68 C10 front suspension questions- road course bound.

[GlennL]

New to the site. Been lurking here for several months.
Background.......
I raced wheel to wheel for 10 years w/ NASA in the Camaro Mustang Challenge class in a 4th gen Camaro. In 4 straight appearances @ the National Championships I finished 1st twice and 3rd twice. All this just to say I am not a newb with regards to driving on the track. I have over 15 years experiance in a 4th gen Camaro on track.
My new prodject is a 68 lwb roller. Looking to do some upgrades to the front suspension so it will be fun to drive on the street (high spring rates are ok for me) and be very capable in a non-wheel to wheel track environment. Time trials at most.

Looking @ the Ride Tech Stronge Arm front a arms. Not sure if I want to use their coilovers or build my own. Looking to pair those up with the Wilwood C10 Pro Spindles. Any reasons this would not be a good combo?
Front stearing is still a manual box. Not sure where I am going from there. A rack would be nice...... A stock power set-up with a quickener may be where it ends up. I live near PSC so it may be worth a trip up and talk with them. They have done some work for me in the past.



Anyways........ would love some feedback on the front suspension.

[Slick68]

From my personal experience, I recently upgraded to a full Total Cost Involved suspension. I wanted my truck more streetable, so I stayed with single adjustable coilovers. However, triple adjustable shocks are available as an upgrade. They designed their own custom spindle to work with the Wilwood hubs and 6 piston calipers. The front suspension includes a power rack and pinion. I have no idea what the ratio is, but it turns in quick!!! I would suggest boxing and bracing the chassis, though.

https://totalcostinvolved.com/produc...evy-c10-truck/

[Mtrhd329]

Grab a beer and google the "make it handle" thread in 62-72chevytrucks

Worth a few days read. Tons of info on these trucks and what works. If you want a bolt in option there are many out there now. If you are looking to build your own there are a lot of ideas in there. I started with those ideas and went through three different frame and suspension setups and have now built my own frame to do what i need.

[GlennL]

Grab a beer and google the "make it handle" thread in 62-72chevytrucks

Worth a few days read. Tons of info on these trucks and what works. If you want a bolt in option there are many out there now. If you are looking to build your own there are a lot of ideas in there. I started with those ideas and went through three different frame and suspension setups and have now built my own frame to do what i need.

Thanks. Been there done that.
That is surely a 6 pack thread.....

Thinking for cost reasons of going with the QA1 or Ride Tech arms, Wilwood Pro Spindles, and the No Limit Rack kit.

Price isn't set on the QA1 stuff yet. Been emailing with them.
Worried about hub durability with the sealed hubs of the Wilwood spindle.

[RobNoLimit]

Plenty of people have been down this road. How good can you make the OE geometry work? You can increase the caster (A-arms or mod) you can increase the camber gain (very slightly with upper arm mounting) and you can address steering issues (No Limit R&P). That is all. Your spec build sheet, as close as I could get, totals about $4284. - (RT Strong arms = 1500, RT coil-overs and springs = 680, RT front sway bar = 400, Wilwood Spindle = 755, No Limit R&P = 949). For that you get the best-ish OE modd'ed truck suspension around, Poor Ackreman and a ground clearance issue. Don't forget no brakes yet.

....... VS........ No Limit Wide Ride IFS. Use by winners like Chris 'Smitty' Smith and Wes 'D' Drellishack on their trucks to pull way out in front of the competition. Vastly improved geometry, including Ackreman, 3" more ground clearance, and 180 lbs lighter, WITH 12" brakes, for $3795. Almost $500 less. Yes, MORE Performance for LESS $$

Yes, do your homework for what ever style of build you want to do , but compare everything for what it really is. You won't end up in the winner's circle by following the slow kids. Study the winners. *OK, let me have it

[Sales-TCI-Eng]

You won't end up in the winner's circle by following the slow kids.

LMAO.... That made my day Rob, thanks.

-J

[GlennL]

Plenty of people have been down this road. How good can you make the OE geometry work? You can increase the caster (A-arms or mod) you can increase the camber gain (very slightly with upper arm mounting) and you can address steering issues (No Limit R&P). That is all. Your spec build sheet, as close as I could get, totals about $4284. - (RT Strong arms = 1500, RT coil-overs and springs = 680, RT front sway bar = 400, Wilwood Spindle = 755, No Limit R&P = 949). For that you get the best-ish OE modd'ed truck suspension around, Poor Ackreman and a ground clearance issue. Don't forget no brakes yet.

....... VS........ No Limit Wide Ride IFS. Use by winners like Chris 'Smitty' Smith and Wes 'D' Drellishack on their trucks to pull way out in front of the competition. Vastly improved geometry, including Ackreman, 3" more ground clearance, and 180 lbs lighter, WITH 12" brakes, for $3795. Almost $500 less. Yes, MORE Performance for LESS $$

Yes, do your homework for what ever style of build you want to do , but compare everything for what it really is. You won't end up in the winner's circle by following the slow kids. Study the winners. *OK, let me have it

Shock that Rob saw and posted on my thread.

Rob - can I give you a call? Your cost numbers dont match mine. Your stuff was the first place I shopped.

I am most definitely not shopping to pad the signature with a mod list......

[Hugger67RSSS]

Take Rob's advice, been there done all the above. His option is a very very good one and great customer service to go along with it! I would not run a truck on a road course with your experience with a stock crossmember

[RobNoLimit]

Shock that Rob saw and posted on my thread.

Rob - can I give you a call? Your cost numbers dont match mine. Your stuff was the first place I shopped.

I am most definitely not shopping to pad the signature with a mod list......

Sure. Shop # 865-940-1503. that's what we do.

[GlennL]

Called and talked w/ a nice gal there.
Again, let her know I appreciate her time.

For now, it is looking like I will spend my money w/ you.


A question I forgot to ask.......
Does this kit allow the caster and camber to adjust independent of one another? Is it a problem if it doesn't? What is the camber range and caster range? Is it possible to turn the eccentric shaft once @ the track for more camber/caster (toe must be re-set - I am sure) to get the camber I want/need then adjust back for the drive home?
I live very close to 2 road courses here in Texas.

[RobNoLimit]

Yes, they are separate. We use a 'Cam' or 'Concentric' for the adjustment of the upper arm. The cam is carried in the 'upper cam receiver', and is locked in place with two set screws. The normal Camber range is from +.5 to -2 degrees, this is adjusted by ROTATING the cam in the receiver. This action moves the entire upper A-arm 'IN' or 'OUT'.
There are two ways to set the Caster. 1) The base set up. Our upper A-arm is designed to be 'flipped' over, to change the caster range. Also, the Cam can be 'flipped' in the receiver tube to change the Caster range. In the base set ups, you could choose one of three ranges. A) A-arm with the 'short' tube forward, and Cam with the Wrench Flats towards the back = 3* to 6* Positive Caster. B) Long tube forward, Wrench Flats on the front side = 5* to 8*, and C) Long tube forward, Wrench Flats back = 7* to 10*.
Within the base Caster set-up, the Caster can be fine tuned or track tuned by loosening the set screws and 'sliding' the Cam forwards or backwards in the receiver tube. At the track, You need a Sharpie (to mark the cam for your street alignment) a 3/16" allen wrench and a 9/16" box end wrench (to unlock and lock the cam), A crescent wrench or a No Limit Cam Wrench ($12) (to rotate the cam for Camber or to hold the Cam steady during Caster adjustment) and a medium rubber mallet (to tap the A-arm assembly forward and back for Caster adjustment). A 7/8" and 9/16" open end wrench is needed for Toe adjustment. When you track day is done, re-set the cam back to the 'street' marks on the Cam/Receiver, re-set the Toe, if changed, and drive away. It's pretty easy.

[GlennL]

So time for a bit of an update.
Ordered the Wide Ride front w/ Wilwood brakes shortly after the previous post.
Got it installed and the build stalled due to the condition of my LQ4 LS I planned to install. Ended up ordering a 408 LS and diverted funds and time completing the SB to a point where I could start getting it set in place.
The 408 turned out to be a problem as the Holley pan required to clear the stroker crank does not clear the Wide Ride crossmember. Trimmed the vertical stiffener down a 1/2" only to find the pan is on the rack now. I plan to use some offset bushings for the rack. Not sure it will help much. Gotta fix that later.

The problem @ hand now is the angle of the engine. I was expecting to get the motor level w/ the frame (area under the cab used as a ref). Right now I can only get to 5 degrees and that is cutting out a 2" section in the floor behind the High Hump trans tunnel I have. I have a Magnum T56 behind the motor.

This is my first LS conversion and I am not happy w/ the angle of the engine. Tell me why I don't need to worry too much about this......

[79 Camaro]

I've got a LS/T56 magnum in my 68 C10 SB. High hump. 6" drop in the back. Per my drive shop I needed a 3"5 diameter drive shaft. It comes very close to the trailing arm cross member at the top. I was able to cut away a small area at the top of the hole in the cross member for clearance. If I was to do it again I would use one of the aftermarket cross members for more clearance. I used ECE LS engine mounts. Also used a Fbody pan. I had to slot the frame holes to get it to fit. To the mounts could of been designed to set the engine lower in the frame. My engine angle is a touch less than 4%. No vibrations at all.

[GlennL]

Thanks for the input.
My trans shifter bolts are now just touching the high hump tunnel and I am @ 4.5 degrees. Without cutting up the No Limit engine mounts on the Wide Ride crossmember, I just don't see it getting better than this. If I did cut it up, I would still have rack clearance issues. I just installed some 85 Mustang Offset Rack bushings that dropped the rack down to get me 1/4" clearance.

I guess I was just hoping I could get a "close to zero" engine angle (I assumed I would) and a little disappointed I couldn't.
I assume I will be OK @ 4.5 degrees as long as I have a 1.5 degree up pinion angle or better.
It is a LWB truck and I plan to use a large 1 piece driveshaft.

[79 Camaro]

You need to look into the drive shaft. Again my drive shaft guys do a calculation based on length and max engine rpm. My rev limiter is set at 6200. Because of you LWB (12" longer than my SWB) you may need a larger diameter drive shaft.
I'd give Rob a call to see what he recommends.

[RobNoLimit]

Hopefully some insight will help. Here's something everyone needs to keep in mind. This is Hot Rodding. Henry Ford never designed a Model-A with a small block in it. As the saying goes, "One good mod usually requires another. - and so on."

The install of a WideRide IFS raises the front of the motor appx 1". (the crossmember is raised for ground clearance and geometry, and the rack comes up with it. It has to go somewhere) With the slightly deeper pan for a stroker crank, the rib on the crossmember will need to be ground. (you can also put 1/4" spacers under the motor mount, but this will lift the engine) So, if the front of the engine is lifted some, the trans mount will need to come up. A spacer between the trans case and rubber mount is the easy way. And, this may/may not mean that the trans hits the floor. OK. You are probably using a trans that GM never intended to be in there anyway. So, the IFS swap, motor swap, trans swap now requires some sheet metal work. That's Hot Rodding. Also, check the driveshaft clearance at full suspension compression, it may require some more room as well.

As to the 'Angles'. Take a look at this drawing. The goal is to get the Pinion centerline to be parallel to the Crank centerline at Ride Height. So, if the engine is at 4* (up in front, down in back), then you would want the pinion to be the same 4* (up in front, down in back). That is Goal #1. Next, you want the U-Joint angle to be less than 5* from the crank or pinion angle. That's Goal #2 Now consider this, If you are in a truck that has the engine at 3*, (and set up correctly, parallel to the pinion, less than 5* u-joint angle) and you drive up a hill with a 5* incline, your engine/pinion are now at 8* - BUT, they are still parallel, and set up correctly. And, if you go downhill on a 7* decline, the crank pinion is at -3* (but still parallel and correct). Keep that in mind. The key is to know the axle elevation at ride height, set the pinion parallel and check the U-joint angle.

BTW. I would call Inland Empire Driveline and talk to them about a one piece driveshaft for the LWB. And, how much HP you plan on. They may recommend a two piece shaft, which requires a slightly different angle set up plan.

[79 Camaro]

I did a LS swap into a 67 Nova with a Heidt front subframe and suspension. I had to use a Autocraft oil pan to clear the rack. I don't know if that would work with your stroker but it might be worth giving them a call.

[GlennL]

Thanks Rob.

[Frank ZX]

I think most people swapping parts get frustrated.
Rob is right, this is HotRodding!
I'm a weirdo cause I love when I run into a issue. There's always a solution and in the end its rewarding.
You'll have to check out my build to understand. I've cut my transmission tunnel and I'm about to do some more cutting. I want better ergonomics. I'm lowering my seats a little more and getting the shifter closer. Also moving the pedals around. I drive and autocross my truck often. There's no better feeling than driving a badass ride to the track, running it all day and then driving it back home.
You have to be patient to get good results.
Nothing good is easy and nothing easy is good;)