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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by TonyL
    you see? THIS is the kind of article we need to see in PHR. Actual comparative tests. Side by side. I'd love to see guys from here put their cars up against new cars.
    Sport compact or one of those mags has an Ultimate streetcar shootout. tested the hell outta the cars, and the best one, (an S2000) could barley keep up with a corvette by the numbers.

    I should try to organize something next season where Steevo (streetfytr68) could compare his '68 against my '01 SS. I think it would be a great comparison, but my SS also isn't stock (and will be heavily modified by next season), so it would not be entirely fair to the arguement at hand. It would be a cool test to see, though. The '68 would probably come out on top in most if not all categories, I would think, as even though power levels will be similar by next season, his car is much lighter than mine.



  2. #42
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    sure, but you missed the "if they weighed the same" part. what if the wheels (hypotheticly) 17" - 20" weighed the same tires and all? (not practical I know, but for the sake of the discussion)
    Tony Langlois
    1966 Corvair Monza

  3. #43
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    Tony, I didn't miss that part. It doesn't matter. Even if the 20's were slightly less in total mass than the 17's, they still swing a larger arc and therefore it takes more energy to slow down/change direction.


    Take a 2lbs weight and hang it from a 5" peice of string. How much energy does it take to get it moving/get it to stop? Now increase that strings length to 8", did you notice the difference? Same principle.

  4. #44
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    Do you s'pose we could all come to agreement in calling a high perfomance 2+2 Coupe a GT?

    "Gran Turismo", as defined by the italians who invented the term is exactly that.....sounds like a Camaro to me no?
    True T.

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  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by TonyL
    sure, but you missed the "if they weighed the same" part. what if the wheels (hypotheticly) 17" - 20" weighed the same tires and all? (not practical I know, but for the sake of the discussion)
    Yes there would be a performance advantage to the 17's even if they weight the same and have the same dia tire. Moving the majority of the weight outwards increases the moment of inerita by the square of the radius. Figure the hoop weights at least 12lbs on an average wheel, move that out 1.5", then multiply that # by 4 and the inerita changes quite a bit.

    Even using similar tires I would be surprised if you didn't see at least 1 sec reduction in lap times on an average 90sec road course going from 18's to 20's. And it could easily be a lot more than that depending on the car and track. Obviously crazy powerful cars won't notice the weight as much but it does make a difference.

    You don't realise how much of an effect wheel weight has till you really start playing with it, cyclist know this better than just about anyone.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by ProStreet R/T

    You don't realise how much of an effect wheel weight has till you really start playing with it, cyclist know this better than just about anyone.
    As a former, not current, but hopefully future, national level DH mountain bike racer and road cyclist (I don't race road though) I can attest that wheel weight is a HUGE factor....but not as big a factor as RIDER weight. A current detriment to my personal performance.
    True T.

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  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Damn True
    As a former, not current, but hopefully future, national level DH mountain bike racer and road cyclist (I don't race road though) I can attest that wheel weight is a HUGE factor....but not as big a factor as RIDER weight. A current detriment to my personal performance.
    OT thread jack- You race DH ehh? Back when we actually had races in SoCal and so forth I raced Semi-Pro for a couple years, did the norba circuit and all that fun stuff. Rider weight is subjective, i'm 6'3" 205ish but pretty lean and it works well for DH and bike handling. Definitely not a climber but thats what ski lifts are for.

    I really should start riding again, kinda pointless have a couple $6k bikes in the garage collecting dust. /threadjack

  8. #48
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    We are not building racecars. We are not building streetcars. We are creating something else entirely.

    I am chasing a dream I had at 15 years old of rolling around in a car with a certain visual esthetic and visceral feel that makes me think of a time when American cars were the envy of the world. I don’t care if it is true or not.

    My car is not realistic.

    It gets poor gas mileage, the tires are expensive and only last 15k miles, it hates my wallet, it occupies my day dreams, the gas fill behind the license plate won’t hold all the modern gas nozzles in place so I have to sit there and hold it during the painful $50+ fill up. I am sure I am losing my hearing and the speeding tickets do not exactly encourage AAA to charge me lower insurance premiums.

    My car is freedom.

    I lost a good friend a while back. Getting in my car and driving over Angeles Crest Hwy to Palmdale and back was one of the most cathartic things that I have ever done. Before I stepped into the car everything was out of control, but once I got behind the wheel of the car that I built to handle and respond to my driving style over the last decade, that control came back to me.

    There are a lot of things in life that are horrible, ugly and beyond my control, but my car is not one of those things. It is a thing that can be mastered and changed to suit my needs and temperament.

    To me the reason that boards like pro-touring exist is so that we can have leverage the experiences of others when attempting to refine out own little piece of the world (our cars).

    Pro-Touring is not a style of car.

    Pro-Touring is a community of people.

    People are not homogeneous, so it makes no sense to think that the extension of out imaginations should be. I am someone who believes that with the right mind and focus a goal can be accomplished.

    It is of little help to berate or belittle someone because they do not poses the same amount of knowledge as you. Not everyone has an engineering background, or racing experience, or knows how to operate a buffing wheel, or can afford to drop mad bills on their car, but combined we have all of these things.

    Lets redefine Pro-Touring as the exchange of the skills you have for the skills you need.

    … and just as a disclaimer, I personally refer to my car as a Hot Rod, because that is what my grandfather calls it and I like the bond that it creates when I use his words.

  9. #49
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    Pro-Touring is not a style of car.

    Pro-Touring is a community of people.
    I like that.
    Tony Langlois
    1966 Corvair Monza

  10. #50
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    Very cool.
    True T.

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  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by TonyL
    you see? THIS is the kind of article we need to see in PHR. Actual comparative tests. Side by side. I'd love to see guys from here put their cars up against new cars.
    Sport compact or one of those mags has an Ultimate streetcar shootout. tested the hell outta the cars, and the best one, (an S2000) could barley keep up with a corvette by the numbers.
    I will 2nd this! Steve, get on it bud! You can buy those rounds of beer right before they begin racing

    I started one of the last threads on this topic, and after reading and re-reading the responses, I realized something. I think only the guys who invented the term should be able to define it. After all, it is their term....not that I would really care though. I will admit that I was originally attracted to the PT scene by the looks of what I was seeing (TT2s, large brakes, racing interior, etc...) but as I continued reading and learning, I realized how important those played a role in a safe and enjoyable driving experience.

    I can GUARANTEE that no matter how much this topic is debated, it will eventually become more than one build type. It will branch off to something that is performance based, and into something that is more of a 'poser', as some of you have dubbed (no pun intended) it. There may be more catagories, but the mere fact that we cannot agree on a single term illustrates this.

    The sad part, is that if history tells us anything, is that when this does happen, those of us with performance/poser cars will end up in rivalry with those who are against the other type. Those we now consider friends, could be in the other group that knows 'nothing' or is wasting their money on a 3000lb flashy looking paper weight (i will probably be in this group).

    I really hope that these things don't alienate potential PT guys. Afterall, the more the marrier...it helps bring down the cost of parts.

  12. #52
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    bear in mind that if most of us went to the track a guy with serious seat time under his belt could probably jump in a dodge neon and spank our asses.

  13. #53
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    And you downhill guys, I never got any good at it but I did some downhilling on the east coast, mount snow and plattekill. Its fun but my buddies were pro level and i always felt like the little ufo in close encounters, struggling to keep up.

    My santa cruz mostly sits dormant in the garage and navyflier is buying my azonic.

    See photo of me going over the bars for a change.

    sorry, thread jack over.

  14. #54
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    Geoff,

    I liked your post. Pro touring is a community. I'd never thought of it that way, but I think you're right. Maybe that's why emotions often run high on the subject as people think they are being shut out due to an equipment choice or such.

    That being said, I think there is nothing wrong with definition discussions. It helps us all discover what it is (and isn't lol) that we share in common. All good.

    Just back to tech for a moment: it seems to me that some didn't realize the effect of large wheels. They really do have performance implications. My take is that is the choice of the car builder, but at least understand the compromises you're making.

    We covered this in the other thread (briefly), but larger rotors have the same effect. Obviously they are subject to the same r squared laws of physics. With larger rotors, one gets more brake (in theory), but you pay for that with corresponding losses in forward and lateral acceleration.

    jp
    John Parsons



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  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by TonyL
    sure, but you missed the "if they weighed the same" part. what if the wheels (hypotheticly) 17" - 20" weighed the same tires and all? (not practical I know, but for the sake of the discussion)
    The 20 would still be at a disadvantage due to the weight being further away from the center of the wheel..
    "A ship in port is safe, but that's not what ships are built for."

    1968 Track Rat Camaro:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGHJ5c1yLIo&t=2s

    1971 Chevelle Wagon with a few mods:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBVPR3sRgyU

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by gchandler
    … and just as a disclaimer, I personally refer to my car as a Hot Rod, because that is what my grandfather calls it and I like the bond that it creates when I use his words.
    That is great. My 5 year old calls my 77 ‘Daddy’s Racecar’, even though there is nothing race about it. At all. Zilch. Nada. But it makes him smile, so it is now known “the racecar”.

    On the topic of larger tires, at one point some years back didn’t they reduce the size of the front tires on the Vette a bit and to gain performance, especially top speed?
    Scott from NJ.

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    I'm so glad I took a look inside your showroom doors

  17. #57
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    : it seems to me that some didn't realize the effect of large wheels.
    Just to be clear, I fully understood this concept. I just wanted to turn this into a tech discussion and it appears to have worked.

    all anyone really needs is to play with a gyroscope. the bigger the turning wheel (like a bike wheel) The more difficult it is to make it change direction.
    Tony Langlois
    1966 Corvair Monza

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by gchandler
    ...I am chasing a dream I had at 15 years old of rolling around in a car with a certain visual esthetic and visceral feel that makes me think of a time when American cars were the envy of the world. I don’t care if it is true or not...

    ...My car is freedom...

    ...but once I got behind the wheel of the car that I built to handle and respond to my driving style over the last decade, that control came back to me...It is a thing that can be mastered and changed to suit my needs and temperament...

    ...To me the reason that boards like pro-touring exist is so that we can have leverage the experiences of others when attempting to refine out own little piece of the world (our cars)...

    Pro-Touring is not a style of car.

    Pro-Touring is a community of people.

    People are not homogeneous, so it makes no sense to think that the extension of out imaginations should be. I am someone who believes that with the right mind and focus a goal can be accomplished...

    ...but combined we have all of these things...

    ...Lets redefine Pro-Touring as the exchange of the skills you have for the skills you need.

    … and just as a disclaimer, I personally refer to my car as a Hot Rod, because that is what my grandfather calls it and I like the bond that it creates when I use his words...
    What he said...

    Everyone should read that post twenty times, or until the light bulb comes on! That covered most of the reasons I am even on this site. It's not because I love a certain build style or era of cars. It's not because I have a performance goal that hangs over my head like a ruler-clad school teacher waiting to rap my knuckles every time I stray from the ""lesson plan". It's because all you knuckleheads are here - everyday!!! In three years (since I first "discovered" automotive forums) I have found only two boards that I MUST frequent daily, and this is one of them. I finally came to the conclusion that it's not what the board is about that matters most to me - it's WHO is on that board. Keep that in context, I don't see myself joining ProSewing-dot-com because I like the people there.

    I think that when the Pro-Touring definition is written it should be more about the type of people that are here. This is really about how we approach and handle the things in ours lives, as opposed to how we think a car should be built. The vehicles are merely a medium to express that mindset.

    In the tradition of a good soapbox preacher, let me "close" with this:

    Why, why, why do humans have such a need to divide and separate themselves?!?!?! This site has some of the best people I have ever encountered in my 41 years, yet there is this strange need to lock the doors, close the windows, and pull the blinds on the rest of the hotrodding community. Since the physical characteristics of this niche are all encompassing, I would think all facets would be welcome.

    To me, it seems like rather than trying to restrict the site to the discussion and development of a specific approach, there would be sub-sections (with corresponding forums) devoted to all the major build styles. A Pro-Street sub-section, with discussion, tech, events forums. A Street Rod sub-section, a Mod Rod sub-section, a "formal" Racers sub-section (dedicated racers with track-only race car), etc. All of the specific areas of hot rod building that come together to form Pro-Touring should be welcomed, appreciated, and accepted here. Everything overseen and accountable to Pro-Touring/G-Machines, but HERE TOGETHER. If the airbagged Mod Rod, Street Rod, and Pro Street guys, and the companies that cater to them, were constantly subjected to true performance junkies maybe they would put more function in their forms. Strength is in numbers and the manufacturers would likely respond to the demand with more highly functional parts that also look good.

    Pro-Touring/G-Machine/Street-Fighter is the only build style that purposely takes EVERY facet of the hobby into account. Why not welcome every "face" of the hobby to learn from each other and grow together?
    Todd Perkins
    todd's hot rods

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuhlryde
    I will 2nd this! Steve, get on it bud! You can buy those rounds of beer right before they begin racing
    Well, we do try and test cars whenever we can. This can really only be done on cars that are done locally (that we shoot at California Speedway) since we have to set up timing equipment and such. On "location" shoots doing testing is very hard because we do not have the equipment and it is often hard to find a place to do it that doesn't cost a small fortune. We have test data on a 2000 Z28 Camaro and it is interesting to see how a certain car stacks up against it. We also now have test data on a new '05 Mustang so that when I start my Stang project I will have some sort of benchmark for what I want to be better than.

    Oh, and a lot of guys don't want to beat on thier cars. Remember guys that we are in the minority as far as the rest of the car hobby. Most guys just wanna polish and cruise. Just something to keep in mind.
    "A ship in port is safe, but that's not what ships are built for."

    1968 Track Rat Camaro:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGHJ5c1yLIo&t=2s

    1971 Chevelle Wagon with a few mods:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBVPR3sRgyU

  20. #60
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    Oh, and even though I hate definitions the act of defining pro-touring should not drive people away from the site. People should come here and take what knowledge from the site that they feel they need to make thier car the way they want. That might end up being a no-compromises pt car or a street machine that handles and brakes way better than it did from the factory.

    The real job of this site is to dissiminate knowledge and also build relationships between people that share a common love of cars. I see nothing wrong with somebody running 19's or 20's so long as they know that it is a compromise in performance. What we want to prevent is someone running 20's and not being educated about what is involved. I feel our number one goal is to increase awareness of what it takes to perform well and let the individual person decided how far they want to take that knowledge.

    Very few people care if they are 1 second slower on a lap since very few people can or even want to run thier car on a track..
    "A ship in port is safe, but that's not what ships are built for."

    1968 Track Rat Camaro:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGHJ5c1yLIo&t=2s

    1971 Chevelle Wagon with a few mods:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBVPR3sRgyU

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