks for chiming in. A little education is never a bad thing!

I've got a couple thoughts/questions. First, I understand your points regarding about bump steer. I believe that on a street cars like mine (which will use a lot of OEM or OEM style parts) totally eliminating bump steer is not really practical or even really necessary. That said, having owned one of those twitchy cars I'm sensitive to it.

Regarding control arms/caster: to increase positive caster the goal is to roll the top of the spindle rearward. To do this you would pull the upper ball joint slightly rearward, while pushing the lower balljoint slightly forward. In turn, the angle of the ball joint within the control arm would be slightly rotated clockwise (when viewed from the side) so that at the mid range of suspension travel the ball joinst are in the middle of their range of motion (more or less). Is this correct?

[TechGuy]

The new GM A steering arm (5755-A10-BSI ) is being made to work with OEM style spindles, as well as our new spindle.

[beater65]

The new GM A steering arm (5755-A10-BSI ) is being made to work with OEM style spindles, as well as our new spindle.

Fantastic.

[marolf101x]

Bump steer on street cars:
I've seen a few cars come into our shop complaining about poor ride quality and "darty-ness". Most of these were a while back and were on air (before we and many other vendors started offering such complete, well designed kits).
Some of these were so terrible we just measured with a tape measure. . .they would move the tire 1" on each side (2 inches total) when the suspension was compressed 2-3 inches from ride height.
This will create one hell of a ride when you start hitting bumps and road irregularities!

For a strictly street car you want bump steer as low as you can get it, but in reality it needs to be less than the tire can "squirm" (that's the easiest way I can think of for everyone to visualize this). If the geometry bump steers the tire toe out 0.125", but the tire can move 0.5" or more, will you notice the bump steer?

If the bump steer is pretty low, a proper alignment has more effect on "darty-ness" than anything.


Control Arms and Caster:
You are 100% correct. . .if you view the car from the side, visualize the spindle and ball joints. To add caster you rotate the spindle about the centerline of the wheel (you want the wheel/tire to stay in the same place). This pushes the upper ball joint back and the lower ball joint forward. Depending on how much the ball joints move, the ball joint angles will likely need adjusted as well. You want the ball joints "centered" in every direction when at ride height as it mitigates ball joint bind as best you can.

[Rod]

I thought that same thing.

Until I spoke with Mark at SC&C, those bumpsteer kits actually move the tierod opposite way they need to go to correct issues. He said those actually makr it worse lol

poor information....untrue...specify the car, works with 1st gen f-body, not with A-body

[beater65]

poor information....untrue...specify the car, works with 1st gen f-body, not with A-body

Its not poor information. Because this thread is clearly listed as A-body discussion, those kits shouldn't even be listed for A-body because its obviously NOT an F-body.

[beater65]

Hope to be able to retain current ride height when its all said and done. Even though ive been told it to low to perform optimally

[raustinss]

Pretty sure I read somewhere that there's a redesigned steering arm for the AFX spindles.... Not a **** here but a question ....so some people will drop 5000 on rims and tires , 15 000 on an engine but a couple grand for spindles which hold the front end of the car up isn't worth it

[jarretts70]

Britt - thanks for the response. I've spent way too much money over the years on cool looking parts that didn't perform as advertised. Now that I'm older and wiser I try a lot harder to understand the "why' a product works...I think Beater and I are looking for a similar setup. We both want a tall spindle/control arm combo that allows us to retain conventional coil springs & OEM style brakes. I would like to minimize bump steer but I don't need to go on a crazy quest to eliminate it. And as you point out, we should be thinking about more positive caster. From what I see, ridetech has spindles and UCA's that fit our needs, but does not sell a lower arm that is compatible with coil springs - only bags or coil overs. What can you recommend?

FWIW, on my GTO I'm only looking for a ride height a couple inches lower than stock, be it with spindles or springs.

Mike - Thanks for the info. Do you have a timeline as to when the spindles & arms will be ready for sale, and pricing?

Beater - swear I didn't intend for your thread to turn into a discussion on suspension theory...your car is great!

[jarretts70]

Ryan - your right. Some people WILL spend 5K on wheels and 15K on an engine....

I'm not one of them. I've got a wife, 2 kids, and a mortgage. I have to make every dollar count on my hotrods... So if a $400 spindle will work for me just as well (and just as safely) as a $1500 one, then yeah, the extra money's not worth it to me.

[TechGuy]

Britt - thanks for the response. I've spent way too much money over the years on cool looking parts that didn't perform as advertised. Now that I'm older and wiser I try a lot harder to understand the "why' a product works...I think Beater and I are looking for a similar setup. We both want a tall spindle/control arm combo that allows us to retain conventional coil springs & OEM style brakes. I would like to minimize bump steer but I don't need to go on a crazy quest to eliminate it. And as you point out, we should be thinking about more positive caster. From what I see, ridetech has spindles and UCA's that fit our needs, but does not sell a lower arm that is compatible with coil springs - only bags or coil overs. What can you recommend?


Mike - Thanks for the info. Do you have a timeline as to when the spindles & arms will be ready for sale, and pricing?

The latest word is the end of this month.

http://www.cachassisworks.com/Attach...XXX_DS_WEB.pdf

[marolf101x]

There are traditional coil spring control arms available (I'd look at Summit Racing brand myself, but that's just me). . . however, they were likely not designed as a kit, or they may not have all the "bells and whistles" the sponsors of this forum offer, which means it's up to the customer to educate him/herself enough to know how to check everything to make sure it all works.
We all know, control arms don't cost $1K to build. What you are paying for is our expertise, our knowledge, our experience. . .and in my case my wife, 3 kids, my mortgage, health insurance, too damn many project cars, the american dream. . .all that!

There's no doubt if you educate yourself enough to at least ask the right questions you'll be able to save a few bucks. Especially on this forum where everyone is polite and information flows freely (just ask Ron Sutton any question you want. He'll post a head spinning answer in less than a day!)

In my personal life I have to live by a pretty tight budget. As such, if I were doing something like this (which I am nearly everyday on my own projects), I'd put together the best geometry I could find at the lowest dollar. Typically that's going to be set up for a coil over, as those who want handling, and will pay for it, change to coil overs. You can put together a relatively inexpensive set of coil overs if you know enough to ask the right questions, and thereby save a few bucks.

Or, you could save your pennies, buy a trusted, dependable coil over with a virtual lifetime warranty (1,000,001 miles!).
I know it's a terrible plug. But I've live on both sides of this fence. I know that if I save my money and purchase the right parts once, my wife will only chew my butt once, and will end up costing a ton less in the end.
If I hide 14 purchases of crap parts from her I have a delayed pissed off wife holding a credit card statement and a pile of crap parts in my shop!

[jarretts70]

Hey Britt, thanks for the honest reply.

It's true the cost of a coil over setup is a big factor. But also I'm a bit of a weirdo, I have a thing for stock looking muscle cars. When I do use aftermarket parts I usually try to hide them. I'm the guy who grinds & blasts the Edelbrock logo off a brand new manifold & paints it engine color.....

Costs aside, what's the real benefit of a coil over besides the adjustability? I get they're easier to adjust ride height and also to change springs if you had a need to change spring rates on a regular basis. But assuming the same spring rate is used does the coil over have a distinct advantage over a conventional coil spring (other than a bit of reduced unsprung weight)?